OKC Police & Fire needs

[Hawk405359]

I don't think fire and police should be a part of MAPS 3, but I think a concurrent sales tax proposal exclusively for public services might help alleviate some of of the issues. Put both on the ballot and let voters pick to fund both or one or the other. There are a lot of public service issues that need money now, and even if the economy is tight they need to be addressed.

[Larry OKC]

Color me confused but in this thread and others we have been repeatedly told it isn’t about raises. Then in Monday’s Oklahoman they said once again that it was about raises.

NewsOK

Oklahoma City fire contract may come to a vote (10/26/09)

After failed contract negotiations this summer, a panel of arbitrators ruled in the firefighters’ favor last month, giving them a 1 percent raise that would cost the city more than $1 million and could cause layoffs of other employees.

The law gives the city only one way to overturn the arbitrators’ decision — a public vote. City council members voted to set a Feb. 9 election and take their case to city voters.

....

Sipe said firefighters offered a similar deal to the city this summer, forgoing raises if the city agreed to a “me too” clause that would kick in if other employees get raises. The city refused to include such a clause and the firefighters asked for the 1 percent raise in their final offer that went to the arbitrator.


I am still unclear how something could be awarded in arbitration that wasn’t asked for (as some posts have indicated)? How can they give it back if settled in arbitration (that both sides agree to in advance they will abide by)? The article says that both sides are still in negotiations and trying to avoid an election on the matter.


Mayor Mick Cornett said the city continues to negotiate with the fire union in the hopes that an agreement can be reached before the February election.


Aren’t arbitrations the last resort, AFTER the negotiations have taken place and an impasse reached? Can an election even be avoided at this point (something both sides say they don’t want). Once the council has set on the election date (and presume a ballot, etc), don’t they have to proceed with that election by law?

[betts]

Again, why will the city not consider increasing the sales tax revenue dedicated to police and fire by a quarter percent if we're going to vote? I don't want to vote for a raise either. I'd rather vote for something that gives the firemen and police the option to hire more personnel. Personally, I find time and half for overtime odious. I'd rather have more personnel, working a regular shift at regular pay. It we can raise $120 million in 18 months with a penny tax, then a quarter of a penny increase would give those departments over $20 million a year, which should solve that problem.

[iron76hd]

betts..AMEN.

It's a tough pill to swallow....we don't have the Money in the budget for any more personell..

well, with this economy. I know everyone understands that, but the problem of staffing that hasn't been addressed in "FAT" budget years either.

What gives? Let's lay something out on the table and get an answer to the problem.

NOPE. Let's talk about MAPS3 instead. WHAT? that's the issues. Then the Mayor crams maps down the city's throat.

That's what no one can understand. I agree 100%. Let's add a permanent tax to address those needs to the same ballot and do it NOW. The Mayor didn't do that. Why? That's all the city employees were asking for.

Then they vote to spend millions to remodel this or that downtown? Only the Mayor and powers that be can explain, but they won't.

[Midtowner]

There's no need to add a permanent sales tax to increase funding for public services because tax revenues are abnormally low. Things will even out, especially if MAPS III passes and keeps OKC residents spending their money (paying taxes) inside OKC, while also drawing people to the city's core from the surrounding MSA.

MAPS III is actually your solution iron. You're being unreasonably short-sighted.

[iron76hd]

The arbitrator agreed with the firefighters, but the city still not satisfied with their decision can take it to a vote of the people. I happen to think that putting the citizens in the middle isn't a good idea. I have no doubt that citizens given all the information will agree with giving the fireman the raise and all the other benefits they've negotiated for. Then where will the city be?

Any fireman will laugh if you ask them to choose between their 1% raise or getting some additional manpower to at least staff each firestation.

That raise was asked for almost two years ago. It's just now coming down to the end. Their is months of negotiation before it even goes to an arbitrator. Then the ruling can take months.

The kicker is. The fireman have offered to forget the money they've spent on negotiating the deal. They've offered to give the raises back or just forget the ruling as long as the city will agree to work on a plan to fund and hire more firefighters.

That is something else I don't understand. No money? Then just talk with them about possibly funding the hiring of more firefighters. It's a need everyone admits, just not one we care about as much as MAPS3 etc...

[flintysooner]

If you think that defeating MAPS 3 at the polls will produce a favorable vote for an additional tax for police and fire needs; then, I suspect you may be disappointed.

It looks to me that the February vote is far less likely to be favorable for fire fighters than even the MAPS vote in December.

[iron76hd]

Midtowner.

Let me ask you again. Where is the money from all of the other MAPS?

Where is it? They didn't use a penny of it to add any Manpower to ANY city service. Where is all the money we've brought in from those projects. Isn't the Ballpark making money? Isn't the Canal making money? Aren't all of the businesses in bricktown making money? Isn't the Ford center making money? Isn't the NBA team making the city money?

That's what you said right? That's the philosophy?

MAPS3 will make tons more money? right? It'll be coming out of the city's ears. right?

That's what they said years ago. Where is it?

There is absolutely a need for a permanent tax. Revenue is down. The city is broke. A permanent tax is the only option. It for sure is before we add a Park? ur killing me here...

[iron76hd]

If you think that defeating MAPS 3 at the polls will produce a favorable vote for an additional tax for police and fire needs; then, I suspect you may be disappointed.

It looks to me that the February vote is far less likely to be favorable for fire fighters than even the MAPS vote in December

Make no mistake. I don't think anyone is holding out that if MAPS3 isn't passed that the city is then going to go right into funding MANPOWER.

We don't think that in the least. Then the Mayor and council will look like they knew there was a problem and just didn't want to address it.

As a group, we don't know if it will pass or not. Knowing the problems with the city services we just can't support it.

I personally hope that it doesn't because, I know that's not as necessary right now as some other things this city needs. That kind of money can be used for other things.

[smooth]

Midtowner.

Let me ask you again. Where is the money from all of the other MAPS?

Where is it? They didn't use a penny of it to add any Manpower to ANY city service. Where is all the money we've brought in from those projects. Isn't the Ballpark making money? Isn't the Canal making money? Aren't all of the businesses in bricktown making money? Isn't the Ford center making money? Isn't the NBA team making the city money?

That's what you said right? That's the philosophy?

MAPS3 will make tons more money? right? It'll be coming out of the city's ears. right?

That's what they said years ago. Where is it?

There is absolutely a need for a permanent tax. Revenue is down. The city is broke. A permanent tax is the only option. It for sure is before we add a Park? ur killing me here...

The MAPS funds were not intended to go toward public safety. That is the public safety tax, which IS permanent. A completely separate referendum.

MAPS I-New stadium, new arena, new main library, downtown canal system, turning the (now named) Oklahoma River into a river instead of a gargantuan empty hole, remodeled Civic Center, expanded convention center, updates to the fairgrounds, Stupid looking busses that look like cable cars (since Earnest Istook ripped off the public by sending the federal funds for the rail to Salt Lake City)

MAPS II- (AKA: MAPS for Kids) Modernized school system.

MAPS IA (we will call it)-Upgrades to the Ford Center mandated by the NBA for the Thunder.

MAPS III-Central Park, new convention center, light rail, improvements to the fairgrounds.

It was a condition of submission, which was honored that ALL MAPS tax collections be used STRICTLY for MAPS projects. This was supervised by the MAPS oversight board.

[betts]

Sorry, iron, but the money is there. I'm not sure how long the fire and police three quarter penny sales tax has been in existence, but extrapolating from the other MAPS taxes, your departments should have been due around $60 to $70 million a year from your dedicated sales tax. A lot of that sales tax would be going to Edmond, had MAPS not been generated, as all retail and restaurant development was heading that direction. So, your complaint that MAPS has generated nothing is ridiculous. And, if people choose to give a penny of their money to the city for MAPS 3, that has nothing to do with what they think about the police and fire department either. It doesn't take money AWAY from your departments because if anything, if the MAPS 3 improvements bring more visitors to Oklahoma City and pulls entertainment money out of the suburbs, that's sales tax money you are not currently getting that will go to you. In other words, if math is difficult, anything that increases people spending money in Oklahoma City actually increases money to your department without even increasing the percentage of tax. MAPS was beneficial to you and MAPS 3 undoubtedly would be as well. As to why that money hasn't been spent on personnel, that is between your department and the city management. We can do things to increase the money to your department, such as spend money locally and vote for bond issues, etc, but how that money is spent is out of our purview.

[BoulderSooner]

Make no mistake. I don't think anyone is holding out that if MAPS3 isn't passed that the city is then going to go right into funding MANPOWER.

We don't think that in the least. Then the Mayor and council will look like they knew there was a problem and just didn't want to address it.

As a group, we don't know if it will pass or not. Knowing the problems with the city services we just can't support it.

I personally hope that it doesn't because, I know that's not as necessary right now as some other things this city needs. That kind of money can be used for other things.

your logic makes no sense??? that money won't be used for anything else .. that money won't exist ...

a couple of ? what is the average pay of okc firemen and okc PD?

[iron76hd]

Midtowner.

So if we build a park. They will come. They entire country and their businesses are in alot worse shape than Oklahoma.

Do you think that businesses are having more conferences now than a year ago? Do you think more families are taking vacations and will flock to our NEW park?

That's all a joke right?

Or do you mean years down the road...when everything is better in the economy...then the money will start to come in? city services needing help today....will just have to wait?

I still don't think people are going to flock to our Park. Maybe I'm crazy. I'll bow down if one person EVER tells me now or ever that they flew or took a family vacation to Oklahoma City to see our park.

or our losing basketball team.... I'm pulling for them though...cause they're ours now...

[SOUTHSIDE GIRL]

Could someone explain , how is a park going to increase revenue to the city.
I don't think we need another one,when the old Wheeler park is never used , even the ball fields are not being used as they once were.

[iron76hd]

Sorry, iron, but the money is there. I'm not sure how long the fire and police three quarter penny sales tax has been in existence, but extrapolating from the other MAPS taxes, your departments should have been due around $60 to $70 million a year from your dedicated sales tax. A lot of that sales tax would be going to Edmond, had MAPS not been generated, as all retail and restaurant development was heading that direction. So, your complaint that MAPS has generated nothing is ridiculous. And, if people choose to give a penny of their money to the city for MAPS 3, that has nothing to do with what they think about the police and fire department either. It doesn't take money AWAY from your departments because if anything, if the MAPS 3 improvements bring more visitors to Oklahoma City and pulls entertainment money out of the suburbs, that's sales tax money you are not currently getting that will go to you. In other words, if math is difficult, anything that increases people spending money in Oklahoma City actually increases money to your department without even increasing the percentage of tax. MAPS was beneficial to you and MAPS 3 undoubtedly would be as well. As to why that money hasn't been spent on personnel, that is between your department and the city management. We can do things to increase the money to your department, such as spend money locally and vote for bond issues, etc, but how that money is spent is out of our purview.

Got it. Where is all of the other money? Where did it go? Not for ANY city services????? What was all of the other revenue generated used for? All of the bull you just stated is what they said years ago and we all bought it. You were probably in Denver and missed it. You were there while I was here paying my taxes for it. We've heard it before. And it didn't happen. Get it?

[betts]

Iron, if we pass an additional quarter cent sales tax for policemen and firemen and DON'T pass MAPS, you may be worse off than if MAPS 3 passes.

Anything that pulls people downtown, increases revenues to you right now. Anything that keeps people away decreases revenues for you, even if the sales tax is due your departments in increased. The economy will improve, but even if it doesn't construction downtown brings construction workers into the city. They eat lunch. Some may eat dinner. Some may decide to move here. Businesses that relocate to downtown because of improvements there buy equipment and paper, and that increases city sales taxes. Their employees eat in downtown restaurants. People will come to a park because it's free, but they may also stop for lunch in a restaurant, or go to a movie. A park and streetcar may even bring retail back downtown, which will increase sales tax revenue. It's very shortsighted to assume that improving the city won't help your department. Your department may have chosen to spend the money on salaries, rather than personnel in the last 15 years, but again, that is out of our hands. We spend money and vote for bond issues which give you revenue. How you spend it is not up to us. Every person here has to work within the constraints of a budget.

[iron76hd]

your logic makes no sense??? that money won't be used for anything else .. that money won't exist ...

a couple of ? what is the average pay of okc firemen and okc PD? [/QUOTE[

What money won't exist? MAPS money? It doesn't exist right now for city services...

Look on the Police website for pay. I don't know what the average pay would be. Why? is it too much?

If so let's cut it in half and then see who shows up to test. Maybe we can bus some of those folks from day staffing over. HA HA.

[betts]

Got it. Where is all of the other money? Where did it go? Not for ANY city services????? What was all of the other revenue generated used for? All of the bull you just stated is what they said years ago and we all bought it. You were probably in Denver and missed it. You were there while I was here paying my taxes for it. We've heard it before. And it didn't happen. Get it?

Where does the 3/4 sales tax revenue designated for police and fire go? Do you get none of it? I would really like to know. But, give us the facts, not vague assumptions and generalizations.

[onthestrip]

In the paper a few weeks ago it said firemen were making over $100k a year. I'll be the first to say I think that is way too much, especially for a job that allows you to have another nearly full time job. Not sure if it's like this in okc, but I know other cities have to pay the firemen as soon as they leave their house to go to the station. So if a fireman lives in, say weatherford, he gets paid as soon as he makes his commute.

Iron, fire and police get a percentage of city revenues. When revenues are up, fire and police get more, and this is what MAPS3 intends to do. It's really that simple.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner.

Let me ask you again. Where is the money from all of the other MAPS?

Where is it? They didn't use a penny of it to add any Manpower to ANY city service. Where is all the money we've brought in from those projects. Isn't the Ballpark making money? Isn't the Canal making money? Aren't all of the businesses in bricktown making money? Isn't the Ford center making money? Isn't the NBA team making the city money?

Your obtusity on this subject is dumfounding. I'm not sure whether you're doing this intentionally or not, but really, the answer is simple, and it's plain as the nose on your face.

Do MAPS projects make more money for the city? Of freaking course they do. Most of the money which makes up your paycheck comes from sales taxes. OKC competes with its suburbs for dollars spent within its city limits just like a business competes for market share. To that end, we have constructed quite a few capital improvements to make shopping in OKC more desirable. To compete, cities like Moore and Midwest City have done what they can do to build "Lifestyle Centers" and other such projects to lure those dollars back to the communities they came from. The game of trying to get sales tax dollars spent in a city is a VERY competitive one.

So does a ballpark help? Does a canal help? Does the Civic Center help? Do these things have any impact? Of course. You'd have to be a damn fool to think otherwise. And I don't think you're a damn fool.

MAPS3 will make tons more money?
snip
That's what they said years ago. Where is it?

Read it and weep.
Greater Oklahoma City Chamber - YES for MAPS - MAPS Study Update Shows Significant Economic Impact

There is absolutely a need for a permanent tax. Revenue is down. The city is broke. A permanent tax is the only option. It for sure is before we add a Park? ur killing me here...

Remember, salary expense and capital expense are two different categories. Capital expenses expended with the goal of increasing the tax base help to generate money for other things. Salary expense? We spend that money to avoid future capital expense. Salaries are a constant drain on the treasury whereas capital improvements are a one time big hit and a continual cost to maintain.

When it comes to raising the money for these things, there's really only one way to do it. Taxes. As citizens we don't want to pay too much tax. We know that the nature of government and government employees is to always think they're too small and underfunded.

Really... in the history of Oklahoma, do you know how many times a government agency at any level ever said to its funding source "Thanks, we have everything and everybody we need, here's some money back." Once. And for the record, that was Attorney General Jan Eric Cartwright (1979-1983).

A permanent tax raised in a downturn is foolish because as you know, what goes down will hopefully go back up... and why should we the taxpayers be saddled with permanent tax increases because of a temporary downturn? Would the fire dept. just give the money back? Absolutely not. They're a government agency, and they'll do what government agencies do -- hire more people or buy better toys.

I would simply ask that the public safety unions do what every single other worker in this economy is having to do. Live with cutbacks. Thinks will get better -- and they'll get better faster if as a city, we compete. That means we pass MAPS III.

[Chance23]

Not a fool, a police officer, so used to being able to bully people into doing whatever he wants, just like those OHP boys on TV yesterday who hit a man who had already surrendered on camera (Guess who will get punished for that?).

[BoulderSooner]

What money won't exist? MAPS money? It doesn't exist right now for city services...

Look on the Police website for pay. I don't know what the average pay would be. Why? is it too much?

If so let's cut it in half and then see who shows up to test. Maybe we can bus some of those folks from day staffing over. HA HA.

a maps vote ie maps money and cities services money have no relation what so ever....


and just a note whether right or wrong the unions must know that campaigning against maps 3 will have repercussions

[flintysooner]

Then the Mayor and council will look like they knew there was a problem and just didn't want to address it.

So your real goal is to replace the Mayor and Council?

[Midtowner]

Not a fool, a police officer, so used to being able to bully people into doing whatever he wants, just like those OHP boys on TV yesterday who hit a man who had already surrendered on camera (Guess who will get punished for that?).

I clearly saw the suspect assaulting the Trooper's fists and resisting arrest.

-- not sure what you're talking about. As a favor though, the D.A. will probably be willing to trade a covenant not to sue for declining to press forward on the several felonies this guy was probably charged with to cover the officer's butt.

[jc4455]

So does a ballpark help? Does a canal help? Does the Civic Center help? Do these things have any impact? Of course. You'd have to be a damn fool to think otherwise. And I don't think you're a damn fool.



Read it and weep.
Greater Oklahoma City Chamber - YES for MAPS - MAPS Study Update Shows Significant Economic Impact

Maybe I'm stupid or something, but if all these things are so great and making so much money and improving our economy, where is this money?

Why isn't this windfall of new cash being used to support public services like Police & Fire?