OKC Police & Fire needs

[Hawk405359]

This discussion just makes me glad I don't live in the voting area and don't have to deal with all these issues. As badly as Iron sounds when he starts trolling, he makes a solid point about working on needs vs. wants. You expand too quickly and everything goes to hell. What's worse for the city, MAPS 3 failing and not getting a central park, or schools being underfunded and crime rate increasing after it did? Perhaps more methodical, measured growth is what's needed?

And yes, there is a relation between MAPS and any future potential bonds passed, especially in a conservative state. There have been a lot of stories out there this year about different city and county services that are unable to do things they need to do because they don't have funding. The pot is limited, do you ask citizens to pay for something temporarily to get a park downtown and the start of a trolley system? Or do you ask them to pay for a jail, for juvenile services, and for public safety?

If they're willing to pay for both, then fine and good, but if people feel they are being overtaxed, regardless of what the actual tax rate is, then they're less likely to approve future projects that add to it. If I were running an essential city service and needed more funds, MAPS passing would scare me too, because it makes people less likely to want to pay more.

[Larry OKC]

...The pot is limited, do you ask citizens to pay for something temporarily to get a park downtown and the start of a trolley system? Or do you ask them to pay for a jail, for juvenile services, and for public safety? ...

That's one area where the timing of this vote is critical for the City. Not to mention the time crunch by the expiring Ford tax. If they can get the wants vote approved and out of the way, the needs vote (County Jail), isn't directly their problem. On one of the MAPS 3 websites (City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing) it truthfully mentions that OKC has one of the lowest combined tax rates in the Metro area, currently #16 (6th place when all of the Cities that are tied with the same tax rate). One reason for this is Oklahoma County doesn't currently have a county sales tax. But IF a county sales tax gets passed, (presuming a penny) then OKC's tax rate will be the second HIGHEST in the Metro area. Bethany, Choctaw, Harrah, Nichols Hills, The Village and Warr Acres would be tied for 1st place. Granted a county sales tax isn't guaranteed to be proposed much less passed. But a combination of sales tax and bond issue were mentioned as a possibility in an earlier article.

The Mayor spoke more than once about "voter fatigue" and proceeding with a MAPS 3 (apparently he isn't concerned with that any more). We had the General Obligation & School bond votes in late 2007, The Ford tax & Tinker bond votes in 2008... That goes with my "tipping point" theory that at some point, voters will say "enough". So if you can get your issues out there 1st, before that tipping point is reached, the better your chances are.

Not saying this is good, bad or indifferent, it is just a strategy.

[Hawk405359]

I agree with the tipping point theory, and I think that's exactly why people who run city and county services may be anxious about MAPS 3. If they are forced to cut back on services, that will probably have a larger negative affect than a park or convention center will have as a positive effect.

Let's go away from police and fire for a bit. There was a story in the media a while ago about the county juvenile affairs office. They were saying that, because they don't have any money, the only thing they can afford to do is throw kids in lockup, where they're more likely to get associated with gangs and drug dealers. Other counties have half-way houses, programs, and other things that Oklahoma County doesn't, and the inability to do anything else may be creating more criminals. Is that more important to the people living here than a central park or a new convention center? Those things are nice, but one may lead to higher crime and increased stress on existing services while the other may, at some point, possibly, lead to higher tax revenues 10 years in the future.

You look at what's proposed and some of the measures seem obvious, they're attempts to attract different pockets of voters. If I were running a city service, I'd be worried about the flashy measures being passed possibly at the expense of the unsexy but necessary ones. If people are willing to pass both, fine, but until that opportunity happens I would be anxious about it.

[betts]

Hawk, although what you say is true, (excluding the fact you're mixing county and city services), there will never be enough money collected anywhere to create a perfect society. Government services will always be inadequate and short staffed, short of tax rates virtually everyone here, including us Democrats, would consider unacceptable. But a city which doesn't appeal to it's residents, which is losing population, has a lower tax base and subsequently even less money to fund services. You have to create a vibrant, improving city to bring in the population to fund services, through property and sales taxes. So it's a bit of a Catch-22.

[Rover]

Now that OKC has developed a highly positive image and is one of the top ten cities to open a business in and rated one of the top city economies in the country, is the most recession proof, etc., the city employees want to reverse the trend? I just don't get it. They have a right to share the fruits, but not to hijack the fruit truck. It is this kind of self centered view that kept this city in poverty for the first 100 years of its history. Surly we aren't so stupid as not to learn.

[Hawk405359]

Hawk, although what you say is true, (excluding the fact you're mixing county and city services), there will never be enough money collected anywhere to create a perfect society. Government services will always be inadequate and short staffed, short of tax rates virtually everyone here, including us Democrats, would consider unacceptable. But a city which doesn't appeal to it's residents, which is losing population, has a lower tax base and subsequently even less money to fund services. You have to create a vibrant, improving city to bring in the population to fund services, through property and sales taxes. So it's a bit of a Catch-22.

I include county services because they require a huge chunk of the same people as city services to approve a tax increase. You can't have a bond issue for a service for Oklahoma County if you don't win Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City will still be taxed by it, and if enough people are pissed off in the city limits, it doesn't matter how many Edmond residents want it to pass. So tax rates are related in that way. Further, aside from the Sheriff's office, county services do affect city residents. They share a lot of the same services, the jail, the juvenile affairs, the health department, ambulance services, etc. The city isn't in a bubble, it's incorrect to act as if it is.

Secondly, I never said you could collect enough money to create a perfect utopia, nor did I imply it or say we should strive to do so. In fact, trying to pretend that that's the argument is the polar opposite of what the point is, continuing to try to make that argument against supporting city services is ridiculous. I have no idea why you keep acting like that's some sort of reasonable and viable argument, it's not and never will be.

The point is that there are needs and wants for a city, and the citizens of a city need to look at what will provide the biggest impact, either negatively or positively, and address that. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's do it a different way, if you were moving to a city, what would be a bigger factor for you? If a city had a high crime rate and bad schools or if the city had sidewalks and a big park downtown? It's going to be the crime and schools, those are two of the biggest factors people look at when moving to a city. No one is saying police need a harrier jet for foot pursuits, they're saying that if city services are unable to adequately serve the citizens of a city, it won't matter how big of a central park there is, people aren't going to want to live there. People may go to the part, but they're going to live out of the city base to do that. Thus it's a whole lot bigger issue than "they'll never be perfect, we shouldn't add funding for them" like you're making it. Throwing money at the situation actually solves some problems. There's a difference between being perfect and being adequately supported. Some of the services just arent' adequately supported and you don't have to undo all the progress of the past 10 years to rectify it.

Acting like MAPS 3 as the only way the city can improve is even more short sighted. So if it doesn't win the entire city will turn to blight overnight? No, they'll try something else. And not improving other, less sexy areas may have a negative affect that far offsets any positive affect MAPS 3 might potentially have. It does no one justice if you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend like it's the only thing that can be done to make a city better.

[flintysooner]

No, they'll try something else.

That, to me, is the essence of the problem.

MAPS gives all of us who live and work in the Oklahoma City area an opportunity to participate in something very large that benefits our entire community, promotes projects that could never be undertaken in some other way, and continues the "can do, will do" attitude that has distinguished us from the rest of the country.

The opponents to MAPS want someone else to do these things for them it seems to me.

[Rover]

It's not the ONLY thing that will work to improve our city, but Maps3 is organized, planned out and ready to go. Every other plan in the past is self serving to a few people and their private agenda. If others have a competitive plan they should organize and promote it. Sitting back and trying to subvert other good plans without putting out a competitive plan is the chicken way out. It is easy to pick at certain details, but let's see some legitimate alternative for keeping this city growing, if indeed so many think this is an unworkable or not the best plan.

[andy157]

Below is a copy of questions I asked in a different post:

I think there are a couple of other questions here. How have expenses per fireman and per policeman increased? Is it possible that salaries, pensions, and benefit costs have risen faster than the funds earmarked to support them? Is it possible that the costs of hiring each individual are such that the funds theoretically available to hire additional personnel are being used to support those already employed or retired? I don't know the answers, but think the questions are at least worth asking.

The other questions I have are: How many people retire after only 20 years of service? What is the average age at which firemen retire? Do they receive a full pension for the remainder of their life, even if they retire at age 38, which seems to be about the earliest age at which a fireman can retire?

It seems to me that if people can retire well before age 65, which is the average age of retirement for most of us, and if they receive a pension for the rest of their lives, that puts a huge burden on the funds required to support a reasonably sized staff. Now, I don't know if that is the case. But, I would like to know.

Betts, you ask; How have expenses per fireman increased?

Without a doubt, expenses have increased. How come? There are many reasons. Obviously wages, healthcare, and other benefits have risen. One example of benefits would be when Firefighters incentive pay increases due to a higher level of licensure. Like going from EMT-Basic to EMT-Paramedic. Some Firefighters receive no incentive pay for EMT-Basic. EMT-Paramedic receives $140 per payday. Although that is below the average for EMT-Paramedic, it is close. The average is approximately $400 per month. Therefore, $280 per month is about 75% of what is paid around the country.

Another example of rising cost would be the high cost of protective gear, tools, and equipment. Additionally, costs for Firefighters can increase as well. Firefighters buy their own food, TV’s, newspapers, rags, paper towels, etc. Therefore, when the cost of normal household items increases the cost to Firefighters goes up because a Firefighter maintains two households. One at home and one at the Fire Station.

If the question is meant to focus on an OKC Firefighters pay, Firefighters in Oklahoma City are paid the average of 10 comparable cities within and without of the State of Oklahoma. By State law, any wage increase is based upon available funds and the City’s ability to pay.

I assure you that over the years both sides have won and lost on that caveat. There have been times where the City claimed to have no money and we have proved different. There have also been times we have claimed they did and been proved wrong. However there have been three times that I know of for sure when they made the claim and we agreed and went on down the road, quietly and peacefully.


You ask; Is it possible that salaries, pensions, and benefit costs have risen faster than the funds earmarked to support them?

Is it possible? Yes it is. However, because of the “Market” system we use it is not very probable. The City decides each year how much money will be dedicated to the Fire Department budget. Every year I was involved between 1999 and 2007 the OCFD has been told they need to submit budgets that cut a given percent from the budget. The budget does increase. However, let us say that the costs of goods, services, and capital expenditures for the rest of the world go up 5%. The Fire Chief asks for a 5% increase in his budget. The City Manager gets the budget request then says OK, but first you must submit a budget that cuts 2% out of last years budget. The Fire Chief goes back to his office and cuts some pens, paper, cancels his contract for upkeep on the copier and does not replace some of the worn out equipment that he wanted to replace.

Next year the costs of goods, services, and capital expenditures for the rest of the world go up 5%. The Fire Chief asks for a 5% increase in his budget. The City Manager gets the budget request then says OK, but first you must submit a budget that cuts 2% out of last years budget. The Fire Chief goes back to his office and hunts down a pen, finds some paper, rewrites his budget cutting back on some repairs that are needed for Fire Stations and does not replace as many of the Fire Trucks that he needed to replace. The Chief then drives down to the City offices to make copies of the budget for the City Manager because his copier no longer functions.

Next year the costs of goods, services, and capital expenditures for the rest of the world go up 5%. The Fire Chief asks for a 5% increase in his budget. The City Manager gets the budget request then says OK, but first you must submit a budget that cuts 2% out of last years budget. The Fire Chief goes back to his office and hunts down a pen, finds some paper, rewrites his budget cutting back on some repairs that are needed for Fire Stations and does not replace as many of the Fire Trucks that he needed to replace. Additionally, he closes a Fire Station because it has been condemned due to lack of maintenance and repairs. There are two Stations currently closed, 6s and 7s, not to mention the 2 that should have been built from the 2000 bond election. Lets not forget the 2007 bond election that calls for 3 more; hopefully we will have those by 2020.



This pattern continues for ten years with the current City Manager. At some point, there are not sufficient supplies. The Firefighters have no parts for the rigs that need repair and some rigs are inoperable. Every Fire Station in the city is in some state of disrepair. From time to time over the years it has become so bad, I have seen times when a Station had to beg and borrow (or steal) toilet paper from another Station. Manpower has been reduced to a level of 904 that is well below the 948 number the City promised the citizens to get a ¾ cent dedicated sales tax for public safety, and way below the 999 we had in 1999.

Then an economic downturn hits and the City Manager asks for a 2% cut on a budget that was cut 2% at the start of the year. The Fire Chief has nowhere to cut. Therefore, he starts sending Firefighters home. Response times increase because Firefighters respond on broken down rigs and use equipment that is worn out and in need of replacement. Lives and property are lost but the City Council loves this City Manager because no City Manager is able to run a City as cheaply as he can and they are so detached from the citizens they are supposed to serve they do not see the problems.

Councilmen\Councilwomen sweep in make a speech and as citizens are discussing the issues the City is facing they get in their cars and leave. They do not need to be there because the City Staff will give Council a report on how the citizens love the job they are doing. Council members then get in their cars leaving a council meeting feeling all warm and fuzzy and hear on the radio that Firefighters are unhappy.

They do not like Firefighters because they are not making them feel warm and fuzzy like the manager. Council then goes to the manager and tells him he better get these Firefighters in line. The manager then threatens the Firefighters with further cuts if they do not fall in line with his version of city management. He does that on the same day as a significant amount of money is transferred to the general fund from the ¾ cent public safety sales tax fund. The manager then reports to the Council and media that these Firefighters are bankrupting this City. The manager does the above while starting his reign at less than $100,000 per year. He is currently making approximately $250,000 per year. Doing all of this while sitting on 36 million dollars of unencumbered funds.

Need I go on? Probably not.


You ask; Is it possible that the costs of hiring each individual are such that the funds theoretically available to hire additional personnel are being used to support those already employed or retired?

See the answer above. There is a point where funds are not available when the above system of management is practiced. We are at a point when service to the citizenry is diminished. Firefighters have a hard time dealing with that when money that is intended to fund the Fire service is diverted to non-core pet projects or private economic development. The funds are not theoretically available. The funds are available. They are just not used for city services. The funds are redirected to the items the Manager and Council find more important than city services. Case in point the City’s handling of the ¾ cent sales tax and G.O. bond issues. I will leave those for another time.

However, I will leave you with this one example. Simply put the ¾ cent sales tax was meant to fund, hire, train, and equip a minimum of 200 additional Firefighters over and above 748. In 2003, they were paying for 170 +/- Firefighters and 14 secretaries out of that fund, with plans to add 10 secretaries to the ¾ sales tax budget in 03/04. IMHO those actions show a blatant disregard for the wishes of the Citizens. However, I have no doubt some will disagree with my opinion.

Sorry for the long post

[andy157]

It's not the ONLY thing that will work to improve our city, but Maps3 is organized, planned out and ready to go. Every other plan in the past is self serving to a few people and their private agenda. If others have a competitive plan they should organize and promote it. Sitting back and trying to subvert other good plans without putting out a competitive plan is the chicken way out. It is easy to pick at certain details, but let's see some legitimate alternative for keeping this city growing, if indeed so many think this is an unworkable or not the best plan.

As of last Thursday the Firefighters have presented the City with a fair and honest plan. The plan offers a solution to their problems. Lets see how the City responds.

[dismayed]

My opinion is that the unions don't think that sinking MAPS will cause voters to go out and give them a raise. It is clear that this is a strong-arm political tactic... they're hoping it will cause our city government to cave and give them what they are asking for without a public vote, and that they can wrap all of this up soon without actually having to do a front-on assault of MAPS 3. Since neither side probably wants to be attached to a MAPS failure, I would say they probably have a decent shot at getting their way.

It's pretty obvious what is going on. It doesn't take a detective to figure it out.

[andy157]

My opinion is that the unions don't think that sinking MAPS will cause voters to go out and give them a raise. It is clear that this is a strong-arm political tactic... they're hoping it will cause our city government to cave and give them what they are asking for without a public vote, and that they can wrap all of this up soon without actually having to do a front-on assault of MAPS 3. Since neither side probably wants to be attached to a MAPS failure, I would say they probably have a decent shot at getting their way.

It's pretty obvious what is going on. It doesn't take a detective to figure it out.

I think your right. I don't believe they are thinking that either.

[andy157]

My opinion is that the unions don't think that sinking MAPS will cause voters to go out and give them a raise. It is clear that this is a strong-arm political tactic... they're hoping it will cause our city government to cave and give them what they are asking for without a public vote, and that they can wrap all of this up soon without actually having to do a front-on assault of MAPS 3. Since neither side probably wants to be attached to a MAPS failure, I would say they probably have a decent shot at getting their way.

It's pretty obvious what is going on. It doesn't take a detective to figure it out.

In your opinion is there any chance the City may be somewhat culpable for some of this unfortunate situation?

[flintysooner]

In your opinion is there any chance the City may be somewhat culpable for some of this unfortunate situation?

Is it all about being right?

[Hawk405359]

That, to me, is the essence of the problem.

MAPS gives all of us who live and work in the Oklahoma City area an opportunity to participate in something very large that benefits our entire community, promotes projects that could never be undertaken in some other way, and continues the "can do, will do" attitude that has distinguished us from the rest of the country.

The opponents to MAPS want someone else to do these things for them it seems to me.

I'm not saying someone else would do, I'm saying the city would. If MAPS failed, city leaders wouldn't sit in the corner and cry about it, they'd be immediately working on how they could get it passed. The only difference is that they'd look at those who complained about what it did or didn't include and see what they could do to appease them. That's why I think the notion of it failing destroying growth is wrong.

If it failed, they'd be right back to try to get something passed again.

[gen70]

Lotta words...Smells like Boo.. Hoo.. Hoo.. When you choice a career, do you not know what your going to get paid? I want better money, better conditions (if I deserve it) but ,I don't demand that I get it. when it gets to that point--bail.. Hey..I do the best I can but, I don't whine..whine..whine..about it. If you don't like it get out. Politics make me sick.

[andy157]

Is it all about being right?

I'm not sure I'm following you. Right about what?

[andy157]

Lotta words...Smells like Boo.. Hoo.. Hoo.. When you choice a career, do you not know what your going to get paid? I want better money, better conditions (if I deserve it) but ,I don't demand that I get it. when it gets to that point--bail.. Hey..I do the best I can but, I don't whine..whine..whine..about it. If you don't like it get out. Politics make me sick.

Thanks for the advice.

[gen70]

No Prob...

[How to rock]

Current Oklahoma Representative Mike Reynolds & former Representative Wanda Jo Stapleton join the list of persons speaking out against MAPS 3. Check out the podcast entries at www.okcissues.com.

If this website does not work for you visit You Tube at the following links:
Mike Reynolds interview
YouTube - MAPS 3 / Representative Mike Reynolds Speaks On KTOK (Part 1) - www.okcissues.com
YouTube - MAPS 3 / Representative Mike Reynolds Speaks On KTOK (Part 2) - www.okcissues.com

Wanda Jo Stapleton
YouTube - MAPS 3 / Wanda Jo Stapleton Speaks On KTOK Radio - www.okcissues.com

[betts]

Wanda Jo doesn't lend credibilty to any issue. On the contrary.....

[iron76hd]

In your opinion is there any chance the City may be somewhat culpable for some of this unfortunate situation?

Great Question? No takers though.

If Devon, Cheasapeake, or the Chamber of Commerce members all came out publically and asked that the Mayor and Counsel address Public Safety immediately, I wonder how fast it would be addressed?

Answer the question logically and you'll soon get who's steering this city and it's not the citizens.

[iron76hd]

Wanda Jo doesn't lend credibilty to any issue. On the contrary.....
Today 02:00 AM

Betts who is credible in your opinion? Your list and some of the rest on this site is dwindling as you are discrediting every person with an opposing opinion.

I respect your opinion, despite not understanding your logic behind it.

Come on now. Not everyone with an opposing opinion is non credible.

[SouthsideSooner]

Great Question? No takers though.

If Devon, Cheasapeake, or the Chamber of Commerce members all came out publically and asked that the Mayor and Counsel address Public Safety immediately, I wonder how fast it would be addressed?

Answer the question logically and you'll soon get who's steering this city and it's not the citizens.

Sure...using your logic, the fact that they haven't indicates they dont see it as a big area of need and I'm not convinced it is either.

Where is the outcry from citizens about a lack of police and fire protection? Other than the unions and its members, it appears to be a non-issue with the general public and the media.

You and others want to try and paint this as an imminent crisis, where in reality, at least as it pertains to firefighters, it appears to primarily be about a small raise and an issue of having to work overtime which is mandated in the unions contract anyway.

The firefighters' frequent time-and-a-half overtime payments are legally required by federal labor laws and the annual collective bargaining agreement between the city and firefighter union.

As a result, nearly every city firefighter collected overtime between July 2008 and July 2009. Firefighters received overtime pay regardless of whether they worked more than scheduled because their union contract guarantees regularly scheduled overtime.

Because overtime hours are part of their regular schedule, firefighters often collect overtime while on vacation or personal leave.

Ward 1 Councilman Gary Marrs, a former fire chief, said it's not uncommon for city officials to gripe about firefighters collecting overtime "while sitting on a beach somewhere."

"The kind of contract they have, you couldn't find it in the private sector," White said. "It's easy to ask: 'Why are we doing this? How did we get into a situation to where we're paying people for time they're not working?'"

Read more: NewsOK

The unions threats against the city on the MAPS issue will backfire if they are successful in defeating the measure and will only serve to create a lot of ill will and a segment of the citizenry opposed to them that didn't exist previously.

[dismayed]

In your opinion is there any chance the City may be somewhat culpable for some of this unfortunate situation?

I guess my opinion is that when talks break down to the point where a scorched earth policy seems like the way out then both sides are probably culpable to some degree. If I'm trying to negotiate with someone on a business matter and they throw up their hands and walk away... yeah I'd probably be hacked off at them, but at the same time I'd really be doing some soul searching asking myself how the heck I allowed things to get to this point.

I'm kind of a big fan of "beer diplomacy" myself. Kind of hard to "screw the guy in the other department" when he's your best drinking bud.