OKC Police & Fire needs

[andy157]

And, which 10 cities? Again, if you're using cities like Seattle, where housing is 3x as expensive as it is here, then salary comparison is invalid. You have to use a calculated cost of living index for comparison purposes in that situation.

Austin Tx.
Ft. Worth Tx.
El Paso Tx.
K.C. Mo.
St. Louis Mo.
Tucson Ar.
Wichita Ks.
Omaha Ne.
Nashville Tn.
Tulsa Ok.

[Wambo36]

I have said multiple times that what you're speaking about above is not right. Vacations should not be cancelled, except under extraordinary circumstances, and there should be some provision for reimbursing a person for cancelled flights and lost deposits, if that's the case. I am curious, however, as to how often leaves are cancelled. Is there a percentage available? And, who is making that decision? You say "your boss". Did that cancellation come from fire department management, or the city manager?

Most people have 8 to 5 jobs, but not everyone. My husband and I had to split every child's event: one of us went to one, and the other would attend a different child's event. Sometimes neither of us could go, because something came up at work that kept us from being able to leave or one or both of us was on call overnight. It's upsetting when that happens, but yours is not the only profession where something like that happens.

Your right that this should not be occuring, but the fact of the matter is that it is and it's getting worse. I think the correct number is 76 people had their scheduled and approved days off cancelled in the last year. I know it's in the 70's. I personally have left my family on vacation, drove 6 hours back to work one 24 hr. shift, then 6 ours back to join my family on vacation. Effectively I lost most of 3 days of a 6 day trip with my family due to this problem. This is not a new problem but it is getting worse. The city has rebuffed every solution we have put forth and refused to offer a solution of their own.

As for where the problem lies, I think with the city manager. He is the final word on approving any solution. I've read one of your posts where you wonder why the fire or police chief don't do something. These men work at the will of the city manager. I doubt that during their interviews, willingness to stand up to their boss was a plus. We have the sympathy of both of these men but they are at will employees. The police chief has spoken out about this problem. One time. Apparently his boss didn't appreciate it.

Andy thanks for the cities. I knew you'd know.

[betts]

On the other hand, isn't it one's job as chief to take risks for your employees, to go to bat for them? The chiefs' "sympathy" means nothing. If they're not willing to stand up to their boss, then they're no better than him and they're part of the problem too. The buck has to stop somewhere. I'm sure the city manager is sympathetic too, but if no one will speak up for you to him, then he's your "chief" in essence. There's your target, not us.

I'll going to pull a Larry (sorry, Larry, but it's kind of a compliment), and do a little research on those cities. I suspect you'll be surprised how we stack up to them as far as annual income and cost of living are concerned.

And, when you all are getting paid your time and a half for overtime, remember that there are some of us who work overtime for free. My job is to protect people's lives too. So, should we vote against any increases in funding for fire and police departments because we think we should be getting time and a half too, and it's not fair?

[Larry OKC]

...I'll going to pull a Larry (sorry, Larry, but it's kind of a compliment), and do a little research on those cities. I suspect you'll be surprised how we stack up to them as far as annual income and cost of living are concerned.

Not a problem, taken as such. :-)

Am curious though. The way I am understanding the discussion (not taking a side either way on it as I see valid points both ways) The Fire/Police side are saying this isn't about money/raises but about staffing/manpower etc. How does "annual income and cost of living" relate?

Fully agree when you take those things into consideration when it comes to pay, it raises the average Oklahoman's compensation up quite a bit. Know when the teacher's union comes out with the Oklahoma is near the bottom ranking when it comes to pay, they don't mention those things. Not unique to the teachers either. In practically every field, from management all the way down to the lowliest hourly position, Oklahoma ranks near the bottom. The exception to this is our part-time Legislature that reportedly is the highest part-time and until just the past couple of years, was in the top 10 overall (think they are 16th now). There was an effort to tie Legislative pay to teacher pay. My only problem with that was it shouldn't be tied to one special interest group. They need to tie it to the average PART-TIME Oklahoma pay, when that increases, the Leg can get a raise. If it lowers, the Leg takes a pay cut. To borrow one of your quotes, "a rising tide lifts all boats".

Sorry, not trying to take the thread off into yet another topic....

Not surprised to learn that surrounding communities may pay more than OKC, as they are in competition with OKC for those highly skilled individuals. As a career move, it probably carries more weight on a resume with a future employer (at least at 1st glance) that you were on the force of the largest city in the state, rather than a suburb.

[Larry OKC]

CORRECTION, they were the highest paid part-time for several years. Now they are the 3rd highest part time.

[betts]

Not a problem, taken as such. :-)

Am curious though. The way I am understanding the discussion (not taking a side either way on it as I see valid points both ways) The Fire/Police side are saying this isn't about money/raises but about staffing/manpower etc. How does "annual income and cost of living" relate?

Fully agree when you take those things into consideration when it comes to pay, it raises the average Oklahoman's compensation up quite a bit. Know when the teacher's union comes out with the Oklahoma is near the bottom ranking when it comes to pay, they don't mention those things. Not unique to the teachers either. In practically every field, from management all the way down to the lowliest hourly position, Oklahoma ranks near the bottom. The exception to this is our part-time Legislature that reportedly is the highest part-time and until just the past couple of years, was in the top 10 overall (think they are 16th now). There was an effort to tie Legislative pay to teacher pay. My only problem with that was it shouldn't be tied to one special interest group. They need to tie it to the average PART-TIME Oklahoma pay, when that increases, the Leg can get a raise. If it lowers, the Leg takes a pay cut. To borrow one of your quotes, "a rising tide lifts all boats".

Sorry, not trying to take the thread off into yet another topic....

Not surprised to learn that surrounding communities may pay more than OKC, as they are in competition with OKC for those highly skilled individuals. As a career move, it probably carries more weight on a resume with a future employer (at least at 1st glance) that you were on the force of the largest city in the state, rather than a suburb.

Perhaps I misunderstand how these things work, but I would think if one were overpaid in comparison to other comparable cities, in terms of pay versus cost of living index, then one could argue that higher salaries preclude hiring more people. It would also be interesting to see how the budget of these two departments, as a ratio of total city revenue, compares to the other ten cities. I'm actually not at all opposed to more employees or more money for policemen and firemen, if they're understaffed or underpaid. It would just be nice to know. As you and I know, frequently there are two sides to the story, and I'd be interested in hearing both sides. But again, if they are understaffed and underpaid, then I think we should be looking at ways to increase their funding, independent of MAPS. I'd kind of like a raise too, though, if we're handing out raises.....or someone to take my "volunteer" evening call for me .

[iron76hd]

Betts...

Geez...We get it. You're pissed because you have a state job. You don't get overtime. You have to work on Volunteer call.

We have frozen hiring because the City Manager after the VOTE Yes for MAPS3 asked each department to cut 2% from their budget by December.

BUT...we will be hiring again hopefully in the next year or two...or maybe after this Mayor is gone...but guess what......You CAN APPLY....

It's not IF THEY ARE UNDERSTAFFED.....THEY ARE...

Underpaid...doubt that because of the TEN CITY SURVEY...that's done...

I'll let you do the next study...I vote for you..

Fortunately ...the city pays hundreds of thousands of dollars to someone who know how to compare cities...it's their job....to do that because they think the leaders of the Fire Department and Police Department are full of it....so they hire companies to do a study....the tell them what they want..

then when they don't get a favorable study back and it supports the leaders of those departments...they just forget about it...

I don't know what you do...I have nothing to do with the state...If you are getting paid below a living wage in your job...i'd vote for whatever you needed me to ..to make sure you get it...

If you want to get paid to work overtime ...come APPLY...

and the city doesn't "hand out raises".....come on over and give a hand....

YOU'LL EARN IT....every penny....

[Larry OKC]

...then one could argue that higher salaries preclude hiring more people....

From what I have read, that has been one of the trade offs over the years, they increased pay and have included guaranteed overtime (even when on vacation). Seems it is cheaper for the City to pay millions in overtime than to hire more people (pay + benefits etc).

[iron76hd]

It's been on this TEN CITY SURVEY for years...but that may have been their incentive...

Kinda like "hush" money...we'll give you this...if you just shut up about hiring more officers or fireman ...don't tell the citizens how understaffed we're keeping the city...

Well...you can work more and more and more...mmmmmmm

[betts]

Betts...

Geez...We get it. You're pissed because you have a state job. You don't get overtime. You have to work on Volunteer call.

If you want to get paid to work overtime ...come APPLY...

and the city doesn't "hand out raises".....come on over and give a hand....

YOU'LL EARN IT....every penny....

No, you don't get it. I like my job. I am willing to work overtime without being paid for it, and I'm willing to take call without being paid because it's my job. The only reason I even mentioned it was to point out that fact that you're not the only people who work over 40 hours a week. If I didn't like my job, I could quit. That's always an option for people who think they are being treated unfairly.

I just think you all should get over the "poor pitiful me" stuff, because there are other people who work just as hard as you do, and probably get paid less, or went to more years of school to get paid the same, who don't get to retire after 20 years, don't get a great pension, etc. Again, if you don't like what's happening in your department, get a different job, or spend your time and energy campaigning against the people who make the decisions that affect you. Campaign to get them out of office, don't campaign against something completely unrelated.

[iron76hd]

just think you all should get over the "poor pitiful me" stuff, because there are other people who work just as hard as you do, and probably get paid less, or went to more years of school to get paid the same, who don't get to retire after 20 years, don't get a great pension, etc.

Like I said, if you want to retire or have pension etc...APPLY

No, you don't get it. I like my job. I am willing to work overtime without being paid for it, and I'm willing to take call without being paid because it's my job. The only reason I even mentioned it was to point out that fact that you're not the only people who work over 40 hours a week. If I didn't like my job, I could quit. That's always an option for people who think they are being treated unfairly.

Ok let me explain to you something that's obvious to me in your posts..

you don't like not being paid for working overtime...so don't try that one...

you want to get paid for the extra hours...so sell someone else that one...

my guess is you are a Doctor also... I doubt you are as over worked or understaffed as you claim to be. If you were you'd be doing something about it. Asking your superiors, to get you a little help. Which is the same thing we've done.

If you want me to believe that every Doctor is just so happy go lucky that you'd do this stuff for free etc.....and you're just one of those guys who's happy and NEVER asks for anything or complains...

Just stop before you make a fool of yourself..

I'd be careful that you compared your job to a police officers...

I enjoy my Doctors care very much and rely on him. I believe he has a special job and alot of responsibility...

but if you think your job and mine are the same you are very wrong...

That's another discussion..

spend your time and energy campaigning against the people who make the decisions that affect you. Campaign to get them out of office, don't campaign against something completely unrelated.

and don't worry that will surely happen...but it's not election time....it's MAPS 3 time...

you see when the city councilmen or women need support they come and ask for our support..all but one have dismissed hearing any issues brought up...so i doubt the body will support any of them again...but it may not matter because some may not run again....and MAPS is now along with other issues...

[gen70]

Ya'll need some cheese with all that wine?

[Patrick]

my guess is you are a Doctor also... I doubt you are as over worked or understaffed as you claim to be. If you were you'd be doing something about it. Asking your superiors, to get you a little help. Which is the same thing we've done.

Yup, she's a doc, and we have been trying to do something about it. State says no dice.

I'd be careful that you compared your job to a police officers...

I enjoy my Doctors care very much and rely on him. I believe he has a special job and alot of responsibility...

but if you think your job and mine are the same you are very wrong...

That's another discussion..

Surely they're different jobs. Both have responsibility, just different. One literally holds life in his/her hands everyday, the other manages peace!

you see when the city councilmen or women need support they come and ask for our support..all but one have dismissed hearing any issues brought up...so i doubt the body will support any of them again...but it may not matter because some may not run again....and MAPS is now along with other issues...

This is Oklahoma.....many people vote on name alone. How many times did Istook vote for his own agenda, yet still get voted for in the election?

[betts]

Yes, and fireman don't get sued if they don't get someone out of a house. Policemen don't get sued if they fail to stop an altercation, if someone gets killed on their shift and their name is on the paperwork.

Firemen can start their job at 18 instead of 29, don't pay for their training and can retire in 20 years. That means technically they can retire at 38, which is just 8 years after most doctors start making enough money to pay back their student loans.

Again, I am NOT complaining. I love my job and consider it a public service. Just giving a few comparisons. In addition, I think there are a lot of jobless people out there who would like ANY job, no matter the hours.

[iron76hd]

Yes, and fireman don't get sued if they don't get someone out of a house. Policemen don't get sued if they fail to stop an altercation, if someone gets killed on their shift and their name is on the paperwork.

Boy are you misinformed AGAIN. I can't speak for the Fireman, but Officers are sued for some of the very reasons you named. I don't know what the numbers are.. but I bet they might be comparable.

Wow...step in it again

Surely they're different jobs. Both have responsibility, just different. One literally holds life in his/her hands everyday, the other manages peace!

Please tell me that's a joke. We could announce that every officer, deputy, and trooper will be off and not working for 12 hours. Free for all and see what's left after that 12 hours in this city. Give me a break...let's move on...
I can only bite my typing for so long on that subject.

[iron76hd]

Firemen can start their job at 18 instead of 29, don't pay for their training and can retire in 20 years. That means technically they can retire at 38, which is just 8 years after most doctors start making enough money to pay back their student loans.

Can you remind me of how many Doctors were killed in the line of duty last year? I'm falling out of my chair. Please keep in mind, DOC, many fireman can hope to enjoy a retirement visiting Doctors after the years of abuse a body might suffer during a Fireman's career...can I help you with that Doc? clipboard heavy?

Let's talk about something else. This will go south fast. I'll laugh myself into a heart attack at you doc's and I don't want that to happen.

Does the vague language not bother you in MAPS3?

[Chance23]

I've always doubted that police were as overworked as they claimed too. They can yell at people who they think get too close to whatever it is they're doing, they have the vague cause of "obstruction" that allows them to arrest anyone for anything, and they have somehow gotten the right to profile and be stricter to people of different skin colors. I mean, yeah, officers might have to run a mile or so to chase someone, but I can do that and I don't work for the city.

Or is this about support? If so, I don't understand why, I've never seen an officer work a scene without a team of people. Beat officers sit in their car at the crime scene tape and yell at people to get back if they come within 20 feet of it. Investigators come in to examine the crime scene. The FD gets called in to help control traffic, the crowd, or pretty much whatever the officers on scene command them to do. EMS comes in case someone is injured. The Medical Examiner comes in if there's a corpse. The Sheriff's department, Highway Patrol, OSBI, and/or FBI come in to help investigate if the situation warrants it.... and the officer still takes credit if they solve the crime.

And if an officer must be investigated for an ethics violation, like Trooper Martin who seems to think it's reasonable to assault people who don't bow down to lick his boot, they get a few weeks paid vacation, I mean "administrative leave," until it blows over. I mean, yeah, it's a high stress job, but so are many jobs. Cops just get a gun strapped to their waist while they do theirs.

I think fire and EMS deserve any help we can give them. I've enjoyed talking to every single one of them I've met and have honestly felt they were all strictly in it because they wanted to help people. Other law enforcement? Several of them that I met were in it because they wanted power and authority and that was the easiest way. For every good officer I've met, I've met two egomaniacs. Yeah, we have to have them in the city, but I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for them.

[Chance23]

Can you remind me of how many Doctors were killed in the line of duty last year?

Probably not as many as the number of law enforcement officials who have wrongly assaulted or killed someone on their shift and were given a slap on their wrist for it.

[betts]

Yeah, the vague language bothers me. But not enough to vote against it. I think this is a city on the brink...it can blossom and turn into a place we all can be very proud to live in, or it can stop changing and improving, and stagnate. When most of the country thinks you're a backwater dustbowl (recognize that water and dust seem to be contradictory, but that's what most of the country thinks of us), you've got some work to do.

This is a far from perfect place, but it gets better everytime we make changes. MAPS made massive improvements in the city, and really, was our city's only hope for positive change at that point in time. As I've said, I would have been out of here and happy for it years ago without MAPS, and I doubt I'm alone. Getting an NBA team was a very positive change. Devon building a new tower and making as many improvements as they're going to with streetscaping and the Myriad Gardens is a very positive change. But, we've got so very far to go, if we want to aim towards becoming a Portland, a Minneapolis. For one thing, we need to improve transit. A streetcar system is VERY important to me, and we're not going to get it without passing this MAPS. A central park is VERY important to me, and we're not going to get it without passing MAPS. I want downtown to be a place people want to live, to be a vibrant and important part of our community for everyone. I want people to be able to take visitors downtown and show it off.....for it to impress visitors. We're getting there, but there's so much more to do. I'm not willing to stop progress because of fuzzy language. I'm going to trust that improving our city is as important to our city council and mayor as it is to me. If they prove me wrong, then I campaign against them when they run for office. I think it's dangerous not to take a risk here, personally, and I would never vote against something I think is good for Oklahoma City. The "we" is more important than the "me" to my way of thinking.

[betts]

Can you remind me of how many Doctors were killed in the line of duty last year? I'm falling out of my chair.

I don't know. We don't keep statistics. However, some do die in the line of duty. In the past, doctors died of leukemia because of radiation exposure. Doctors have operated on battle lines in all wars. We've been living in lala land the last generation, thinking that infectious diseases have somehow been put behind us. However, now we have a new flu, at the wrong time of year and we'll have regular flu this winter, no doubt. We have MRSA. We have necrotizing fascitis. We have had anthrax used as a biological weapon and the potential for weaponized smallpox. We have doctors examining, drawing blood on, operating on and doing procedures on patients who are Hepatitis B or C positive or HIV positive. TB is back. Do you think those patients who had anthrax were stuck in a room by themselves to die? Many times when a patient is first seen, the physician has no idea what is wrong with them. They could potentially have a contagious disease that will prove deadly to the physician, and yet there are very few physicians who would refuse to treat that patient because they fear for their life. Should we have a new plague, doctors and nurses will risk their lives caring for the sick. So, while perhaps 118 doctors did not die in 2008 from diseases inflicted by their patients, I can honestly say I am sure some did, and I don't really see that as funny.

[Patrick]

Please tell me that's a joke. We could announce that every officer, deputy, and trooper will be off and not working for 12 hours. Free for all and see what's left after that 12 hours in this city. Give me a break...let's move on...I can only bite my typing for so long on that subject.

Like I said, police officers manage peace. If they weren't working for 12 hours, there wouldn't be a lot of peace would there?

Most police officers shoot their victims, then bring them to our Trauma Center and expect us to put them back together, all while they're calling their buddies bragging about how they just almost killed someone.

[Patrick]

Can you remind me of how many Doctors were killed in the line of duty last year?

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

I'm falling out of my chair.

Please don't, you might need a doc for that if you break something.

Please keep in mind, DOC, many fireman can hope to enjoy a retirement visiting Doctors after the years of abuse a body might suffer during a Fireman's career...can I help you with that Doc? clipboard heavy?

So can anyone doing a job of manual labor. Again, I don't see the point.

Does the vague language not bother you in MAPS3?

Not really. Because the city already has detailed out a clear plan on what they plan to do with MAPS 3.

[Patrick]

Probably not as many as the number of law enforcement officials who have wrongly assaulted or killed someone on their shift and were given a slap on their wrist for it.

Ummm...does the name Donald Pete ring a bell?

[iron76hd]

Ummm...does the name Donald Pete ring a bell?

Most police officers shoot their victims, then bring them to our Trauma Center and expect us to put them back together, all while they're calling their buddies bragging about how they just almost killed someone.

Patrick....we're sinking fast here. Donald Pete?.. I'd be interested in what you know about the whole situation. This isn't gonna get any better. I could throw a dig...let's see...

I wish we were like Doctors...just come to work drunk..sew a sponge up into a patient only to have them almost die two months later...(true story)

easy..lose pathetic doctors lose their license in one state and just hop to another one to continue your incompetence there. Then in a few years come back to the board and get your license in the original state.

I mean there are plenty of states. They just jump from one to another...meanwhile continuing to make hundreds of thousand of dollars from insurance companies..while messing unsuspecting people up...

clean up your profession Doctor...quit letting your fellow doctors do this...it's wrong...ban them from one state...good...but what kind of person allows them to go to another????? and you care about your patients??? Do something worthy of losing your job in Law Enforcement and your done...Any state, city, county...DONE...just a Lil better that you doctors standards...

come on Patrick. we don't have to go down that road. Don't play this tit for tat and let's not become petty. I confess......I laugh at it. I have thick skin. I'm actually good at it too. to a fault.. You won't win...you'll lose this petty comparison and argument....

you will likely get mad. I've had other people tell me they can take it too, but NEVER had one not want to fight over a few words i've spoken or typed...I don't hold much back when I do it..

Let's get back MAPS....I think we've agreed to disagree.

or Police and Fire Needs...if you don't have any questions about our needs then I guess we're done..your dismissed.

if you want to continue this petty Police vs Doctor stuff...then email me directly iron76hd@yahoo.com...sounds like you have some stuff you want to get off your chest...so i'll listen to you...LOL

you'll have to do better than Donald Pete...i know that's not your best material...come on...

i'll do it for fun, but you won't like it and it won't be productive...or solve anything. you have the same old ammunition...that everyone's heard before...i have plenty for Doctors...

come on patrick...lets move on

[Chance23]

Do something worthy of losing your job in Law Enforcement and your done...Any state, city, county...DONE...

Makes sense, since the things cops get away with unscathed would send most people to jail. Look at Trooper Martin, he egregiously abused his power, got kicked out of his position, and slid right into another where he could assault people on camera and keep his job. Nothing sort of negligent homicide would cause law enforcement to lose their job long term, and even then they can count on the courts to bail them out (true story).

But hey, they gotsa badge and an ego, we all must respect their authoritah! Less they fabricate something to arrest you for. I wish you guys were like doctors too, then maybe you might be good at something other than writing tickets and covering your own when they break the law. Then again, the boys in Texas can't even do that ticket part right, so I have no reason to believe you guys would get it right.