OKC Police & Fire needs

[Patrick]

What actually subtracts, for me, from any interest in the police and fire issue discussed in this thread is the fact that most of you posting here against MAPS have never belonged to this forum before, have since joining not participated in other threads that show you care about more in Oklahoma City than this issue.

[Patrick]

That is his salary from Ackerman McQueen. He was appointed to a Vice President over a division for Ackerman McQueen. Which they are members of the Chamber of Commerce.
He doesn't make much as the Mayor. He was Channel 9 news discussing his salary as a mayor and Ackerman McQueen. He said that the Mayor is a part time job, so he had to find more work. So where does his loyalty lay with now. The City or Ackerman McQueen?

Ummm....most mayors have had other full time jobs. The mayor position is not full time.

[Patrick]

According to Oklahoma City Personnel Policies, this is a conflict of interest. An employee can be terminated for doing this. You cannot work for the city, and work for anyone/company that does business with the city. Which he is doing. He was even asked during an interview (News 9) about this conflict, and he was real quick to shut it down.
I am for growth, I am for OKC being a great place to live, it brings more jobs, money, all the things we all want. But I want to know the details..all I keep hearing is that it will be good for the city. It will bring in high tax revenue. Well, we have had 2 MAPS..and all I keep hearing from the City, is that we don't have the money so cut, cut cut!
The City is asking for all City Departments for a 2% cut. That means job cuts for a lot of those departments. These are the same people who will not be spending money due to losing their job. How can that be justified by the city to cut jobs, but support tax revenue driven projects at this time. The City has already had 4 months in a row of lower than expected revenue.
I know I wont change your mind. You support it, but I oppose it. And by reading a lot of the posts, I am in the minority. Some posts have a few choose words for people who oppose the MAPS project. It will help, but not at this time.
I am not dogging the mayor. He is probably a nice guy. But he is a politician.

Haven't heard of any layoffs. Just heard of a hiring freeze. Completely different.

[Patrick]

I think it's funny how Mark Shannon is bashing his own fellow Republican. And how the unions are siding with a pretty conservative, anti-union Republican. Wha? Now, that's crazy.

Mark Shannon is a typical conservative Republican, for lower taxes and smaller government. Of course he opposes MAPS 3 because he wants lower taxes. But, if you think he supports tax increases for fire and police, you're dreaming. And, if you think he backs unions, you're dreaming. He's only using the fire union to further his agenda of getting what he sees as a tax increase defeated. Once he accomplishes that, you'll also see him opposing any increases in taxes for police and fire, or anything else for that matter. If it were up to him, he'd completely privatize the police and fire depts and forget about govt control of the organizations! lol!

Shannon has his own agenda, and if you guys think it's in favor of the police and fire depts, think again. The guy has consistently been anti-union. He's using you guys. lol!

[urbanity]

(Moved to appropriate thread.)

[iron76hd]

I think it's funny how Mark Shannon is bashing his own fellow Republican. And how the unions are siding with a pretty conservative, anti-union Republican. Wha? Now, that's crazy.

Mark Shannon is a typical conservative Republican, for lower taxes and smaller government. Of course he opposes MAPS 3 because he wants lower taxes. But, if you think he supports tax increases for fire and police, you're dreaming. And, if you think he backs unions, you're dreaming. He's only using the fire union to further his agenda of getting what he sees as a tax increase defeated. Once he accomplishes that, you'll also see him opposing any increases in taxes for police and fire, or anything else for that matter. If it were up to him, he'd completely privatize the police and fire depts and forget about govt control of the organizations! lol!

Shannon has his own agenda, and if you guys think it's in favor of the police and fire depts, think again. The guy has consistently been anti-union. He's using you guys. lol!

I could care less if he's against Police and Fire 100%. He's at least letting them speak their peace and present what they see as problems. He's got some spine and not afraid to give another side whether he agrees with them or not. Fair and Balanced!

[zulu5bravo]

Iron won't be on here anymore... Your censor decided he can't post anymore. You guys can debate amongst yourselves as I'm certain I'm next for censure. Iron is a Dem as well. I know, I have debated him. I'm conservative. It's crazy to NOT oppose a political figure because they are in your sane political party. Now, that's blind. Farewell all...

[betts]

I doubt you'll be censured. I'm not a mod, but I've been one elsewhere and I suspect it's his hijacking of threads, "vote no" posts (as they have no value on a discussion board) and such that made that happen, not his political views. As far as I can tell, a wide range of opinions, both political and otherwise, are tolerated on this forum, as long as the debate is mature and thoughtful.

[gmwise]

I am starting to wondered about our fire and police coverage.
Mayor Mickey should have added police and fire.
Now even though I am interested in MAPS3, this is causing me some concern.

[betts]

I am starting to wondered about our fire and police coverage.
Mayor Mickey should have added police and fire.
Now even though I am interested in MAPS3, this is causing me some concern.

I think the problem, as it has been pointed out, is that MAPS is a temporary tax, and so if you hire more policeman using it, the money stops in 7 years. Even the three quarters of a cent permanent sales tax money that is earmarked for police and fire is going to be affected by the recession. I don't really know how money from the general fund is generally divvied. A few more tickets might help. Someone I know who is a policeman says the city makes a fortune on traffic tickets.

I think it's probably reasonable to go up to a cent on the sales tax for funding for additional personnel, if we've got data that shows we need them. What I don't know is how one convinces the city that an increase in the permanent tax is needed. It certainly seems fair for them to consider it.

What I don't think is a good idea, however, is for the police and fire unions to attempt to manipulate city government by threatening to campaign against something unrelated, in order to either punish the city or "show them what will happen" if they don't give in to demands. Ala the "don't negotiate with terrorists" concept (albeit in an extremely mild sense), if the city allows the unions to threaten to stop completely unrelated proposals, what's to stop them from doing it again the next time, when perhaps they don't have as much justification?

[gmwise]

Thanks Betts I appreciate your answer.
And thinking you're on target...wow...is that not scary?..lol

[lump9816]

Look guys and gals, it's very simple. The city's employees, all of them, have always supported the MAP's initiatives. They did so with the belief that what was good for the city would be good for us (city employees). But since it's inception we have been asked to do more with less. We have been promised that if we support maps we will be helping ourselves and we bought it. But when the day is done, all the city has done is cut jobs. The nation is in an economic downturn,we all know that. The question is that the city is asking the citizens to foot the bill to benefit who? The city promised their workers that if maps passed it would benefit everyone (us included), but it hasn't. Why in the world should the average city worker be on board? MAPS has been great for the city and it's citizens, but the city's workers have been left with the short end of the stick!

[iron76hd]

Thank you lump. Nicely put.


Gmwise....

citizens are asking questions...the mayor won't debate or answer....

Someone I know who is a policeman says the city makes a fortune on traffic tickets.

This might be true. I have no idea. I know only $1.00 goes back to the Police Department. That's entirely for new Police Academies. The rest is for the GENERAL FUND.

if the city allows the unions to threaten to stop completely unrelated proposals, what's to stop them from doing it again the next time, when perhaps they don't have as much justification?

I don't think the EVIL Unions totally have the power to completely stop city proposals. Guys and Girls just want to speak up for themselves. Don't be so hard on them. It's America remember. The citizens will vote and they'll decide.

[betts]

Look guys and gals, it's very simple. The city's employees, all of them, have always supported the MAP's initiatives. They did so with the belief that what was good for the city would be good for us (city employees). But since it's inception we have been asked to do more with less. We have been promised that if we support maps we will be helping ourselves and we bought it. But when the day is done, all the city has done is cut jobs. The nation is in an economic downturn,we all know that. The question is that the city is asking the citizens to foot the bill to benefit who? The city promised their workers that if maps passed it would benefit everyone (us included), but it hasn't. Why in the world should the average city worker be on board? MAPS has been great for the city and it's citizens, but the city's workers have been left with the short end of the stick!

MAPS 1 didn't benefit me financially either. I'm not anticipating that any MAPS will benefit me financially, nor do I expect it to. Perhaps if you own a restaurant, or a hotel or work in a restaurant or a hotel MAPS has benefitted one financially. City workers are not the only people being asked to work longer hours for the same or less money. Trust me.

How did MAPS and potentially subsequent MAPS benefit everyone? If you've ever gone to a game at the Bricktown ballpark, you've benefitted. If you've ever gone to a game or a concert at the Ford Center, you've benefitted. If you've ever attended a program at the Civic Center, walked along the Oklahoma River, attended an event there, checked out a book at the Public Library or sent a child to an Oklahoma City school, you've benefitted. That's the problem I have with this discussion. It's not: "What's in it for me financially?" that is the important question, but rather, "Will this help my city become a place I'm proud to live in, to bring visitors to, that I enjoy spending my free time in?"

I don't think there's a person reading this forum who wouldn't like a raise (I get one about every 7 years, if I'm lucky), who wouldn't like more time off. I'm on salary, and yet I'm on call over a hundred days a year. Tough break, but I like my job. So, I'm supposed to vote against MAPS because I haven't benefitted financially from it? The good news is that MAPS has made the days off I do have far more enjoyable than the days prior to MAPS. For that it's worth a few pennies a day, less than I spend on my morning coffee.

[Midtowner]

According to Oklahoma City Personnel Policies, this is a conflict of interest.

City hiring policies don't affect elected officials since it's the taxpayers doing the hiring, not the city.

Next.

[OSUFan]

I don't buy that MAPS 1 didn't help the police and fire departments. Now maybe no new officers were hired but I would be interested in seeing the the police and fire's salaries before MAPS and after MAPS. I have no clue but I would be willing to bet it has risen substantially.

[smooth]

I don't buy that MAPS 1 didn't help the police and fire departments. Now maybe no new officers were hired but I would be interested in seeing the the police and fire's salaries before MAPS and after MAPS. I have no clue but I would be willing to bet it has risen substantially.

I agree with you OSUFan. MAPS created a massive amount of growth including the NBA. That means more tax revenue, which means more in the public safety account, which means new equipment, station improvements, the enhanced radio system and more. THAT DOES help the police and fire departments.

And yes. I am ALWAYS for increased salaries for officers and firefighters. I doubt there is a number high enough to be sufficiant. Without them, I bet all of us would be six feet under.

[Midtowner]

True, quite a bit of economic activity can be directly credited to MAPS. Since public safety receive a percentage of the sales tax collection, them saying that they haven't benefited therefrom is either ignorant or dishonest.

[EBAH]

Oh yeah, I found that statement to be laughable. I think ANYONE who has lived in this city for 15-20+ years can see the economic benefit of Maps on a daily basis. For them to say that it hasn't impacted their funding is just silly. It's too bad we can't take the police and fire union heads in the Back to the Future DeLorean, to the "Biff Tannon 1985" alternate universe version of Oklahoma City. It would be an OKC with no Maps program, no Devon Energy, no revitalized Bricktown, no NBA franchise (hell maybe not even any sports franchises), etc,etc,etc. All of the corporate offices would all be located somewhere between OKC and Edmond, "White Flight" would still be moving at a decent clip. The inner city neighborhoods that I call home would most likely still have bars on the windows and would be surrounded by empty strip malls with people sleeping on the sidewalks in front, Mid town area would still be full of vagrants and the recently released tenants of the OK County jail.

[EBAH]

I don't buy that MAPS 1 didn't help the police and fire departments. Now maybe no new officers were hired but I would be interested in seeing the the police and fire's salaries before MAPS and after MAPS. I have no clue but I would be willing to bet it has risen substantially.

Not to mention, what the impact to the quality of their facilities and equipment is. I'm sure Maps help to fund a couple of decent night vision helicopters (that seem to fly over my house EVERY NIGHT), cruisers, motorcycles, oh, and a multi million dollar police station in Bricktown. I don't want to turn this thread in to "one of those" threads, but, this just sounds like labor union BS.

[lump9816]

You guys are still not getting it. I've been reading this Entire thread and you still think this is about raises? I've read posts from people, who actually know what they are talking about, say repeatedly it's not about raises! OSU, when the original MAPS passed it did nothing for pay raises. Raises are negotiated between the city workers particular union and the city. I don't know about the FOP or AFSCME but the fire dept's wages are negotiated using an agreed upon number of comparative cities in size and population, and rank by rank averaging their salary. They take the highest and the lowest, find the number in the middle, and that determines the wages. Andy could explain it better, but that is the crux of it. Yes, the maps initiatives have been beneficial for us all. I haven't see too much questioning of that. But, since 1994 we have added 2 fire stations, broke ground recently on a third. Other mandated positions have been added as well. Yet we are today 50 bodies less than in 1994. The police are in the same boat. With the progress in bricktown there was a need for another briefing station. The officers needed to staff that station were taken from the streets on the north side, south side, etc. The city didn't hire more officers to staff the bricktown station, they just took them out of your neighborhood. I won't argue with anyone that maps hasn't been beneficial to everyone, as it most certainly has. But when you plan a vacation with your family, pay for it and schedule it months in advance, and be told a week before you plan to go that some or all of the shifts have been cancelled due to manpower problems is a major issue. And it has been this way for 10 years! We want them to address this and they won't. Period! All we want is for the city to do what they've been promising to do for years.

[OSUFan]

You guys are still not getting it. I've been reading this Entire thread and you still think this is about raises? I've read posts from people, who actually know what they are talking about, say repeatedly it's not about raises! OSU, when the original MAPS passed it did nothing for pay raises. Raises are negotiated between the city workers particular union and the city. I don't know about the FOP or AFSCME but the fire dept's wages are negotiated using an agreed upon number of comparative cities in size and population, and rank by rank averaging their salary. They take the highest and the lowest, find the number in the middle, and that determines the wages. Andy could explain it better, but that is the crux of it. Yes, the maps initiatives have been beneficial for us all. I haven't see too much questioning of that. But, since 1994 we have added 2 fire stations, broke ground recently on a third. Other mandated positions have been added as well. Yet we are today 50 bodies less than in 1994. The police are in the same boat. With the progress in bricktown there was a need for another briefing station. The officers needed to staff that station were taken from the streets on the north side, south side, etc. The city didn't hire more officers to staff the bricktown station, they just took them out of your neighborhood. I won't argue with anyone that maps hasn't been beneficial to everyone, as it most certainly has. But when you plan a vacation with your family, pay for it and schedule it months in advance, and be told a week before you plan to go that some or all of the shifts have been cancelled due to manpower problems is a major issue. And it has been this way for 10 years! We want them to address this and they won't. Period! All we want is for the city to do what they've been promising to do for years.

I'm not disputing any of that. What I've yet to see anwered is how defeating MAPS 3 gets you an inch close to any of your goals.

[betts]

But when you plan a vacation with your family, pay for it and schedule it months in advance, and be told a week before you plan to go that some or all of the shifts have been cancelled due to manpower problems is a major issue. And it has been this way for 10 years! We want them to address this and they won't. Period! All we want is for the city to do what they've been promising to do for years.

I agree, this is not right. But, who is "they"? Having been a government employee my entire life, I understand some of the politics, although I work for the state, essentially. However, there is someone called the fire chief, and he has a staff under him. Are you telling me that he is told by the city specifically to cancel shifts? He has absolutely no power or influence? Or people under him haven't figured out how to apportion leave so there's always backup? As I said here before, we have slots for leave, and they're available on a first-come, first-served basis. If we're worried we might not have enough staff, there either is no leave available over that time period, or the number of slots is decreased. Or, if something happens that wasn't forseen, we understaff and/or the people there work harder and longer hours. We don't get overtime, so that's not an issue. You may indeed need more employees, but MAPS not passing isn't going to have any effect on manpower in the fire department that I can see. It may have a negative effect, if anything.

[lump9816]

osu, to answer your question it doesn't. I think most city workers, myself included are not so much in the "vote no" camp as they are in the "we can't support this at this time" mode. Every past maps vote had the full support of all three city worker's unions, and that's what city hall wants. All of us wanting to make the city better for everyone. But when you've been told time and time again that "if you help us then we'll help you", only to be continuiosly put on ignore by the city, it has to come to a boil sooner or later. It is now later. Betts, the city does not cancel shifts, the chief of operations or the district chief does. This mainly because of oji's or fmla occurances occuring between the time you schedule off and the actual day you go on (or don't) leave. The city has so many stations and rigs. There is what we call minimum manning for each shift. Manning can not be below that number. If there is an unforseen event such as above, then someone gets bumped on their day or days. The fire chief and the union have come up with ways to address this problem, a call back board amongst other options, but the CITY won't entertain the thought. As long as we can scrape by on that minimum number, the city doesn't care if it's employees can or can't use their earned leave. That's one of the many issues we want to talk to the city about, but they continue to be deaf to the discussion.

[betts]

osu, to answer your question it doesn't. I think most city workers, myself included are not so much in the "vote no" camp as they are in the "we can't support this at this time" mode. Every past maps vote had the full support of all three city worker's unions, and that's what city hall wants. All of us wanting to make the city better for everyone. But when you've been told time and time again that "if you help us then we'll help you", only to be continuiosly put on ignore by the city, it has to come to a boil sooner or later. It is now later. Betts, the city does not cancel shifts, the chief of operations or the district chief does. This mainly because of oji's or fmla occurances occuring between the time you schedule off and the actual day you go on (or don't) leave. The city has so many stations and rigs. There is what we call minimum manning for each shift. Manning can not be below that number. If there is an unforseen event such as above, then someone gets bumped on their day or days. The fire chief and the union have come up with ways to address this problem, a call back board amongst other options, but the CITY won't entertain the thought. As long as we can scrape by on that minimum number, the city doesn't care if it's employees can or can't use their earned leave. That's one of the many issues we want to talk to the city about, but they continue to be deaf to the discussion.

If I were the chief, I'd pin every single person responsible down on that issue. I'd make each councilperson and the mayor state publicly that it's fine with them if people have to cancel their vacation. Were I the fire chief, I'd take that personally, and I'd work someone's shifts for them so they could go on vacation, and then I'd call the tv news stations to come by and film it. It may be partially the city's fault for letting it happen, but there's shared responsbility, and the chief is responsible for the health and welfare of his employees. That's how I'd deal with this, not by telling my members not to vote against MAPS. Again, what will that accomplish? The city council and mayor are 9 people. If you sincerely believe passing MAPS will be good for the city, you're hurting 1.3 million people to get at those 9. Again, I'd spend all my money, time and energy campaigning against them when they run for office. That is a reasonable thing to do, IMO, because then you're actually doing something politically that will directly affect your issue.