OKC Police & Fire needs

[metro]

Okay, I decided to start a thread on these "urgent needs" expressed by a couple posters that are derailing other threads. Several members suggested to start a new thread for that topic, so here you go. Discuss the "urgent needs" of the Police and Fire Depts. I'm all for supporting them, just wondering why they are waiting until now to raise a fuss if it's been a problem for 9 years. How come they didn't boycott MAPS for Kids, or even the recent MAPS for Ford Center Improvements?

[kevinpate]

because they are bball fans?
because they knew having lots more folks flooding downtown was to their benefit when they did make a call for action?
because I don't know?
ding ding, we have a winnah!

[ThePlainsman]

OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

[metro]

and heaven forbid our media do any research and demand facts and comparisons, they just allow the sensationalism from the fire and police on camera, without doing any real journalism.

[kevinpate]

I don't know of the needs are real, perceived or simply desired.

As to the media, giving time to anyone with the call of "It's to protect you and your children" is often a close second to "It's for the children", irrespective of what It may be.


FWIW, my limited dealing with OKCS Fire and OKC Police suggests to me they are good peeps doing hard work.

[Midtowner]

Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

[smooth]

OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

I don't remember exact numbers, however, there are over 1,000 uniformed personnel in each department. Both are short staffed.

Although one of the last bond issues provided a major remodel of the police headquarters building, it needs to be replaced. It is too small and outdated.

In addition, the fire department always has an urgent need for new motorized equipment. The latest round are manufactured by Farara based in Louisiana, and are really smooth, nice air conditioning, and LED lights. The older equipment breaks down often and feel like riding on an old buckboard. Plus, they are slow and don't have enough water storage.

About 1/3 of the fire stations are in horible condition and need replacing. Most have drives that allow entry from the rear, however, many don't. Some are being replaced, however, many more are needed. Plus, the outlining areas need more stations.

If you want sources, then you are welcome to contact the public information division of each department. You can also visit a fire station and see it first hand.

[andy157]

Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

[OSUFan]

Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

So please explain what the unions will gain directly by opposing and trying to defeat MAPS? How does this help them achieve their goals? What does staff shortages have to do with MAPS 3? Maybe I'm missing something but if MAPS fails we are still at square one with the unions correct? Help me see how these are two related issues.

[LakeEffect]

Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

Andy, thanks for your response. If you look around the country, (and I really don't have the answer to this) how does OKC compare insofar as the equipment our emergency personnel are using, facilities, etc. as compared to peer cities?

Surely you can't actually expect to always have the newest and best equipment. All equipment has an expected usability time -- it's good for a few years, it's passable for a few more, then it has outlived its life. Where are we on that curve?

The city recently passed some major bond issues to benefit the Fire Department and Police Department. Some are saying those measures are inadequate. You've probably read my posts and you know when it comes to any sort of government, I've said it before -- no government worker ever thinks their situation is adequate. More and better is always available because supplying municipalities with cool equipment is the business of lots of folks... but when it comes to what the taxpayers need, newer/cooler equipment might not always be the best use of funds.

The equipment and facilities are there to help you do an adequate job, so what is not getting done and why are the present facilities, including those paid for in the 2007 bond issue not adequate? And how can opposing MAPS cure these ills? I'm open to information here, and I think this is a great place for you to be making your case. I came to know tonight in a very dramatic way that city leaders and opinion leaders do read this board. So if I'm wrong and this isn't a collective bargaining ploy, what is it? What's going on?

[Steve]

I'm not taking sides here or entering into the debate. Nor is it up to me to identify the person behind the screen name. But in this case I know Andy, and suffice it to say, he's definitely an expert when it comes to arguments being made by the fire union.

[Urban Pioneer]

I just watched the city council and it seems like bargaining to me. The firemen have been quite respectful but it was made clear at the council meeting that there is an offer on the table that they would like to see pursued. The representative suggested that he would "rather not see it go to a vote of the people." I would rather have people vote on it than it be a vote for against MAPS as MAPS has nothing to do with it other than bargaining.

[betts]

I agree with other people here in saying I am not at all against our police and fire personnel being adequately compensated for their work. Nor am I interested in them having to work unconscionably long hours (although we're fine with our doctors doing so, and they've got people's lives in their hands at least as often). I'd simply like to know how we compare with other comparable cities. Two which come to mind are Indianapolis and Salt Lake City. They're two cities of reasonably similar size that probably have similar needs. How do we compare to them? Then, I'd also like to see a computation of disposable income. People talk all the time about the fact that our salaries here are so low. That is true, but our cost of living is also very low. Once when we were discussing potential NBA ticket sales in Oklahoma City I computed average income, average housing prices, taxes, etc between OKC and Seattle. What I found was that although salaries were far higher in Seattle, when you factored in living costs, we probably had as much, if not more, disposable income as they did. So, I'm not as interested in actual salaries as I am in disposable income comparisons.

[Patrick]

So please explain what the unions will gain directly by opposing and trying to defeat MAPS? How does this help them achieve their goals? What does staff shortages have to do with MAPS 3? Maybe I'm missing something but if MAPS fails we are still at square one with the unions correct? Help me see how these are two related issues.

[Patrick]

I'm not taking sides here or entering into the debate. Nor is it up to me to identify the person behind the screen name. But in this case I know Andy, and suffice it to say, he's definitely an expert when it comes to arguments being made by the fire union.

Doesn't take rocket science to figure out it's Andy Summers with IAFF local 157. Why the need for such secrecy? His screenname obviously says who he is. Nothing secret about it. And Andy is a great guy....respect him a lot. We just differ in our opinions.

Simply put, opposing MAPS 3 does nothing to benefit the fire dept. They're simply using MAPS 3 as a leveraging tool to try to get their pay increased. I don't know too many govt jobs right now that are increasing salaries or are hiring. I work as a physician for the VA, and we're on a hiring freeze and experiencing pay cuts. So, why should the OKCFD be any different? Face it, the economy sucks, and deal with it. If anything the MAPS programs have kept our city from losing jobs by keeping major employers like Devon from leaving. It's a good investment.

[bombermwc]

AMEN Patrick - everyone has to make a sacrifice right now. If the FD and PD feel that they in some way should be exempt from that matter, then I'd love to hear their plans for raising funds for their needs. They aren't going to get a tax any higher than it is now, so might as well forget that. And if they want capital items, then they need to get some ongoing bonds started. I'm not interested in funding new trucks out of an ongoing tax. I gurantee that if that got started, we'd see funding wasted on things we don't need. Crap - just look at the Sherrif's department and how much money they waste on crap they don't need. They piss and moan on a daily basis about wanting more while they waste money on toys every chance they get.

I definitely agree that some of the fire stations need to be replaced...and more probably need to be remodeled. But I'm going to echo a previous comment. There's adequate and then there's want. What they want is the best new whatever....but they don't need that. I'll support more man power, but we also need to start weeding out that retirement crap. Why do they still have full retirement? I don't, pretty much no one else does....but that's a whole different arguement. The day paramedics, doctors, and the average joe gets retirement, then I'll feel differently.

[iron76hd]

The line has been drawn because Police, Fire, and City Services don't think they can support a MAPS3. They can't in vote for something when they truely know the state of our city services.

I invite anyone who wants to listen to a few of the interviews done with representatives from Police and Fire to google "okc issues podcast". Their are some interesting facts that have been given in the interviews.

There is also a study that was done by an independent company. A study called for and supported by counsel. The "Berkshire Study" will be made available to Mark Shannon from 1000am in the next couple of days. This is a study that states our Police Department is short at least 200 officers to address the CURRENT city. A study that states our current Gang Unit of 12 should be about 40 to combat our CURRENT gang problem. A study that all can read. During the meeting in which the representatives were presenting to the Police Chief, Mayor and Counsel, the Mayor coundn't or didn't want to listen and left early never to return.

They are not bargaining. Begging for city leaders to listen to our understaffing levels and address those before we move on MAPS3 that's it.

They didn't want to have to air out dirty laundry. They didn't want to have to explain how the Mayor and Counsel have ignored staffing levels in EVERY part of City Services. City Employee's have pride in their city and it's leaders. It's a last resort to not support something they tell our citizens is great for them, but now it's become necessary.


Mark Shannon at 1000am from 5-7 pm has at least let SOME of the facts out.

[OSUFan]

The line has been drawn because Police, Fire, and City Services don't think they can support a MAPS3. They can't in vote for something when they truely know the state of our city services.

I invite anyone who wants to listen to a few of the interviews done with representatives from Police and Fire to google "okc issues podcast". Their are some interesting facts that have been given in the interviews.

There is also a study that was done by an independent company. A study called for and supported by counsel. The "Berkshire Study" will be made available to Mark Shannon from 1000am in the next couple of days. This is a study that states our Police Department is short at least 200 officers to address the CURRENT city. A study that states our current Gang Unit of 12 should be about 40 to combat our CURRENT gang problem. A study that all can read. During the meeting in which the representatives were presenting to the Police Chief, Mayor and Counsel, the Mayor coundn't or didn't want to listen and left early never to return.

They are not bargaining. Begging for city leaders to listen to our understaffing levels and address those before we move on MAPS3 that's it.

They didn't want to have to air out dirty laundry. They didn't want to have to explain how the Mayor and Counsel have ignored staffing levels in EVERY part of City Services. City Employee's have pride in their city and it's leaders. It's a last resort to not support something they tell our citizens is great for them, but now it's become necessary.


Mark Shannon at 1000am from 5-7 pm has at least let SOME of the facts out.

Again, how does defeating maps help you get closer to your goals? What do the unions hope to gain out of maps being defeated?

[betts]

Sorry, but you should have chosen a different media source. I refuse to listen to Mark Shannon's show.

I can understand, but disagree with, people who don't support MAPS because they don't want to pay any taxes. I can understand, but disagree with, people who don't support MAPS because they don't like the projects. But, if the police and firemen's unions are going to say "We'll show you. If you don't give us what we want, we're going to see if we can defeat something you want", how can you ask us to support you? That's childish behavior, and it frightens me to think that the people who are protecting my life would stoop to childish behavior. The two are completely independent issues, so don't try to tie them together. I also don't support a union telling its members how to vote, regardless. I find that unconscionable.

Things are rarely as simple as they are presented. It seems as if the unions are refusing to consider the possibility that further development of our city might actually increase money available to support our police and firemen. A rising tide lifts all boats. I would be interested in reading a copy of the Berkshire Study, but I'll not listen to rant radio to hear it. If I agree, then I'll do my part and encourage our city council to do something about the problem. But, I will ALSO be voting yes for MAPS. We need more people, and more development in the city itself to raise property values and property taxes which can be used to improve city services. We don't need to give people reasons to move elsewhere.

[Midtowner]

Shannon doesn't really do his homework. He reads the policy statements of groups like OCPA or in this case the unions and he latches on to those conclusions as if they were his own. He doesn't strike me as a real smart guy, so his analysis isn't worth very much to me. Ron Black, on the other hand, was worth a listen. The man did his own research and his own homework. He didn't always reach the same conclusion, but at least he thought things through.

At any rate, back to the subject, it sounds like the unions are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Most academics will tell you that when they're reading a study, they'll first read the abstract (which tells you what the study is) and then skip straight to the methodology to see whether the research is worth a crap. I'll withhold judgment on the study's conclusions until I've seen the methodology. Typically, studies like this are commissioned in order to prop up a preconceived conclusion, so they're not worth a lot.. maybe this one's different, but I doubt it.

Since obviously, staffing is not going to be funded by a bond issue or a new sales tax, the only realistic solution to the unions' problems is for the tax base to increase, and with it, their funding levels. If this isn't a union ploy to get more cash, then iron, andy, tell me how opposing measures which will improve our tax base helps improve these vital services?

[neverontime]

I agree with the comment about beefing up the gang unit. It seems like every time areas like midtown or bricktown finally take off you see more speed traps and DUI sting operations. Meanwhile, in my neighborhood people are getting robbed, harassed by adolecents who break in homes go to Juvenile Detention and return the next day with a vendetta against the person who called the cops on them. Why don't we put our limited resources towards reducing hard crimes???

[brianinok]

I've yet to see one argument how defeating maps will help the police or fire departments do their jobs better. I'M WAITING!

[soonerguru]

Well that settles it for me. I was a huge fire and police union supporter, but no more. They want to punish the entire city so they can get a raise, and where I work, people are getting pay cuts and layoffs as well.

This is childish and short-sighted and over time, the public will tune them out.

Dumb, dumb politics.

Consider me anti-cops and fire unions at this point. I'm done.

[proud2Bsooner]

It sounds like police and fire are using an unrelated suject in MAPS3 to garner their own attention to me. MAPS3 has nothing to do with police and fire. If police and fire need attention there are other ways to address them. I guess they're mad because they were not included in MAPS3, and my guess is that they threatened to oppose it if they weren't included.

If police and firemen ares so overworked, why do they choose to take side jobs? I don't think its to survive. I think it's to maintain a certain lifestyle that they choose.

I know plenty of police and fire people, with little more than high school educations, that live in 3000+ square foot homes...mostly because they do things like build houses, do other construction work, or take security jobs. City pay increases will never amount to the money they make on the side to maintain the lifestyles to which I am referring.

Their jobs allow them lots of time for side jobs. I'm sure the side jobs make them feel overworked and overwhelmed sometimes. But the side jobs are still done by their choice.