Cops Union or Someone Doing anti-MAPS Push Poll

[OKCRT]

Well I am sure that everyone needs and would like a raise. The fact is while firefighters have a tough job they also have a lot of free time. I see the local boys hanging out goofing off all the time,and I mean ALL the time. They also have plenty of time to have 2nd jobs and many of them do. Maps is not about fire & police this time around. This push polling might just backfire in their faces.

[Midtowner]

Well I am sure that everyone needs and would like a raise. The fact is while firefighters have a tough job they also have a lot of free time. I see the local boys hanging out goofing off all the time,and I mean ALL the time. They also have plenty of time to have 2nd jobs and many of them do. Maps is not about fire & police this time around. This push polling might just backfire in their faces.

To be fair, the firefighters here, God bless 'em, have said over and over that this is about staffing, i.e., hiring more firefighters so that they can have complete crews -- not salaries. They even allegedly offered to give back their raises to get more men on the job.

I'll even go so far as to agree with them that they are being done wrong. That said, their issues have nada to do with MAPS III, at least to the extent that MAPS could fix anything. Their whole goal is to send a message to the city that they'll hold progress hostage until they get what they want. The city has apparently called their bluff and here we are.

[Slivermoon]

I guess we'll see what happens when we get the chance to vote on their contract next February.

[Wambo36]

To be fair, the firefighters here, God bless 'em, have said over and over that this is about staffing, i.e., hiring more firefighters so that they can have complete crews -- not salaries. They even allegedly offered to give back their raises to get more men on the job.

I'll even go so far as to agree with them that they are being done wrong. That said, their issues have nada to do with MAPS III, at least to the extent that MAPS could fix anything. Their whole goal is to send a message to the city that they'll hold progress hostage until they get what they want. The city has apparently called their bluff and here we are.

"Allegedly offered to give back their raises to get more men on the job."? Firefighters union President Phil Sipes stood in front of the council and made the offer. I don't know why it's "allegedly". Watch the replays of the council meetings. See, this is what the mayor counts on every time he spouts his lie about this being about raises. Someone might just buy it.

[Larry OKC]

... But then again, these things generally aren't overly concerned with accuracy or truth or any of those silly antiquated concepts.

Like the Mayor and the Chamber are??? ROFLMAO

[andy157]

Like the Mayor and the Chamber are??? ROFLMAO

When you get right down to it. The C of C is really the same as a Union. Should be named the Union of Commerce. It supports its members, and lobbies for their issues, and, you can't be a member unless you join and pay dues. Here is what you will find if you do a side by side comparison between the Union of Commerce and the Police and Firefighters Unions.

Union of Commerce- No join, no become a member, no pay dues, no support, no benefits.

P & F Unions- No join, no become a member, no pay dues, Union forced to support you nevertheless, you have and receive the same benefits as do the dues paying members.

[Midtowner]

I guess it's a decent comparison. The only difference is that the Chamber is lobbying for MAPS because they want MAPS. You're lobbying against it for reasons completely unrelated to MAPS. You're rightfully pissed about irrelevant stuff, at least insofar as the MAPS vote is concerned and THAT is not constructive. In fact, if MAPS does not pass, you'll almost definitely end up with a smaller budget 10 years from now compared with if MAPS did pass.

Your position makes no sense Andy. It's not logical.... and now this? Hiring telemarketers to lie to citizens? Classy.

[betts]

I would have to argue that the Chamber promotes the city as well as their members, and that sometimes benefits the city as a whole. Unions are designed for their members, and while it is true that nonmembers (if you've got an open shop only) also receive the benefits of their labors, it is a far less inclusive benefit than the city-wide benefit of having a Chamber. It really doesn't help me if the union gets time and a half for overtime for their members, and I'm paying for that as surely as I'm paying for MAPS.

[jbrown84]

Hiring telemarketers to lie to citizens? Classy.

Well said. This is shady, shady, shady. Maybe it's time for some grassroots pro-MAPS promotion, since the city seems to be assuming they don't need to worry about this. Foolish.

[kevinpate]

There is a part of me that wonders if the city isn't actually counting on pro-MAPs grassroots kicking in. Better to have neighbor to neighbor saying it'll be ok, than to only have politicos saying 'oh, c'mon, give us your ok to collect 3/4 of a billion, yeah, with a b, with only your faith in a non binding pledge that we'll do later what we're saying we'll do.'

If it works for the voters, it does, but I'm a tad surprised that absence of assurance isn't already the central theme of every last opposition person out there.

Shoot, I can't even vote and it concerns me a tad.

[iron76hd]

Your position makes no sense Andy. It's not logical....

and now this? Hiring telemarketers to lie to citizens? Classy.

Who lied to the citizens? Let me know how that has happened?

It's makes sense to me Andy. I don't know how to explain the position of "not supporting MAPS3" any better. Midtowner just doesn't agree with standing up as a group for what you believe in. We believe in good conscience we can't support maps knowing that citizens are getting short changed when it comes to city services. ...These services will be even more stretched if we build the MAPS3 stuff.

Citizens will not benefit from MAPS3 as far as city services are concerned...they will suffer even more...

AGREE OR NOT...that's why...there will be no MAPS3...

Citizens won't vote for it for several reasons...

the vague language..(they did that on purpose)
City Services issues (that will be raised)
Some just don't like taxes....
Some know that it won't benefit their particular side of town....

....I don't believe in flat out lying.....even though the MAYOR has already....he's been vague and will continue to do so....because he know's what he's doing is dishonest ....not giving the citizens the entire picture is the ONLY way he'll win....

Now he's made it the duty of City Workers to get the truths out there and they won't favor him....and his management of the city...

SOO..lets see what happens... I have faith in the CITIZENS....

[iron76hd]

just like this thread...

"Cops Union" Who is doing the Poll?

You don't know but you start a thread throwing up that it's more likely than not ...it's the "COPS UNION"

Could it be fire? could it be city services? could it be a mad citizen with a little money?

Could it be one several local politician's that's coming out publicly against MAPS3 in a few short weeks???

No one knows..but "cops union" is at the top...LOL

[Patrick]

I guess we'll see what happens when we get the chance to vote on their contract next February.

Vote NO! I couldn't possibly vote for a new contract to fund their presence, knowing we have huge needs funding improvements in our roads and bridges. lol!

[Patrick]

...These services will be even more stretched if we build the MAPS3 stuff.

Citizens will not benefit from MAPS3 as far as city services are concerned...they will suffer even more...

AGREE OR NOT...that's why...there will be no MAPS3...

As Midtowner said, the services will shrink if we don't build MAPS 3 stuff because sale tax revenue will surely decrease with fewer tourists coming to events at the convention center and fairgrounds.

Citizens won't vote for it for several reasons...

the vague language..(they did that on purpose)

That wasn't their intent. Only because of the way state law is worded on how projects can be put on the ballot.

City Services issues (that will be raised)

Raised by you to further your agenda.

Some just don't like taxes....

That will always be the case. Shannon is in this camp. He's not for MAPS 3, and he surely won't be for tax increases to fund your cause.

Some know that it won't benefit their particular side of town...

MAPS 3 benefits all of OKC.

....I don't believe in flat out lying.....even though the MAYOR has already....he's been vague and will continue to do so....because he know's what he's doing is dishonest ....not giving the citizens the entire picture is the ONLY way he'll win....

To say that somehow voting for MAPS 3 will lead to further problems in city services is flat out lying. The two aren't even related.

Now he's made it the duty of City Workers to get the truths out there and they won't favor him....and his management of the city...

City workers appear to be doing whatever it takes to further their own agenda.

SOO..lets see what happens... I have faith in the CITIZENS....

I have faith that the citizens won't buy into the scare tactics and lies of the unions.

[Patrick]

Could it be fire? could it be city services? could it be a mad citizen with a little money?

Could it be one several local politician's that's coming out publicly against MAPS3 in a few short weeks???

No one knows..but "cops union" is at the top...LOL

That's only because cops and fire unions have been the most vocal opposition to MAPS 3 and have the most money to oppose it, so it's easy to put the blame on them.

[iron76hd]

yes.."further our agenda"...

It's not going to pass Patrick...but i'm sure you'll live..

[jbrown84]

It's not going to pass Patrick...but i'm sure you'll live..

A crystal ball??? WHERE'D YOU GET THAT????

[Hawk405359]

That's only because cops and fire unions have been the most vocal opposition to MAPS 3 and have the most money to oppose it, so it's easy to put the blame on them.

Everyone furthers their own agendas. I don't blame police if they're doing such. I simply think whoever is doing it that the methods should be out in the open and not an attempt to deceive. If you want to call out city hall for lying, it's easy enough to do it in the open, you don't need push polls to do it.

If it were the other way, with the polls telling people to vote for Maps, I'm betting jc and Wambo would be quick to call foul on it.

[Wambo36]

Everyone furthers their own agendas. I don't blame police if they're doing such. I simply think whoever is doing it that the methods should be out in the open and not an attempt to deceive. If you want to call out city hall for lying, it's easy enough to do it in the open, you don't need push polls to do it.

If it were the other way, with the polls telling people to vote for Maps, I'm betting jc and Wambo would be quick to call foul on it.

I hate to tell you this Hawk but I learned a long time ago that crying foul on these type of things usually falls on deaf ears. I still don't know if the FOP is behind the poll but find it humorous that, with all the possibilities, they are taking the blame. With absolutely no proof they are taking the blame. I say this knowing full well that it might be them, but noboby has shown any proof.

Does the poll bother me? No more than the fact that the president of the CC and the man leading the charge for MAPS 3 has the largest bully pulpit in the state. Still haven't seen any objective or critical reporting on the subject in his newspaper. Even the proponents of MAPS 3 on this board have found things to be critical of, but not the paper. I find that type of control to be just as alarming as a poll.

As for Patricks assumption that police and fire have the most money to spend in opposition to this, I hope he's wrong. The massive amount they have to spend will probably be a single digit percentage of what the city and CC are spending to get it passed.

[Chance23]

People blame the police because this is par the course for police action. Police are used to being the bully's and don't like when others call them out on it, they're the most likely ones to try to trick people into following them.

[jbrown84]

the president of the CC and the man leading the charge for MAPS 3 has the largest bully pulpit in the state.

Bully pulpit?? They've had like 3 articles on MAPS in the last 3 months--all pretty straight forward. Indeed they have ignored the issues involving the opponents, but they also haven't been trumpeting it nearly as much as they could. Perhaps Thompson has told his editors to report nothing but the basic facts, i.e. the city council voting to approve, a list of the projects, etc.

Also, I'm pretty sure they were the first to report the way the ballot was set up and in no way glossed over the fact that it was "vaguely worded".

[proud2Bsooner]

The cops and firemen unions, and people like iron, are doing themselves more harm than good by opening their big mouths.

[Midtowner]

Bully pulpit?? They've had like 3 articles on MAPS in the last 3 months--all pretty straight forward. Indeed they have ignored the issues involving the opponents, but they also haven't been trumpeting it nearly as much as they could. Perhaps Thompson has told his editors to report nothing but the basic facts, i.e. the city council voting to approve, a list of the projects, etc.

Also, I'm pretty sure they were the first to report the way the ballot was set up and in no way glossed over the fact that it was "vaguely worded".

Or maybe since the Police and Fire Unions' issues really have nothing to do with MAPS and are more related to manpower disputes, the two separate issues don't merit mentioning simultaneously? And since these unrelated issues are the root cause of the Unions' misgivings, there's really no cogent story to be told?

[andy157]

I guess we'll see what happens when we get the chance to vote on their contract next February.

You probably won't be voting on the contract in February, unless of course the Courts put a rush on the ballot dispute that will have to be settled prior to a vote.

[flintysooner]

When I read the article I wondered what would happen if the vote was against the union contract.

Even worse is the scenario of firefighters simply refusing to work without a contract and someone suffering loss of property or injury.