OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

[venture]

We use to update this quite a bit, but it has been several months so going to start this over fresh with some news this morning.

AMR, parent of American and Ameircan Eagle, unleashed their major restructuring plan today. OKC will be impacted. The plan calls for the pull down of the ex-TWA hub at St. Louis. In turn, OKC will lose service on Eagle to STL. Doesn't seem like any additional service will backfill this at all. They will be adding first class cabins to their Bombardier CRJ-700 aircraft, which may have an impact on OKC should they be operating here then.

AMR Corporation Takes Significant Steps to Face Near-Term Challenges - Yahoo! Finance

[metro]

On these airline threads, can you break down the technical jargon for the average layperson please.

[venture]

When we get to that point sure. : )

Also, Frontier's subsidiary Lynx will add another Dash 8 Q400 flight to Denver, bringing it up to a total of 5 daily flights to DEN now on Frontier. Looks like the additional flight will start in November, or the last part of October.

[westsidesooner]

Venture;

This isnt totally related but I found it an interesting read as I was trying to wake up this morning. It appears the Govt is spending a lot of their funding on small "general-aviation" airports. Obviously this isnt my most knowledgable field so I was curious about your opinion V. I couldnt find the graph they had in the paper so I'm gonna do my best to improvise it.

Large Airports (30) 69% of passenger load recieved $13.1 billion
Medium Airports (37) 20% of passenger load recieved $8.1 billion
Small Airports (72) 8% of passengers recieved $8.1 billion
Non-Hub Airports (244) 3% of passnegers recieved $9.6 billion
Commercial Service Airports (139) 0.1% of passengers $1.6 billion
General Aviation Airports (2,834) 0% of passengers recieved $15.1 billion

I'm not sure which classification our airports fall under, and I'm not qualified to judge how the money is spent, but it seems like an awful lot of the money we are charged in airline, airport, and other fees as we fly around the country using passenger jets are being funneled to the general aviation airpots that cater to the wealthy and corporations that own private jets.
Being familiar with airports and flying I'm hoping you can shed some light on this apparent overfunding of small airports.

Heres a clip from the story:

WILLIAMSBURG, Ky. — One of the USA's newest airports has a 5,500-foot lighted runway, a Colonial-style terminal with white columns, and hundreds of acres for growth. But Kentucky's Williamsburg-Whitley County Airport lacks one feature: airline passengers.
Built using $11 million in federal money, the airport is used only by private airplanes. Many are piston-engine aircraft owned by residents such as Keith Brashear, the airport board chairman who keeps his two-seat Cessna in the airport hangar. On a typical day, the airport has just two or three flights, manager Jessica Roberts says. Some days, there are none.

The Williamsburg airport is the result of an obscure federal program that raises billions of dollars a year through taxes on every airplane ticket sold in the United States. The taxes can add up to 15% to the cost of a flight — or about $29 to a $200 round-trip ticket.

The rest of the article can be found here: Feds keep little-used airports in business - USATODAY.com

[venture]

There is an on going battle with commercial aviation and general aviation. A couple points. 1) Commercial Aviation...passenger airlines in particular...is one of the highest taxed industries in the country. 2) Airlines don't think they should fund the ATC system and other features for general aviation. 3) General aviation airports don't only cater to the wealthy and businesses...this is really a smaller portion than you think.

General aviation airports are really key to a lot of cities. This is where most pilots get their start at a local flying school at age 15 or 16. These airports are points on the map to receive supplies and mail service (not all mail is carried on the bigger jets). Yes they do cater to the business community which is important if there isn't a major commercial airport nearby, the local business can charter an aircraft to where they need to go. Not to mention other uses such as military, law enforcement, medical transport, and other types of cargo.

Now are they a flut of small airports? Sure there are some that aren't needed anymore. In some cases it may be better to consolidate or allow those airports to convert to be privately owned - and a few are going that way.

I'll have to go through and look at the requirements for each ranking again, I believe KOKC (will rogers) is considered a Small Hub Airport for the number of passengers it puts through. Airports like KLAW (Lawton) would be Non-Hub Airports. Whereas Wiley Post, CE Page, etc are all General Aviation Airports.

It is a double edged sword...but general aviation has a huge impact on the economy and its not just the wealthy or big business. Especially out here in Fly Over Country...there are a lot of communities where their local small airport is the best thing they have going for them for transporting goods in and out.

[westsidesooner]

Thanks for the info Venture. I wasn't meaning to knock general aviation airports, although it may have come across that way in my post. Especially ones like Wiley Post (I know it stays busy). But it does seem odd that there are so many rural airports on federal BLM lands. Wouldnt it be cheaper to land a plane 30-40 miles away and truck whatever cargo was headed to that location, than maintain an airstrip that might see 1-10 planes per week.

[brianinok]

Any chance of OKC getting some of the increased flights from JFK, O'Hare, and/or Miami?

[venture]

Any chance of OKC getting some of the increased flights from JFK, O'Hare, and/or Miami?

Right now I would say no. For data available through June of this year, OKC is down around 200K passengers from July 08-June 09 when comparing it to the same period a year earlier. Chicago market dropped from 126 passengers a day to 101 passengers a day. I would imagine New York and Miami are pretty weak as well as they aren't even over 50 passengers per day. So those routes you could argue barely would support a 50-seat jet. Though you could argue connections in New York support the current 1 flight a day on Continental. I'm not sure how much Central/South American markets are in demand from OKC, and they would directly impact the demand for MIA. Right now, I think AA is happy to route people through DFW for that.

I would also point out that over the last year, fares in OKC are up 4% and up 10% over the next 9 years. Which is in the opposite trend of the nation (down around 5% on average). Except for a couple airlines moving to gain market share (Frontier), I would expect capacity will continue to be drawn down in OKC and fares raised. Airlines are going to try to raise yields out of here and start making some money.

[venture]

Thanks for the info Venture. I wasn't meaning to knock general aviation airports, although it may have come across that way in my post. Especially ones like Wiley Post (I know it stays busy). But it does seem odd that there are so many rural airports on federal BLM lands. Wouldnt it be cheaper to land a plane 30-40 miles away and truck whatever cargo was headed to that location, than maintain an airstrip that might see 1-10 planes per week.

Yeah, I think it depends on the infrastructure in place. You look at a lot of airports in Alaska or other extremely rural cities...you have the airport in town and the town right there...and that's it. Very little if any adequate road network connecting towns. Or no company there to truck the shipments around.

Yeah the airport price tag is pretty high, but these are typically investments that last for decades with proper care. I agree there are some airports that don't need to be around or get the millions they do. Then there are some that really need more.

[brianinok]

I know this is a little off topic, but I don't know where else to ask it. Has anyone else flown out of Will Rogers about 9:00 am recently? I am planning on getting there about 8:00 and was wondering if the garage would be open. I don't want to have to park in a shuttle lot. I'll sure be glad when the new garage is open.

[brianinok]

For those who are interested, I had to park in a shuttle lot AGAIN. I got back last night and my shuttle driver said that they have been told the new garage will be open on Thursday when I mentioned that the garage looked nearly completed.

[venture]

Referencing this post on A.net: OAG Changes 10/16/09: AA/CO/DL/FL/NW/UA/WN/ZK — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

Changes are effective from April forward compared to currently available flights.

American to Chicago will go from 3 to 5 daily.
Southwest to Denver will go from 2 daily to 1.8 daily.
Southwest to Houston will go from 3.7 to 3.5 daily.
Southwest to Kansas City will go from 1.8 to 2 daily flights.
Southwest to St. Louis will go from 1.5 to 1.8 daily.

Overall American is giving us the capacity back that is being lost from the St Louis cuts. Southwest is seems like it might be a wash, or and overall net loss of a few seats. Frontier seems to be holding on pretty well in defending the Denver route.

[OUman]

Something to note, DL/NW had a daily DC 9-50 this summer between OKC and MEM. For winter however it will be two CRJ 200s and a daily CRJ 900 to/from MEM.

It appears DL Connection will have 5-6 CRJ 700s between OKC and ATL this winter (but an all CRJ 700 operation as it is moving away from using the now-inefficient CRJ 100s/200s), Frontier has transitioned back to an all-Lynx operation with Q400 turboprops but 5 daily, UA will have all-Airbus mainline service to/from DEN as the last of its 737s gets retired, Southwest is still around 19 daily with its current airports served to/from OKC, and DL Connection/NW Airlink will maintain a daily CRJ 900 to/from DTW.

From what I know TUL still gets a 757-200 daily on DFW-TUL-DFW and will get a mainline MD 82/83 ORD-TUL-ORD in Summer '10.

[venture]

I'm shocked more Tulsa flights aren't mainline and larger aircraft simply for repositioning for maintenance there.

[OUman]

I'm shocked more Tulsa flights aren't mainline and larger aircraft simply for repositioning for maintenance there.

TUL's traffic levels are smaller than OKC's, so having more mainliners on short hops wouldn't be profitable anyway.

[Oil Capital]

I'm shocked more Tulsa flights aren't mainline and larger aircraft simply for repositioning for maintenance there.

That pretty much only applies to American Airlines, and I think they do have a few more mainline aircraft serving TUL for that reason.

[brianinok]

I'm glad American is increasing service to Chicago. They have more Europe flights from there than DFW and it's more convenient flying through there with 5 flights a day rather than 3. I wish a couple of them were mainline jets. 10 regional jets a day (between American and United) to O'Hare seems ridiculous. And the government wonders why airports are crowded? It's because they allow too many regional jets to the same city. RJs to LAX and EWR make sense; RJs to ATL, ORD, and IAH don't. Period.

[venture]

That pretty much only applies to American Airlines, and I think they do have a few more mainline aircraft serving TUL for that reason.

That was my point. With the AA base there, I am shocked the service isn't done with more mainline and other larger aircraft to cycle through more. I understand the pax levels are lower than here. Planes have to go there anyway, why not make some money along the way. Just like what RenoAir did with having the mx in OKC, they decided to sell tickets on the flights.

[HOT ROD]

with that same logic, i will continue the point - and wonder why AS does not sell seats on their SEA-OKC mtc runs? ?? This could be done "AT LEAST" one flight per week. ....

You would think at least a few people would make the flight (myself being one possible).

The AS planes are coming to WRWA anyways, why not make one or two flights a week (at least) revenue generating?

[LakeEffect]

with that same logic, i will continue the point - and wonder why AS does not sell seats on their SEA-OKC mtc runs? ?? This could be done "AT LEAST" one flight per week. ....

You would think at least a few people would make the flight (myself being one possible).

The AS planes are coming to WRWA anyways, why not make one or two flights a week (at least) revenue generating?

AS doesn't have to fly a crew to a dead end location this way... If they operated a flight, then they'd have 2, maybe three flight attendants plus two pilots. Also, I wonder if they actually have someone else, on contract, fly the planes here instead of their regular pilots.

[OUman]

Is AS still getting some maintainence work done at ARINC at OKC? I wonder because I never see its flights on FlightAware or Flight Stats any longer.

[blangtang]

anyone seen this? makes me feel good inside

"FAA inspectors are pursuing allegations by pilots that one of those MD-80s was believed to be in such poor condition that it was ferried without passengers from Dallas to the carrier's Tulsa, Oklahoma maintenance base at unusually low altitudes to avoid the stress of pressurizing the fuselage during the trip, the newspaper said."

FAA probe of American Airlines may widen: report | Reuters

[betts]

AviationNews.net

I didn't notice this in posts above:
Frontier also announced it will begin nonstop service from Will Rogers World Airport in Oklahoma City to two popular Florida destinations. Beginning Jan. 15, 2010, Frontier will fly nonstop flights four to five times a week between Oklahoma City and Orlando International. And on Jan. 17, 2010, Frontier will fly nonstop flights two days per week between Oklahoma City and Tampa International. These routes will operate seasonally using Embraer E190 aircraft.

[venture]

Beat me. :-P

Hopefully Florida will finally be able to work from here.

Oct 21, 2009
Frontier Expands Service to Louisville and New Orleans


Seasonal Service from Oklahoma City to Orlando and Tampa Also Added


DENVER, October 21, 2009 - Frontier Airlines today announced it will begin daily nonstop service from its hub at Denver International Airport (DEN) to both Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport (MSY) and Louisville International Airport (SDF). The SDF service will start on April 19, 2010, while the MSY service will begin June 15, 2010. Each city will have one daily nonstop flight operated by Airbus A319 aircraft.

Also today, Frontier announced it will begin the only nonstop service from Will Rogers World Airport (OKC) in Oklahoma City to two popular Florida destinations. Beginning Jan. 15, 2010, Frontier will fly nonstop flights four to five times a week between OKC and Orlando International Airport (MCO). And on Jan. 17, 2010, Frontier will fly nonstop flights two days per week between OKC and Tampa International Airport (TPA). These routes will operate seasonally using Embraer E190 aircraft.

“We are happy to bring our affordable fares and great customer service to these routes,” said Frontier Vice President of Strategy and Planning Daniel M. Shurz. “The arrival of three new Airbus A320 aircraft next spring allows us to expand to a growing list of destinations. And we are pleased to offer the fastest and most convenient way to get from Oklahoma to Florida.”

Here are the schedules for the new flights:

Oklahoma City-Orlando

Flight
Number
Departs Arrives Frequency
1610 2:50 p.m. 6:30 p.m.
Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat
Tue start Feb 16
Orlando-Oklahoma City

Flight
Number
Departs Arrives Frequency
1611 12:20 p.m. 2:15 p.m.
Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat
Tue start Feb 16
Oklahoma City-Tampa

Flight
Number
Departs Arrives Frequency
1616 2:25 p.m. 5:55 p.m. Thu/Sunday
Tampa-Oklahoma City

Flight
Number
Departs Arrives Frequency
1617 12:05 p.m. 1:50 p.m. Thu/Sunday
Denver-Louisville

Flight
Number
Departs Arrives Frequency
362 11:15 a.m. 3:42 p.m. Daily
Louisville-Denver

Flight
Number
Departs Arrives Frequency
363 4:25 p.m. 5:27 p.m. Daily
Denver-New Orleans

Flight
Number
Departs Arrives Frequency
702 1:25 p.m. 5:02 p.m. Daily
New Orleans-Denver

Flight
Number
Departs Arrives Frequency
701 6:00 p.m. 7:48 p.m. Daily
The OKC flights and DEN-SDF flights will be available for purchase at FrontierAirlines.com on Oct. 22. DEN-MSY will be available on Nov. 1. For the latest updates on new fare sales, follow us on Twitter @FrontierSale.

About Frontier Airlines

Frontier Airlines is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings Inc, an airline holding company that owns Chautauqua Airlines, Midwest Airlines, Republic Airlines and Shuttle America. Currently in its 16th year of operations, Frontier is the second-largest jet service carrier at Denver International Airport, employing approximately 5,000 aviation professionals. Frontier is made up of one of the youngest Airbus fleets in North America offering 24 channels of DIRECTV® service in every seatback along with a comfortable all-coach configuration. Frontier offers routes to more than 50 destinations in the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica. In addition, Frontier and Midwest have a codeshare partnership that allows passengers of both airlines access to 70 destinations in the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica.

For more in-depth information on Frontier Airlines and to book tickets, please visit its Web site at FrontierAirlines.com.

[venture]

Southwest will add a 3rd daily flight to Denver starting in March. The attack on Frontier is starting...but it is good to know, OKC is one of Frontier's stronger cities.