Cops Union or Someone Doing anti-MAPS Push Poll

[soonerguru]

I just got push-polled by an outfit called Opinion Research.

They asked multiple leading, extremely biased anti-MAPS questions that sound like they were written by our buddy Iron.

Are push polls legal in Oklahoma?

I am absolutely furious.

An example of a "question": Would you support this tax extension knowing that police and fire have to take a two percent budget cut?

Would you continue to support it knowing the council approved the ballot without any citizen input? etc. etc.

It's the first time I've ever been push polled.

Steve, you know what to do.

[betts]

They've got money for that, it appears.

[LakeEffect]

Every City dept. is taking the 2% cut... and Fire & Police, from what I've heard (haven't seen the memo myself), Fire & Police skipped out on the first budget cut earlier this Fiscal Year when every other Dept. had to comply. Push polls are very annoying.

[kevinpate]

I don't agree with their tactics, but the 'vote no' folks do have every bit as much right to advance their agenda as the 'vote yes' folks do. Whether the nays can out advance the yeas, or even advance their position moderately well, is a separate question.

[soonerguru]

Please be aware there's a phony poll that's really just smearing MAPS with citizens. I hope the MAPS 3 Yes crowd gets in gear soon. I'm not seeing much.

[Midtowner]

That they're moving this early in the game just smacks of union tactics -- they want progress on a completely separate issue and this is how they're trying to do it. They're not serious about defeating MAPS, they just want to make their presence felt.

Of course hiring more union members is in the union's best interest. Now Couch is put into a fairly precarious position -- either give in (and no one will notice) or fight these guys.

If I was advising Couch, I'd tell him to go ahead and give in for now, and just as soon as the vote passed, pull the rug out from under the unions. Dirty tactics invite dirty responses.

[andy157]

Please be aware there's a phony poll that's really just smearing MAPS with citizens. I hope the MAPS 3 Yes crowd gets in gear soon. I'm not seeing much.

To see and learn more about MAPS is simple. All it takes is for you to make your reservation. Show up, pay your $39.00 to hear what the Mayor has to say. But you had better hurry. Reservations are limited.

[andy157]

That they're moving this early in the game just smacks of union tactics -- they want progress on a completely separate issue and this is how they're trying to do it. They're not serious about defeating MAPS, they just want to make their presence felt.

Of course hiring more union members is in the union's best interest. Now Couch is put into a fairly precarious position -- either give in (and no one will notice) or fight these guys.

If I was advising Couch, I'd tell him to go ahead and give in for now, and just as soon as the vote passed, pull the rug out from under the unions. Dirty tactics invite dirty responses.

Midtowner, if thats how you would handle things, well, do I have some good news for you. That very plan is already in place, with one exception. Giving in. Thats not part of the plan. Cutting positions and layoffs, not furloughs, thats the plan. If I were guessing I would look for 35 to 40 cuts. I wonder which Fire Stations will be closed down. Guess we'll see which Councilperson has got the biggest.

[betts]

No denials that the unions are involved in this "poll"? Again, spend money to defeat the councilpeople who oppose what you want, don't spend money to oppose something completely unrelated. You hurt 1.3 million people, not just the 9 in your sights with those "tactics".

[metro]

Please be aware there's a phony poll that's really just smearing MAPS with citizens. I hope the MAPS 3 Yes crowd gets in gear soon. I'm not seeing much.

As with most elections, it's too far out to waste money advertising, etc. Although I do agree there are more cheap things they could be doing. You should read the article in today's JR about this very thing. They are out there in full force, working overtime talking to neighborhood associations, rotary clubs, churches, all kinds of groups. I imagine about the middle of October we'll see the heavy promoting begin, it doesn't make political sense to waste so much money this early, it's not a presidential election. Historically votes like this have a low turnout, and most of the people who show are hardcore supporters, union activisits in retailiation, or anti-tax people. For the most part, these people would show up no matter what. The last minute voter is just that, decides on if and how they will vote at the last minute, and are usually persuaded one way or another by tv commercials. It's been proven many a time.

[Wambo36]

That they're moving this early in the game just smacks of union tactics -- they want progress on a completely separate issue and this is how they're trying to do it. They're not serious about defeating MAPS, they just want to make their presence felt.

Of course hiring more union members is in the union's best interest. Now Couch is put into a fairly precarious position -- either give in (and no one will notice) or fight these guys.

If I was advising Couch, I'd tell him to go ahead and give in for now, and just as soon as the vote passed, pull the rug out from under the unions. Dirty tactics invite dirty responses.

Midtowner it sounds like you would fit into our city management very well. Employees of this city have been dealing with "dirty" tactics for years. Ask yourself, why the city is consistently losing arbitration cases against its employees? Could it be that when examined by an impartial 3rd party, the city has usually been found to be wrong on almost every occasion. I hate to break it to you but these cases cost money that the city could put to better use.
Andy is right that you are well behind Jim Couch on pulling dirty tricks. He's the master.

[Doug Loudenback]

Hey, wait a minute ... what does "push-polled" mean ... new term to me. And what's a link? I'd like to look into it.

[Hawk405359]

Hey, wait a minute ... what does "push-polled" mean ... new term to me. And what's a link? I'd like to look into it.

It'd be like asking "Do you still support your senator even knowing he wants to destroy business in the city?"

A push poll is a poll designed not to gather information, but to spread a particular ideology. They tend to use language that pushes their agenda, but masquerade as a poll. So, in short, it's a political ad disguised as a legitimate poll. It's illegal in one state, but not Oklahoma.

[Doug Loudenback]

Thanks, Hawk. OK, I get it.

Now, does anyone have a link to this poll? I'd like a copy and to expose it in its entirety just for historical purposes.

[jc4455]

So let me see if I've got this straight.

"Would you continue to support it knowing the council approved the ballot without any citizen input?" = evil, bad thing to say.

"Voting No hurts 1.3 million people." = good, righteous thing to say.

does that sum it up?

[Midtowner]

So let me see if I've got this straight.

"Would you continue to support it knowing the council approved the ballot without any citizen input?" = evil, bad thing to say.

Also a false thing to say.

I guarantee you that at least one citizen had input on this thing. Not trying to be difficult or hyper-technical, but I'd wager that just about all the folks who worked on this proposal (excluding consultants from outside) were OKC citizens.

You might reword the poll to say "public input." But then again, these things generally aren't overly concerned with accuracy or truth or any of those silly antiquated concepts.

[Wambo36]

Also a false thing to say.

I guarantee you that at least one citizen had input on this thing. Not trying to be difficult or hyper-technical, but I'd wager that just about all the folks who worked on this proposal (excluding consultants from outside) were OKC citizens.

You might reword the poll to say "public input." But then again, these things generally aren't overly concerned with accuracy or truth or any of those silly antiquated concepts.

Interesting that this statement rates being declared false and worthy of addressing, but the mayor going on TV to lie about the firefighters and why they aren't supporting MAPS hasn't aroused your hyper-technical or difficult side. hmmm

[Midtowner]

Interesting that this statement rates being declared false and worthy of addressing, but the mayor going on TV to lie about the firefighters and why they aren't supporting MAPS hasn't aroused your hyper-technical or difficult side. hmmm

Ah, then, so for you and yours, if one side is being unethical, then you should be as well, hm? I expect better.

I expect better from the mayor as well.

What the hell happened to honor?

[Doug Loudenback]

And what the hell happened to a link? I want to see this poll!

[Midtowner]

Doug, push polls are conducted via telephone. They persuade by misdirecting their audiences.

[Wambo36]

Ah, then, so for you and yours, if one side is being unethical, then you should be as well, hm? I expect better.

I expect better from the mayor as well.

What the hell happened to honor?

I just found it interesting that this is what bothered you when the mayor has pulled his act repeatedly without raising your ire. As far as your honor question, since I have no idea who is conducting the poll in question, I'll assume your not speaking to me or mine.

[betts]

The mayor has been on television talking about the firefighters and why they aren't supporting MAPS? Link?

[Wambo36]

The mayor has been on television talking about the firefighters and why they aren't supporting MAPS? Link?

Evening news, several times in the last 2 weeks. Sorry I don't have links. His standard line goes something like "The fire union is upset because they didn't get a raise this year so they are coming out against MAPS."

He knows the firefighters have tried to give back the raise that was awarded to them by an arbitrator. He knows they have offered it back in exchange for help with staffing and yet he goes on TV and chooses to lie. I wish I was suprised.

[Hawk405359]

So let me see if I've got this straight.

"Would you continue to support it knowing the council approved the ballot without any citizen input?" = evil, bad thing to say.

"Voting No hurts 1.3 million people." = good, righteous thing to say.

does that sum it up?

Masquerading a political ad as a public opinion poll = bad thing, no matter the side.

Each side openly stating their opinions on the matter = good thing, no matter the side.

No more complicated than that.

[soonerguru]

Thanks, Hawk. OK, I get it.

Now, does anyone have a link to this poll? I'd like a copy and to expose it in its entirety just for historical purposes.

Doug,

It's done by telephone. Have you ever been polled before? They call you on the phone. They don't leave lots of tracks.

It's about the moral equivalent of robocalling, except there's a human on the other end pretending to be a legit pollster.

"Doug, would you be inclined to vote for Candidate X if you knew that he beats his wife?"

That's essentially the way push polls are done. They're not as common in this market but have been happening for years elsewhere and do work. They're designed to operate like negative advertising, but in a disguised manner.