NBA Players Think OKC is Boring...boo hoo

[dcsooner]

Look OKC is not the most exciting City, but, with continued investment by the citizens in the city (MAPs 3), OKC will improve by leaps and bounds. As an African American Sooner, I can understand why SOME players would find OKC boring, because it is! relative to larger more diverse and vibrant places.

[kevinpate]

I'm thinking truck in some hookers and blow.

trucks, hookers, blow and dives, all in one thread.
Almost sounds like yer already backs home hun.

[PennyQuilts]

trucks, hookers, blow and dives, all in one thread.
Almost sounds like yer already backs home hun.

I am so close I am covered with bruises from packing the first moving van!

[Midtowner]

These guys are multimillionaires. What's stopping them from putting their money where their mouths are and opening various venues to bring OKC up to their expectations?

[Larry OKC]

These guys are multimillionaires. What's stopping them from putting their money where their mouths are and opening various venues to bring OKC up to their expectations?

Good question!

[okcpulse]

I don't really take comments like the ones some NBA players allegedly said negatively, I see them as an opportunity to improve the city and make it appealing to a wider range of folks.

I can only speak for myself, but I understand where they are coming from with the 'boring' comments. There have been threads on this in the past... but something that I find disturbing about OKC is how much of our recreational activities revolve around eating, or drinking. It is great that we now have a few unique things here like the Land Run Monument and the OKC Art Museum that are places to go and wander around, but there really are not that many 'attraction' type places here. When I think of most major cities they all have their unique schtick. Seattle has its fish market on Pike Street and the underground city, San Fran has Fisherman's Wharf among other things, Chicago has so many places to just wander around and see from department stores to little locally owned shops to various museums... Los Angeles has the Hollywood strip, Beverly Hills, and so many more places, and so on. What is it that makes Oklahoma unique, and how can we make those things fun and interesting?

More 'fun' things other than just eating need to be brought into this town. The NBA is great, other sports activities are good, and so on. I often hear folks talk about Dave and Busters, and I think what they are really saying is that they would like to see more fun activities here in the city not necessarily that place in general. Miniature golf or whatever.... I mean it seems so odd that there are so few pool, shuffleboard, etc. type places around town, and the ones we have are usually in smoke-infested seedy atmospheres. Which leads to another issue... we just need more upscale options here. Upscale fun, upscale dining, upscale everything. I don't necessarily mean $100 a plate diners... just places that look nice and aren't run-down and cheap looking. It would be even better if we actually had top-notch cuisine in the city. We have places like that, but they are few and far between. Places that stay open past 9 p.m. would be good too. As I've mentioned in previous threads, I have taken friends and out-of-staters to Bricktown, supposedly our downtown entertainment district, on a Tuesday or Wednesday night before at 9 p.m., a full two hours before many of the restaurant's posted closing times, to find them already shut down. If it isn't a Friday or Saturday night places like Bricktown are just too inconsistent and local business owners aren't helping the situation by being flaky with their hours. I know, it's a catch-22, but how about just keeping a small skeleton crew around and actually meeting your posted hours.

But what I think is the most significant problem for young professionals in this city is that this city is, from top to bottom from ground up, built around older people and families. There is no single district where young folks are living, where they can be in close proximity to each other (which often leads to meeting new friends, pitching new business ideas, and on and on). Come on, how about JUST ONE district like that. The closest thing to that is Norman, but unfortunately you end up with a bunch of broke, whiny slightly retarded sorority and fraternity folks surrounding you instead of real young adults who know how to make money. There's no district here where you can walk out of your condo and, on foot, walk to a really cool place to shop, or eat, and so on. We are starting to see some of that with Bricktown, but we're not really there yet and unfortunately Bricktown continues marketing to the older families demographic with its price points and with the types of condo configurations and amenities that are being offered by builders down there. Bricktown is a great place to go if you're wanting some Mexican food, beer, or steak, but creative it is not. Once there are more ethnic places, eclectic little locally owned shops selling whatever, more activities, more museums, more public spaces and art, more things going on at all times of day and night and not just from 6 p.mm. to midnight on Friday and Saturday, more interesting people living near one another to get to know and talk to, then we will be a city that has something for the so called 'creative class.'

This isn't one of my more eloquently written posts, it is kind of stream of consciousness, but hopefully it gives some examples of some things that we are lacking.

Can you provide an example or a name of a "singles" type district? I would like to take a look.

As far as restaurant owners in Bricktown... that is becoming a problem. The Bricktown Association needs to be nailed with complaints, or even the owners themselves. I'm with Patrick... Bricktown as reached a stalemate and a lot of that is lack of vision on behalf of newer owners.

[kmf563]

hahaha. okclee - I agree. I am finding them to be pretty boring people and making pretty boring scores.

Boring people will always be bored. Apparently we don't know who they are so what's stopping them from going where they want and doing what they want?

I still go to the games and I know all of them aren't complaining. But it only takes one to make them all sound dumb.

[metro]

Allow to me to take a different tack...

I have not lived in OKC for a long time, but I wonder if OKC has developed a social culture for young people in their 20s and 30s to meet outside of a bar or a restaurant. Perhaps they have, but if not, perhaps my experience in St. Louis is illusrative of a cosmopolitan city.

In St. Louis, every cultural and charitable organization has a "Young Friends" group specifically for people in their 20s and 30s. YF of the Zoo, YF of the Art Museum, YF of Jazz St. Louis, YF of COCA (Center of Contemporary Arts)and on and on. There are - no exaggeration - 30 or 40 such groups. These groups all have regular inexpensive parties, maybe $10 or $20 or $30 specifically designed for networking and community building. I am not exaggerating when I say that on any given Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday night in the Spring, Summer and Fall, something social is going on. Sure there is eating and drinking, of course, but you would not believe the social, and importantly, business connections that are made at these parties. There is a whole huge cadre of young, socially aware, upwardly mobile people that rotate through all these events. To the point that, if you want to develop friendships and connections in St. Louis, you can go out and know that you will find friends on any given night.

Sure, I go to plenty of bars, concerts, plays, ethnic restaurants, but I always also have this option. Almost any night someone will call me and say "Are you going to ZooTini, (or COCAcabana or Party In the Park in Clayton...)"

There is even a "Young Friends Collaborative" made up of board members of all these groups, that have their own parties.

In addition, every neighborhood in St. Louis has music festivals or arts festivals or bar crawls all the way through the warmer months. And there are a thousand other young-oriented networking groups like Fuel, River City Professionals, St. Louis Ambassadors.

My point is, much like a small-town atmosphere in a big city, these types of events serve to bind young people to their community and make them feel really involved. You want to go to these parties and if you are tired and stay home, you feel like you missed something because the next day, the e-mails and texts will be flying about what a good time it was. Perhaps most importantly, these groups are also training the new generation of civic philanthropic leadership.

Again, I don't know if OKC has this kind of culture, but if it doesn't, it is missing out.

Yes, we have quite a few actually. They technical term for them are "Young Professionals", or simply "YP" groups. I was actually the first Executive Director for our first YP group, Alliance of Emerging Professionals (AEP), it's a fraction/shell of what it used to be, now that the Chamber of Commerce took it over. There are also other YP groups now, suburbs like Edmond and such have their own as well. There are also the "friends" groups as you mentioned, and more recently, PlayDate OKC (I'm married so have no use to go), but I know it's a raving success and one of the top Play Date type places in the country, it's brand new here and already over 1000 are attending the monthly event, even NBA players such as Durant, Green and a couple others.

playdateokc.com - Oklahoma City

I'm confident should MAPS 3 pass, it will solve a lot of the "wants" category. The mass transit alone will go a long ways in connectivity and walkability of tieing our hip districts together, and bring together the cohesion we seek. OKC still needs upscale shopping (including a WF type grocer) ANYWHERE, even if it's not downtown. More entertainment options as well that aren't clubs, such as Dave & Busters, more live music venues, etc.

[betts]

Part of the problem, I think, is that a lot of these single guys live in Edmond, in residential developments designed for families. Obviously, they think they can't live in Deep Deuce, but they'd have a lot more fun if they did. I talked to a friend who knows a bunch of them last night, and she said the married ones love it here, and she suspects it's the single guys who might be grumbling. She also said it would be nice if we had a few more jazz clubs that cater to people with higher end incomes. And, I suspect they'd like more hip shopping, and more high end shopping. It's annoying, because we've supported stores like Chanel and Balliet's for years and years, probably because our dsiposable income is about the same as any other place, but retailers can't look past average income data.

[soonerguru]

The thing is, a lot of us love the state the way it is. To want to improve it is one thing. To want to fundamentally change it into something else is something entirely different. Part of the problem is that certain people are very quick to label it, call it (and its people) ugly names, and just essentially trash it. Results in many people getting defensive.

And part of the problem is that many of us love it BECAUSE it isn't like so many other places. We have been there, done that, and think OKC is just better, for us. There isn't any other place quite like it. Does that make us rednecks, backwards, yokels or what have you? Some seem to think so. But plenty of us have lived other places and have something to compare it to and still reach that conclusion. We didn't read about other places in books or go on vacation somewhere and see how the tourists get around. Trashing your home is just classless.

Who's trashing it? Look, from what I've read here from people who have lived elsewhere is that they like OKC because it is cheap and "quiet." Well, if we are to be a city, there will be some parts of it that are bustling. If you don't like that, move to Deer Creek.

Allowing the city to become a more urban, grown-up version of itself will ensure it's still here and functioning in fifty years, because that is what draws talent employers seek.

I suppose someday we may look back and lament the loss of weedy parking lots, strip malls, neglected streets and sidewalks and endless highways going nowhere, no pedestrian activity, obesity and miles of fast-food restaurants. But I'm willing to take my chances.

[OKCMallen]

The original post is basically flamebait. Seriously, who cares?

[metro]

Allowing the city to become a more urban, grown-up version of itself will ensure it's still here and functioning in fifty years, because that is what draws talent employers seek.

I suppose someday we may look back and lament the loss of weedy parking lots, strip malls, neglected streets and sidewalks and endless highways going nowhere, no pedestrian activity, obesity and miles of fast-food restaurants. But I'm willing to take my chances.

Well said. Regardless of what the old guard wants for the future (no offense), they will eventually die off, and the city will be left to operate by us what are currently young professionals, and the city needs to have more amenities, density, sustainability, walkability, and other quality of life issues to keep enough of us around in 30+ years to run this City.

Personally, I won't miss the endless sprawl, large chunks of city that become dilapidated within 20 years, miles of fast food restaurants, empty lots, vast parking lots, etc.

[jc4455]

Exactly what is it that you would be looking for that the 20-30 age group would want that is the type of thing this type of project can fund? Maybe give us an example? Just remember, by the time these projects would be completed, you probably won't be a 20-30 something but a 30-40 something - maybe married, maybe with children - and with totally different priorities.

A thriving night life and a huge selection of places to shop will never happen without an influx of residents into the downtown area.

Well, for one, it would be really nice if there was a place to go, not necessarily a bar or club, where we could hang out, watch a game, have a meal, just be ourselves, without having to worry about offending some family or group of children. It seems like every single thing opening up or reopening as an entertainment-type place is family-oriented. I've got no problem with family-oriented businesses, but it seems like it's a little out of hand here.

Example: we were at Coaches, a group of 7 or 8 watching a game, having fun, spending money. We were asked to keep it down or move outside because we were startling and disrupting a couple with an infant clear on the other side of the establishment. I think we left that time, I honestly can't remember because it has happened numerous times around town.

Sometimes it really feels like the way non-smokers will deliberately locate a group of smokers just so they can complain about them. I know that's not what's going on, it just feels that way most of the time. And in this city, the "family" always trumps the group of single people with nothing but disposable income to spend.

What we want isn't just a "dive" to go get drunk, as suggested on this forum numerous times.

I'll get to the whole liquor thing below-

jc4455 - email your friends again and ask how many planning to leave the state because of 3.5 beer.

If getting a higher alcohol content is your beer is your biggest ambition in life then MAPS III might not be for you. I was once a 20-something living in Norman and after graduating from OU I had to leave the state to find a job. I was more concerned about finding a job with an income I could raise a family on than I was with how much beer I had to drink to get drunk – but that’s just me.

First of all, it's not just about 3.5 beer. Sure, that's a major factor and a pita when we have to drive to Texas to buy real domestic beer, but it isn't the only problem in this state.

There's the fact that you can't drink in public. When I say "drink in public" I don't mean staggering up and down the streets pissing ourselves. I'm talking about cookouts at the lake, or a park, or trying to have an amateur brewing competition at a "public" location that isn't a bar.

You will get a ticket for $50, sometimes $150 for having a beer with your friends at a park. I know, because I, and almost everyone I hang out with, has before.

As far as I know, the only place you can legally drink in public is in Norman during OU games.

There's the refrigeration thing, the wine issues, the fact that certain brands won't even sell here because of restrictions, even though they're shipped through Oklahoma to get to a final destination.

You're right though, the 3.5 thing is an issue, but we've really got very little problem spending our money in another state to bypass it.

I'm confident should MAPS 3 pass, it will solve a lot of the "wants" category. The mass transit alone will go a long ways in connectivity and walkability of tieing our hip districts together, and bring together the cohesion we seek. OKC still needs upscale shopping (including a WF type grocer) ANYWHERE, even if it's not downtown. More entertainment options as well that aren't clubs, such as Dave & Busters, more live music venues, etc.

Ok, just curious, but what/where are these "hip districts"?

I know there's a wine/coffee bar or 3 that are called "hip" but whenever we go there it's usually full or 40something divorcees trying to pretend they're 20 and douchey middle-aged men.

Part of the problem, I think, is that a lot of these single guys live in Edmond, in residential developments designed for families. Obviously, they think they can't live in Deep Deuce, but they'd have a lot more fun if they did. I talked to a friend who knows a bunch of them last night, and she said the married ones love it here, and she suspects it's the single guys who might be grumbling. She also said it would be nice if we had a few more jazz clubs that cater to people with higher end incomes. And, I suspect they'd like more hip shopping, and more high end shopping. It's annoying, because we've supported stores like Chanel and Balliet's for years and years, probably because our dsiposable income is about the same as any other place, but retailers can't look past average income data.

You're right, many of the people I work with live in Edmond, as do I. I've looked at places in Deep Deuce, I've looked at all the new/refurbished place in and around the DT area. Frankly, they're waaaaay overpriced. At least with the properties in Edmond, I know that if&when I leave, I'll make a return on my investment. In the DT area, it's too much of a risk, especially when place like Maywood park are barely half full and Regency tower is trying out 2-for-1 deals to try and attract people.

Renting/buying in Edmond, or The Village, where you can get twice(sometimes 3 times) the space for half the price and be able to buy groceries less than a mile or two from your house makes more sense than sinking 2-3 hundred thousand on a loft or condo where you can't even host a party with your friends.

Bottom line is that there's almost nothing in this city to draw 20-30 somethings, specifically single ones.

Organized "youth" events are nice and all, but not everyone in this city wants to got to a "dating" event and have to sit through a sermon first, or listen to how wonderful Lifechurch is from all the potential dates who are only there as a witnessing program.

[mheaton76]

One element that has been missing from this discussion so far is the state of economy, and its influence on an individual's decision to stay in their current locale, or move on to greener pastures.

I saw a recent economic forecast that indicates a third of our metro areas in the US will have jobless rates in double digits in the fourth quarter of 2010, and that 16 metro areas will have jobless rates exceeding 15%. The pain is going to be really bad in California, which will have nine metro areas with jobless rates exceeding 15%. Michigan will have three, and Arizona, Florida, Illinois and Indiana one each. It's a forecast, so ultimately, we'll see.

But, it's highly unlikely we'll have anything remotely as ugly economically here, even if things were to deteriorate further. Thus, when I personally consider my options...I have a good job, and a good group friends, and hey, having family around counts for a lot too. Even though Oklahoma lacks a considerable amount of what would be on my wish list socially, politically, and in terms of overall amenities - it scores REALLY well on being able to pay my bills, live well, and hopefully get ahead in life.

I'm certainly open to moving to Dallas, Denver, Chicago, or Seattle, etc. - but only if I were to find a great professional opportunity that made it worth my while. What I don't want is to leave just for want of more restaurants, or a better view. Poverty with a nice view and better aesthetics will still be ... poverty, at the end of the day.

So I think to myself, can I be happy here in light of all that? Sure. And I don't think I'm the only one. (And...I also keep in mind there's a lot of positive energy here, and things ARE getting better).

[metro]

Ok, just curious, but what/where are these "hip districts"?

I know there's a wine/coffee bar or 3 that are called "hip" but whenever we go there it's usually full or 40something divorcees trying to pretend they're 20 and douchey middle-aged men.

Downtown, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, HSC/State Capitol Area, Arts District, Film Row, Oklahoma River, SoSA, MidTown, Heritage Hills/Mesta Park, NW 23rd (Uptown), Paseo, Plaza District, Asian District, Jefferson Park/Edgemere, Western Ave.

When these area's have some mass transit connecting them to create better connectivity and walkability (not to mention the bike lanes being built and sidewalks being added due to 2007 GO BONDS), these areas are going to explode, and really take off. Most are their own little micro communities and are becoming hipper by the month.

[workman45]

that is an improvement because 5 years ago most nba players were saying, "where is okc?"

exactly!!!

[nik4411]

this guy also said he and his buddies have to go to dallas a lot bc the clubs downtown are boring...man you guys must just not know how to party.

[jc4455]

Downtown, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, HSC/State Capitol Area, Arts District, Film Row, Oklahoma River, SoSA, MidTown, Heritage Hills/Mesta Park, NW 23rd (Uptown), Paseo, Plaza District, Asian District, Jefferson Park/Edgemere, Western Ave.

When these area's have some mass transit connecting them to create better connectivity and walkability (not to mention the bike lanes being built and sidewalks being added due to 2007 GO BONDS), these areas are going to explode, and really take off. Most are their own little micro communities and are becoming hipper by the month.

Ok, this is a major part of the problem.

I know people like to proclaim that every place you listed is "hip", but guess what? They aren't.

Paseo is the only one that comes close, but you've got to deal with the aforementioned middle-aged people trying to recapture their youth. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't expect a huge youth turnout there.

You know what's Hip? Silver Stallion in Mustang, or 66 Bowl(especially when there's live music and visitors from other countries). These forcibly "hip" places, particularily in BT, "SoSa"(it's midtown, stop making up stupid names, this is a perfect example of forcibly hip), and the Arts District are not even remotely "hip".

If the staggering amount of areas you listed as "hip" truly were, then there simply wouldn't be a problem.

And while I'm sure the "Mass Transit" will cause these areas to grow a bit, I doubt it will "explode". Like I said earlier, nobody I work with, live near or hang out with gives a crap about the trolley system. It isn't going to make any of us move downtown, and will more than likely keep us away from downtown since it's going to take up a lane of traffic in an already congested area.

[johnnyincog]

it seems that most of the problems with downtown are secondary to having a lower percentage of downtown housing compared with other cities of similar size. there is no retail, no grocer, it's impossible to eat anywhere after 9 save for hooters and taco bell.

i think that the 250k condo market is not where the growth will come from (plus many of theses serve as pied-a-terre with people not living there full-time). every rental complex recently opened has done well (deep deuce early on, park harvey, and most recently legacy). i live in sycamore square (say what you want i like it) and have noticed an appreciable difference in street activity and just seeing people out and about after 5 or on weekends since legacy has filled.

what do we need to do the get more complexes built in the dowtown area? i cant imagine how much more vibrant our core would be if we could get another 2k or more full-time downtown residents.

[okcpulse]

Ok, this is a major part of the problem.

I know people like to proclaim that every place you listed is "hip", but guess what? They aren't.

Paseo is the only one that comes close, but you've got to deal with the aforementioned middle-aged people trying to recapture their youth. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't expect a huge youth turnout there.

You know what's Hip? Silver Stallion in Mustang, or 66 Bowl(especially when there's live music and visitors from other countries). These forcibly "hip" places, particularily in BT, "SoSa"(it's midtown, stop making up stupid names, this is a perfect example of forcibly hip), and the Arts District are not even remotely "hip".

If the staggering amount of areas you listed as "hip" truly were, then there simply wouldn't be a problem.

And while I'm sure the "Mass Transit" will cause these areas to grow a bit, I doubt it will "explode". Like I said earlier, nobody I work with, live near or hang out with gives a crap about the trolley system. It isn't going to make any of us move downtown, and will more than likely keep us away from downtown since it's going to take up a lane of traffic in an already congested area.

How do you define hip? To me, hip is a bull**** word. If an establishment is enjoyable, the drinks are good, service is good, music is good and the architecture is pleasing to the eye, then that is where I am going to take out-of-town visitors.

[jc4455]

How do you define hip? To me, hip is a bull**** word. If an establishment is enjoyable, the drinks are good, service is good, music is good and the architecture is pleasing to the eye, then that is where I am going to take out-of-town visitors.

Agreed, it is totally a bull**** word. I'm actually kinda pissed at myself for even using the word.

In the case of this thread I'm using it as a place that would attract people in my age group(20-30), on a recurring basis.

[EBAH]

Ok, just curious, but what/where are these "hip districts"?

I know there's a wine/coffee bar or 3 that are called "hip" but whenever we go there it's usually full or 40something divorcees trying to pretend they're 20 and douchey middle-aged men.



You're right, many of the people I work with live in Edmond, as do I. I've looked at places in Deep Deuce, I've looked at all the new/refurbished place in and around the DT area. Frankly, they're waaaaay overpriced. At least with the properties in Edmond, I know that if&when I leave, I'll make a return on my investment. In the DT area, it's too much of a risk, especially when place like Maywood park are barely half full and Regency tower is trying out 2-for-1 deals to try and attract people.

Renting/buying in Edmond, or The Village, where you can get twice(sometimes 3 times) the space for half the price and be able to buy groceries less than a mile or two from your house makes more sense than sinking 2-3 hundred thousand on a loft or condo where you can't even host a party with your friends.

Bottom line is that there's almost nothing in this city to draw 20-30 somethings, specifically single ones.

Village? Edmond? Deep Deuce??!?!?!?! The "hip" sections of town are no where near these places. You couldn't pay me to live in the village. Edmond is DULL for a 20 something. Deep deuce and downtown are WAY over priced. The place to be for young 20 somethings is, as in a lot of big cities, is the "historic" inner city houses. From about N16th to about 36th, from classen all the way to about Portland. There are blocks and blocks of houses, duplexes, quads, etc. All built in the 20's and 30's. They have cool floor plans, many have been renovated very nicely. There are nice rentals and nice homes for purchase. We enjoy a sort of funky inner city environment. Biking downtown or to other inner city bars and ethnic restaurants is very easy. The local population is a very eclectic mix of sort of hip 20-30 somethings, imigrants, and college students. We have nice backyards, neighborhood parks (where it may not be legal to drink but I haven't seen it enforced), and plenty of short distance groceries. The rents are low, and the purchasing price is nice too. There are plenty of hip neighborhoods in this city but literally ALL OF THEM are south of 63rd st.

[mugofbeer]

Now, I've lived in Dallas and you can't drink in the parks there. I've lived in Denver and you can't drink in the parks there - but they don't seem to have a problem with harder drugs being bought and sold in certain parks. I'm not sure where you feel like its OK to go drink in a park but you are giving Dallas way more credit than it deserves on that basis.

Really, it kind of sounds like you have uncovered a business opportunity here. Open a bar for 20-30's and make it clear that children aren't welcome. Actually, anyplace in town that is opened as a tavern fits this description because in OK, you can't have children in a bar area. In TX, you can't have children in a bar after 6PM. In CO they don't seem to have a problem with it at all.

[PennyQuilts]

Who's trashing it? Look, from what I've read here from people who have lived elsewhere is that they like OKC because it is cheap and "quiet." Well, if we are to be a city, there will be some parts of it that are bustling. If you don't like that, move to Deer Creek.

Allowing the city to become a more urban, grown-up version of itself will ensure it's still here and functioning in fifty years, because that is what draws talent employers seek.

I suppose someday we may look back and lament the loss of weedy parking lots, strip malls, neglected streets and sidewalks and endless highways going nowhere, no pedestrian activity, obesity and miles of fast-food restaurants. But I'm willing to take my chances.

I didn't mean this thread on the trashing. It is prevalent is quite a few others.
Those are the ones I was thinking of. But I think this post fairly qualifies as trashing OKC since weedy parking lots, obesity and the like is pretty negative and really not necessary unless you just want to insult the place.

[PennyQuilts]

Well, for one, it would be really nice if there was a place to go, not necessarily a bar or club, where we could hang out, watch a game, have a meal, just be ourselves, without having to worry about offending some family or group of children. It seems like every single thing opening up or reopening as an entertainment-type place is family-oriented. I've got no problem with family-oriented businesses, but it seems like it's a little out of hand here.

Example: we were at Coaches, a group of 7 or 8 watching a game, having fun, spending money. We were asked to keep it down or move outside because we were startling and disrupting a couple with an infant clear on the other side of the establishment. I think we left that time, I honestly can't remember because it has happened numerous times around town.

Sometimes it really feels like the way non-smokers will deliberately locate a group of smokers just so they can complain about them. I know that's not what's going on, it just feels that way most of the time. And in this city, the "family" always trumps the group of single people with nothing but disposable income to spend.

Have you heard the term, "Ugly American?" That behavior sounds exactly lwhat the Europeans complain about when we go over and act like jerks instead of being respectful to the locals and natives.