OKC Police & Fire needs

[sellit]

I am not a policeman, fireman or city employee, just a concerned citizen. Not sure why you are implying blackmail. It's called stating the facts.

[Midtowner]

I am not a policeman, fireman or city employee, just a concerned citizen. Not sure why you are implying blackmail. It's called stating the facts.

Perhaps it's because your policy is aimed at attacking something completely unrelated because you didn't get what you wanted?

If it's not blackmail, it sure is childish.

[andy157]

Well that's the first time you've mentioned the fairgrounds. Is that your new primary reason for opposing MAPS III? Or has it been that all along? I thought it was a personnel issue or a vacation time issue, the former, I think was put squarely to bed by Patrick and the later is just a reality for everyone in 2009. So now it's the fairgrounds thing, eh?

But as to the Ford Center, yeah, I imagine if there are shortfalls, MAPS III money could shore those up. Like I said before, the current ballot language doesn't require the Council to do anything besides collect $777 million to be spent on capital improvements. Just about the only thing which could not be considered capital improvements would be salaries.

Still though, the smart money says that the Police and Fire unions should support this thing, then lobby for a piece of the pie in terms of new plants and equipment once MAPS III is underway.

No, I mentioned my displeasure with the Fairgrounds long before this issue became an issue. Remember I'm no longer active, and I agree with you, salaries are not Capitol Improvments. Let me ask you this. If, I say IF there is in fact a shortfall in the current tax, and the FC/PF have to be completed using MAPS 3 dollars, would you think thats appropriate and would you support those expenditures? Not that it matters, I'm just curious.

[Midtowner]

Let me ask you this. If, I say IF there is in fact a shortfall in the current tax, and the FC/PF have to be completed using MAPS 3 dollars, would you think thats appropriate and would you support those expenditures? Not that it matters, I'm just curious.

The way things are worded, that could easily happen. And would I support it? I probably would, but whatever was cut in order to build the FC, I'd still be in the "I told you so" mode.

It's almost a given though that something will have to be cut in order to fix the Ford Center up. My guess is it'll be something which will also need a lot of operating capital like the whitewater area or the senior swimming centers.

[andy157]

The current park has ZERO police officers regularly patrolling. Same with the canal, at least during the day. I don't imagine that number will change an awful lot.



A good friend of mine patrols the southside during the late shift, so he's one of those nine. He doesn't mind it at all. In fact, he really likes his job. I don't think that "only 9" officers is the important bit of information here. We need to know whether 9 officers is inadequate and what would constitute adequate and why that is. Maybe 9 officers is all we need?



Well, no one is really being clear. On the one hand, this is about vacation time. On the other, it's about personnel. Data from cities of similar size shows that we do not have a personnel problem, and if we do, it is because current personnel are being underutilized.



The fire stations I've seen have been nice, clean places. Which ones are "falling down"?



This is par for the course with our City Council. They're elected politicians and they'll vote the way they're told to vote. Citizens comment periods are usually a joke. These folks can be influenced, but if you're waiting until Council Meetings to get your say in, you're too late.

I think one of the problems here is the issues are getting somewhat mixed up. The Police Officers issue has to do with wanting additional personal. The issue that concerns the Firefighters has to do with having their earned leave time cancelled after it has been approved, schedualed, and planned for.

[Patrick]

If I were the unions, I'd also support MAPS 3, if for no other reason than opposing MAPS 3 doesn't put you in good position to bargain with city hall for your own needs and wants. Personally, I think MAPS 3 and improvements in city services can occur simultaneously. Put on a good face with city hall, support MAPS 3 for the improvements it will make in transit and quality of life in our city, then lobby city hall hard for the money you want. But do it in a way that's tactful and intellectual, and not using immature methods of retaliation and such. I really doubt the city is completely closed off to the ideas the unions are presenting. For the most part, city hall is pretty supportive of our fire and police departments. But, staging an aggressive retailiation by opposing MAPS 3 could derail such support, and make any efforts in the future by both unions fruitless. Such tactics turn anyone off and close the door of communication. Just look to none other than Moshe Tal for what not to do when bargaining with city hall.

I'm not opposed to increasing manpower in either department, I'm just opposed to the method the unions are trying to use to achieve that effect....basically halting progress in our city as retaliation for that fact that manpower hasn't increased....as if such retailiation is going to "wake up" the minds of our city leaders. If anything, it will only close off any discussion with them.

As far as funds falling short for any MAPS program or the Ford Center improvements, unfortunately, that's just the nature of the beast, and not necessarily the city's fault. For example, the $777 million is just an estimate of how much sales tax revenue the city will collect over that time. There's always the chance it will fall short. If you look back to the MAPS 1 program, with each project put up for bid, there was the base project, and then a wishlist of extras presented. Based on how much money was budgeted for the project and where the bids came in for the base project and the extra wishlist items, that determined what was completed. The base project was always completed, but the extras depended on funding available. Remember, even with MAPS 1, specifics weren't mentioned when the program was proposed....there's no way you can get that detailed when presenting a proposal of that magnitude.....it's all conceptual drawings. You'll probably remember that the initial pictures in MAPS 1 campaign materials actually looked quite different than what actually came about. But, that's not a bad thing. You learn as you go, and personally, I think the end result looks far better than the initial conceptual drawings. As an example, the library in conceptual drawings looked like a standard square brick building. What we ended up with was a pretty modernistic, unique looking structure. In the end though, we still got what we were basically promised in the projects proposed.

Concerning the fairgrounds.....well, I think most of us agree we would've liked to have seen that come out of the hotel-motel tax. But truth is, much of that money is tied up for at least the next 10 years in continued improvements to the horse facilities and state fair arena. The current state of the exhibit buildings at state fair park is prettty grave, and having a large continuous exhibition space sooner rather than later, could really help attract more trade shows, and pump more money into our economy sooner rather than later. The improvements to exhibit space at state fair park proposed by MAPS 3 would radically change the overall use of state fair park on the trade show side of things. And $60 million isn't a bad price considering how much return we'll get from having such a space. The amount of money that state fair park pumps into our local economy is huge.

[betts]

I think one of the problems here is the issues are getting somewhat mixed up. The Police Officers issue has to do with wanting additional personal. The issue that concerns the Firefighters has to do with having their earned leave time cancelled after it has been approved, schedualed, and planned for.

Wouldn't that be an internal issue? Who outside of the department would have the authority to do that?

[Patrick]

I have a really good idea for you...Next time someone is stealing the wheels off a car, burglarizing your neighborhood (yes it does happen even in gated communities! I know hard for you to believe but it does happen) or responding to your non injury accident that you don't think is a priority even though you will need that police report for your insurance to get your little car fixed...don't call 911 CALL THE MAYOR!

You can put a cop on every street corner and it's not going to stop the above from happening. Crime happens...period. And increasing manpower isn't going to do a thing about it. Strategy on the otherhand might. Instead of discussing increasing manpower, why not discuss improving the efficiency and target effect of the people we currently have in place?

I don't see how you don't think the two issues are related??? If you are planning to grow these parts of the city..WHO IS GOING TO MAN & TAKE CARE OF THEM? Yes there are officers in that area now, but tell me in your expert opinion do you think if there is some concert or venue in the fancy new park, should it require more than two officers there for public safety? Cause I have a feeling that you would like to have more than one "whiner" there to control fights, drunks, etc. so you and your family could enjoy what you came for.

I'm not completely opposed to increasing manpower, I'm opposed to the union's tactics in trying to do so......blackmail if you will. They're going to get you absolutely nowhere, and in fact, will likely shut the door on any future discussions regarding the issues of interest. Why can't you guys debate the issue, instead of using immature methods like retaliation, blackmail, and such? All you're hurting is yourselves and everyone else, and pissing people off in the process. I'm not a city leader, but if I were, and the unions proposed this sort of immature blackmail crap, it would turn me completely off from any future discussions regarding increase in manpower, or any other demands they might have. I'm an educated professional I treat my peers in a professional, non-threatening manner, and I expect the same in return. I'm sure the same can be said with the professionals running our city.

You are correct. Citizens do have a high approval rating for our city services. My challenge to you is to ask one of those citizens if they know there is 9 officers on any given night covering the ENTIRE SOUTH SIDE?? That was alarming to me. As a citizen, is that number alarming to you? Did you know about the shortage until what you call the people who protect YOU and our city "whiners" pointed it out? Or does it really not pertain to you because you don't live on the southside?

If it's such a major problem, where's the large public outcry from citizens on the southside? Seems like if it were such a problem, southsiders would be lining the chambers of city hall every Tuesday complaining. They'd be hitting the airways promoting their agenda. But, instead, they're filling out surveys saying they're satisfied with quality of police and fire services they're provided with.

Due to what you might believe, the unions only asked for further review. THIS WAS NOT A PLOY TO GET A RAISE!! Why can't you get that? Fireman were willing to give UP their raises so they could have more manpower.

Raises....more manpower...whatever. It all results in an increase in funding. You guys are wanting an increase in funding for your department while every other governmental agency is getting a cut. Face it, the economy sucks.....why are you guys any more special than any other governmental agency?

How is there a hidden agenda there?? They are sacrificing their raise to protect the city..oh yeah what a hidden agenda! Get a clue.

The end result is the same....increased spending on fire and police services in our city.

Just because the people who represent fire/police/city employees stand up to voice their concerns now all of the sudden people like YOU want to call someone a "whiner".

I have no problems with you standing up and representing yourself at council meetings and the like. I have a problem with immature blackmail tactics you're using like launching a campaign to oppose MAPS 3, all because you didn't get your damn way.

I love how your answer is for them to just go get another job. Obviously you are a doctor of some sort by your past post, would you just go get another job if you needed help at work??

No, I'd just make the best of the circumstances, and be understanding that the economy sucks, and accept the cut. Shoot...every department at the VA and OUHSC has faced budget cuts. Am I whining about it? Of course not. I'm just dealing with it and facing the reality of the economy we're in. Am I happy with it? Of course not. But, making unrealistic requests like asking OUHSC for a raise when every dept is facing budget cuts would be absolutely ridiculous on my part.

Police & Fire do this job because they have a passion for their work as civil servants. I would hope you had the same passion.

Definitely.

Why won't you take a few minutes out of your schedule to do a ride along? Visit a fire station? Drive by one that is falling down due to non maintenance?

Been there, done that. Haven't yet seen a fire station falling down, and every cruiser I've been in has been well equipped and in good working order.

Again, in your expert opinion please tell me why the Mayor when ask by the capitol to engage in a public debate about MAPS he refused?? What does he have to hide? Im not sure if you watched it, but at the city council meeting where MAPS was put to a vote he DISMISSED every person that had anything to say against the vote EVEN THE CONCERNED CITIZENS who just wanted to be heard. Guess it was almost his lunch time & he had better things to do.

There's more to the story than what you're telling. His reason was that there's no point in debating something until all of the details have been released. Complete waste of time. Once the full details are released, than the debate can go on.

I believe you will see record numbers for MAPS vote this election. There is people like me who is making it a pririoity to get the information out about the lack of manpower to our city services & let them make the decisions. I think you are going to be surprised.

Again, you've made it your agenda to try to get MAPS voted down because you feel it will further your cause to get an increase in funding for fire and police depts. Again, voting down MAPS WILL NOT increase funding for such services, and your efforts to oppose MAPS 3 will likely piss off city leaders to the point to where you'll have a ghost in a hell's chance of ever getting what you want. On the flip side, maintaining professionalism and not engaging in childish pissing matches will keep you on solid footing to engage in more effective lobbying efforts.

[andy157]

Wouldn't that be an internal issue? Who outside of the department would have the authority to do that?

The Supreme Authority, The City Council.

[Patrick]

If MAPS 3 fails, I think you're going to be surprised to find that fact won't change anything regarding police and fire services compensation or personnel issues. And, there may be people who are so opposed to blackmail by the unions that their previously positive regard for these departments changes.

I agree. People have a high regard of the police and fire depts now, but a bloody MAPS 3 opposition campaign led by the unions could result in that reputation changing, and jeopardize any future funding for the departments. So, such opposition is more likely than not to only backfire on the departments. What would be more effective is taking the high road, using an informed and educated lobbying strategy to get what you want from city hall, and not resorting to bloody retaliation tactics, something a 3rd grader would do.

[Platemaker]

If MAPS 3 fails, I think you're going to be surprised to find that fact won't change anything regarding police and fire services compensation or personnel issues. And, there may be people who are so opposed to blackmail by the unions that their previously positive regard for these departments changes.

Yep... there would be a whole new lot of 'cop-haters'.

[betts]

The Supreme Authority, The City Council.

That is not right. If they are cancelling leave because we do not have enough personnel to cover, then it is their responsibility to make it right. That could be by hiring new people, or reducing the responsibilities of existing personnel. As I said, I'm not sure we need two firemen responding to all ambulance calls, if that is indeed the case, so there might be options outside of increasing manpower, but something should be done. That assumes people are working at least 40 hours a week, and not asking for less, of course.

[Patrick]

I am not a policeman, fireman or city employee, just a concerned citizen. Not sure why you are implying blackmail. It's called stating the facts.

Blackmail is letting the city know that if they don't meet your demands, i.e., increasing manpower in the fire and police departments, you're going to launch an opposition effort to any other city-led for improvements and increased spending elsewhere, i.e. MAPS 3.

[Patrick]

That is not right. If they are cancelling leave because we do not have enough personnel to cover, then it is their responsibility to make it right. That could be by hiring new people, or reducing the responsibilities of existing personnel. As I said, I'm not sure we need two firemen responding to all ambulance calls, if that is indeed the case, so there might be options outside of increasing manpower, but something should be done. That assumes people are working at least 40 hours a week, and not asking for less, of course.

Couldn't agree more. Before we hire more people, let's improve the efficiency of the people we have. How? Like I said, simply stop having police respond to non-injury accidents. If that's city policy, insurance companies will simply have to suck it up and deal with it. Regarding the fire dept., stop responding to ambulance calls. Why the hell do we need both the fire dept and EMSA at the scene of every ambulance call? Sounds like duplication to me. The fire dept needs to be responding to fires, not someone's grandpa that had a fall in the house, or 57 year old Bob that passed out from a heart attack....that's what we have an ambulance service for, one that will be on more solid footing now with funding on citizens' water bills.

[Mikemarsh51]

Betts, you obviously unaware of how the system works. The person who decides who makes calls and in what type of response is the Medical Director. A Dr. hired by the city council to determine the best way to run EMS. OCFD and Emsa are the two main components of that system. OCPD are also 1st responders. The Medical Director is in charge of the protocols. He sets which calls are answered and how. You might contact him if you are mad about all this.

I started with this department at $5.18 an hour in 1984. Almost $2.00 an hour less the sanitation workers were hired at. This is the best deal going for the city, a department that covers all emergencies. EMS, motor vehicle accidents, hazardous materials, fires, USAR, collapse, trench rescue, fire prevention, public education, code enforcement, arson and everything that doesnt fit into a catagory.

Our police and fire departments would storm hell with a water pistol to protect our citizens. They are incredible bargains for what they receive. It amazes me that people on here want to pick things apart to save a couple of bucks. It's never the people that we meet who have come close to dying or losing everything that are bitching about cost's. They are the ones who say thank you. I know because I watched as they worked my mother in law.

[smooth]

Couldn't agree more. Before we hire more people, let's improve the efficiency of the people we have. How? Like I said, simply stop having police respond to non-injury accidents. If that's city policy, insurance companies will simply have to suck it up and deal with it. Regarding the fire dept., stop responding to ambulance calls. Why the hell do we need both the fire dept and EMSA at the scene of every ambulance call? Sounds like duplication to me. The fire dept needs to be responding to fires, not someone's grandpa that had a fall in the house, or 57 year old Bob that passed out from a heart attack....that's what we have an ambulance service for, one that will be on more solid footing now with funding on citizens' water bills.

Patrick. I know you are a physician, however, I will address this. The fire department often arrives ahead of EMSA. If it is a full arrest, for example, they can start treatment and can save a life. EMSA only has about 12 ambulances on call at one time. They can be anywhere. It is realistically possible the EMSA unit can be several miles away, versus the fire department maybe a mile or two. Think of the "golden hour." I would much rather see a fire department paramedic respond in addition to EMSA. Who knows. The life they save could be yours... Or mine. I will also add. The fire department can assist with lifting heavy patients. EMSA has several paramedic teams that are small women who can not lift a heavy person alone.

If EMSA arrives first and they have the scene under control, they will cancel the fire department and return them to service. Same in return.

[zulu5bravo]

I've yet to see one argument how defeating maps will help the police or fire departments do their jobs better. I'M WAITING!

Well... one "argument" that comes to mind is if the city passes a new sales tax in 2009... how can it expect to get a possible second sales tax to pass a vote of the people to fund city workers?

The "raises" the PD is reportedly in such ire about is not even on the proposed contract with the city. There is no raise as the PD isn't asking for a raise.

It de-policing no doubt... but it included fire and 911 along with all those workers that dutifully collect your trash, deliver your water, and any other city service that people come to expect.

The media conveniently leaves out huge chunks of information being given to them. The PD had to jump through city council hoops just to get the study done and scrutinized. It's been years in the making before the economy tanked.

The unions have only asked to be included in the proposed funding. I'm certain it is difficult to muster up morale to go "above and beyond" when the city council and city doesn't support them (while pushing the Heart of the City campaign to get city employees to give so the council can get their city goals).

As a friend of mine said on his Facebook status... remodeled seats at the Ford center in the suites and they got rid of the worthless low couch... I'm glad he can see the game better and enjoys the new big screens while people put their lives on the line answering fire calls short-handed and PD answers your prowler calls alone. How many times have I had to explain WHY I couldn't be there sooner, wasn't there to stop it, etc... I wanted to be there but couldn't.

I'm certain that makes those workers families feel real great to know the seats are comfortable...

[zulu5bravo]

OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

Can you not research these facts yourself voter or will you vote without knowing these facts because they weren't handed to you on this forum? You will "continue to support MAPS"... it's pointless to discuss this with you... your mind is made up. That's a real fact - uninformed voter.

[zulu5bravo]

Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

Have you heard???? A "raise" isn't even proposed in the current contract... soooo how is that the issue at all? Oh, and we've heard the "increase the tax base" argument before... with the prior MAPS... Well, why if that's the case are all city workers shorthanded to begin with?

Shortsighted indeed.

[zulu5bravo]

and heaven forbid our media do any research and demand facts and comparisons, they just allow the sensationalism from the fire and police on camera, without doing any real journalism.

Because the "facts" don't support the media is why? Are you just now coming to that realization? When has the media demanded facts and comparisons with our present economic downturn? When?

[iron76hd]

If it's such a major problem, where's the large public outcry from citizens on the southside? Seems like if it were such a problem, southsiders would be lining the chambers of city hall every Tuesday complaining.

They don't know what the problem is Patrick. Just that it takes to long for officers to show up on the calls. Your survey's aren't take during the wait time a citizen is having waiting for an officer. They are taken after the officer apoligizes for 10 minutes and listens to an irate citizen vent.

People have a high regard of the police and fire depts now, but a bloody MAPS 3 opposition campaign led by the unions could result in that reputation changing, and jeopardize any future funding for the departments.

That's Blackmail Patrick! If we don't support MAPS3 at any cost. We'll jeapardize any future funding. Ohhh..Sorry we'll bow down to the Mayor and Counsel...MAPS3 at any cost.
LOL..

You can put a cop on every street corner and it's not going to stop the above from happening. Crime happens...period.

5. IMHO, police officers shouldn't be responding to non-injury accidents anyways. Complete waste of time and money.

Patrick for Police Chief!!!!! He's got it all figured out..LOL..We are no longer working accidents!! Forget Traffic Control at accident..forget Fireman or EMSA...Citizens "just shake it off"...your fine..It's a fender bender..Come on now..Won't make alot of friends in Insurance world that way... They need those police reports you know...and so do citizens to get their cars repaired...they need to get on that new rail system and quit driving..

Patrick's got the Police strategy down too..The Chief of Police and all of his Deputy Chief's, Majors, Captains, Lieutenants have been misusing Manpower. They are idiots! Patrick would fix the problem...I vote for PATRICK!!!!! What's your background in Law Enforcement and Management Patrick...Whatever it is..I'm in...

Been there, done that. Haven't yet seen a fire station falling down, and every cruiser I've been in has been well equipped and in good working order.

Are you that naive? Do you think they are going to put you in a car that's falling apart or a brand new one that's clean and ready to go? You see Patrick i've been there when they are looking for someone to send a ridealong with. They hand pick the car and officer. What do you know about the Fire or Police vehicles? or the Status of the fire and police stations?

You drive by and they are still standing and you smile..."wow that's in great shape"...If so i've got some rent houses that i want top dollar for...Will you pay? I'll slap a fresh coat of paint on them and you can drive by and take a look..

If you are a DR...think of it this way..

24 hour shift at hospital....take care of 25 gunshot victims, 50 stabbing victims, 80 heart attack victims, 45 child abuse victims, 85 broken bone victims, 100 flu's, 200 unknown problems....there are supposed to be 25 doctors on staff...and a recent survey says you need 65 dr's to handle the load.

The hospital is building a new 25 million dollar break room with a courtyard to eat your lunch. They've asked for each department in the hospital to cut their budgetsby 5% and have let go numerous Dr's, nurses and other staff to build the new breakroom.

You handle the above listed shift with 5 Dr's. ..The staff has shrunk down slowly for about the last 20 years..Now you are down to 5...

Now don't whine about hiring more Dr's...just do your job...if you don't like it....QUIT!!!!...Patrick I am getting a kick out of you...That's for sure..

[iron76hd]

Confirmed? Patrick is a Doctor? Keep in mind Patrick from my last post...That officers don't have a entourage of PA's, RN's, LPN's, X-ray tech's...i could go on...on every call like a Dr.

Just maybe one more Gray Shirt or two if you're lucky.....to handle any the each call or crisis......

I should have known...It's a Dr....They can do it all.. Run the hospitals and Police Departments....Fire Departments and city services too...Their is nothing ol Patrick can't do...

Maybe I can try surgery sometime and run an ER? I know alot about it. I've watched ER, been on walk along's in the ER and seen many IV's run...Can I do that? Patrick will be my first patient...It looks easy.....

Alot of your comments make alot of sense to me now....

[iron76hd]

Thank you ZULU...

Why doesn't the Daily Oklahoman publish the "Berkshire Study"...for all to read!!!! Call the Oklahoman and demand it!!!!!!!

Here Patrick ...you first...475-3311

[zulu5bravo]

OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

You can be open to terms of solutions all day long. The council voted... city workers shortages will not be considered. The council never wanted to discuss it... Did you watch the meeting? I was there personally. Regardless, MAPS will fail, with or without city worker support. As Skip Kelly said, "Let the voters decide". The votes will dictate it all so I or anyone else trying to appease or solicit your vote is meaningless at this point.

Live on Utopia!

[zulu5bravo]

Blackmail is letting the city know that if they don't meet your demands, i.e., increasing manpower in the fire and police departments, you're going to launch an opposition effort to any other city-led for improvements and increased spending elsewhere, i.e. MAPS 3.

No, that's called Democracy.