New Convention Center issue

[Oil Capital]

Let's cut through the size crap. I added up every sq foot of rentable space in the entire Cox Business Services Convention Center.

Room Dimensions Sq. Ft.
Meeting Room 1 46' X 27' 1,265
Meeting Room 2 46' X 27' 1,269
Meeting Room 3 46' X 26' 1,219
Meeting Rooms 4 46' X 40' 1,855
Meeting Rooms 5 46' X 29' 1,365
Meeting Rooms 6 26' x 25' 680
Meeting Rooms 7 24' X 30' 738
Meeting Rooms 8 25' X 53' 1,349
Meeting Rooms 9 49' X 32' 1,575
Meeting Rooms 10 49' X 33' 1,631
Meeting Rooms 11 49' X 33' 1,631
Meeting Rooms 12 49' x 32' 1,575
Meeting Rooms A 48' X 65' 3,278
Meeting Room B 51' X 65' 3,508
Meeting Room C 103' X 109' 11,216
Meeting Room D 51' X 65' 3,508
Meeting Room E 48' X 65' 3,278
Meeting Rooms 14 40' X 32' 1,283
Meeting Rooms 15 40' X 32' 1,283
Meeting Rooms 16 51' X 32' 1,639
Meeting Rooms 17 51' X 33' 1,697
Meeting Rooms 18 51' X 33' 1,680
Meeting Rooms 19 51' X 33' 1,680
Meeting Rooms 20 51' X 32' 1,593
Meeting Rooms 21 29' x 22' 672
Boardroom 41' x 23' 887
Arena 32,000

Grand Total: 85,354

That puts OKC right between the Hickory Metro Convention Center (84,023) and the Lexington Convention Center (86,494). The option before the OKC voters on the convention center is to compete for conventions, or not to compete.

Way to "cut through the size crap". ;-) Ummm, minor detail but, you left out the Exhibit Halls, which add another 100,000 square feet.

[Kerry]

Way to "cut through the size crap". ;-) Ummm, minor detail but, you left out the Exhibit Halls, which add another 100,000 square feet.

Crap! Your right. Good catch. Here are the details.

Exhibit Hall Dimensions Sq. Ft.
A 62' X 64' 4,032
B 53' X 64' 3,456
C 52' X 64' 3,328
D 53' X 64' 3,456
E 62' X 64' 4,032
1 125' X 199' 25,074
2 159' X 199' 31,400
3 125' X 199' 25,074
Exhibit Hall SubTotal 99,852
Other Space Alreedy Defined Subtotal 85,354

New (and final) grand total: 185,206 sq feet


Now I have to question the web site listing the size of each convention center. Did they only count meeting space for all convention centers or did they include exhibit space as well. Assuming they only got OKC wrong we now fall between the American Bank Center Convention Center in Corpus Christi (182,758) and the Prime F Osborne in Jacksonville, FL (187,480). Still 300,000 sq feet short of being competitive.

[HOT ROD]

That is a very interesting catch indeed.

It would be nice if these web sites could be consistent, but still 185K is still too small for OKC to compete with peers in Denver, Indy, and Nashville. ... I think we are forced to do it (if you otherwise dont want to) just for the sake of OKC catching up to it's peer cities.

As for the Fairgrounds issue, again - I support MAPS 3 and encourage everyone to do the same. But I just find it rather contentious that this seemingly white elephant can't really do anything on its own.

And yes, I am no longer a full-time OKC resident; however I think the monorail should have been saved or retrofitted or rebuilt because it was unique and could/should have been/remained a draw for the fair (and could have been used other times, maybe even expanded to downtown OKC....).

I think MAPS would/could have been appropriate for that. Also, why was the replacement a one direction kiddie tram? why not build something much better that circles the entire fair park (with multiple stops). .....

I think if the fairgrounds improvements/upgrades really made it a destination - rather than just focusing on the horse-barn crowd; then probably it would find more support. Like I said, it gets at least two funding sources (fees/rental and Hotel-Motel %). That isn't peanuts and should make it sustainable since it gets used more than just 2 weeks in a year.

But I digress, Patrick. We still agree on almost everything. lol

[Larry OKC]

... however I think the monorail should have been saved or retrofitted or rebuilt because it was unique and could/should have been/remained a draw for the fair (and could have been used other times, maybe even expanded to downtown OKC....).

I think MAPS would/could have been appropriate for that. ...

I agree, and as indicated in my prior post, it seems it was too expensive to maintain. Haven’t run across the article yet, but seem to recall the monorail was in the way of some of the expansion and was the final blow to it. As far a MAPS funding it, an article posted by Doug (Pre-MAPS vote) said that there was quite a bit of latitude with the Transportation element. Although I remember a downtown streetcar emphasis, the ballot said the could be looking at that or a monorail (which could have included a tie in with the fairgrounds on out to the Meridian hotel corridor) etc. But probably cost prohibitive and would have required federal funding (which we didn’t get), so we went with the rubber tired Trolleys instead.

Under the original 1993 MAPS proposal, the Transportation element was to cost $16M ($3M from OKC, balance from the Feds). Under MAPS 3, the Downtown Streetcar element is 8.125 times as much ($130M)

Las Vegas’s monorail was largely privately built/funded and its 4 mile length cost $88M/mile ($352M), opened in 2004. They had plans to expand it to Downtown Vegas ($400M for 2.3 miles) but federal funding fell through (where have we heard that before) and now planned expansion is to the airport (private funding again, the extension would be another 4 miles). The Vegas one is nice, runs ontime and is reasonable in price. Can pay per stop or get a 24 or 48 hour pass. It’s drawbacks are that it runs behind the properties on the Strip and there is a good long walk to get from the Monorail stop and the Strip (plus any return trips to the Monorail, mutilplied by any further stops). The advantage for me was one of the stops was the Hilton and instead of it being in front of the hotel, and having to walk a good distance thru the Casino, it dropped off right at the Star Trek: The Experience attraction.

Not a criticism at all, just something to take into consideration when designing any sort of fixed path system (is it where you are at and does it go where you want to go).

Handy comparison of various monorial’s cost is here:
How much does Monorail cost?

[Oil Capital]

Las Vegas’s monorail was largely privately built/funded and its 4 mile length cost $88M/mile ($352M), opened in 2004. They had plans to expand it to Downtown Vegas ($400M for 2.3 miles) but federal funding fell through (where have we heard that before) and now planned expansion is to the airport (private funding again, the extension would be another 4 miles). The Vegas one is nice, runs ontime and is reasonable in price. Can pay per stop or get a 24 or 48 hour pass. It’s drawbacks are that it runs behind the properties on the Strip and there is a good long walk to get from the Monorail stop and the Strip (plus any return trips to the Monorail, mutilplied by any further stops). The advantage for me was one of the stops was the Hilton and instead of it being in front of the hotel, and having to walk a good distance thru the Casino, it dropped off right at the Star Trek: The Experience attraction.

Handy comparison of various monorial’s cost is here:
How much does Monorail cost?

You cannot "pay per stop". The base fare for the Vegas Monorail is $5. Yes, that's $5.00 for a one-way ticket, even if you travel only to the next stop. Yes, they do also have an all-day ticket for $13. But, as Larry noted the thing is so out-of-the-way from everything, I don't imagine many people buy full day tickets. That thing is a complete waste.

[Kerry]

The trolley system needs to run at street level. We already have problem with people using the conncourse. We need to put people at street level. What would be nice is if the trolley had hop-on capability. That way you catch the trolley between stops just by waving your hand to the driver.

[Larry OKC]

You cannot "pay per stop". The base fare for the Vegas Monorail is $5. Yes, that's $5.00 for a one-way ticket, even if you travel only to the next stop. Yes, they do also have an all-day ticket for $13. But, as Larry noted the thing is so out-of-the-way from everything, I don't imagine many people buy full day tickets. That thing is a complete waste.

Thats what I meant, sorry if it wasn't clear. You can get the 24 pass or pay $5 every time you get on.

[jbrown84]

What is sad are all of the cities a lot smaller than OKC that have convention centers with 3 or 4 times as much space.

These are particularly embarassing:

Birmingham-Jefferson Convention Complex AL - Birmingham 485,216
Mobile Convention Center AL - Mobile 386,154
Spokane Convention Center WA - Spokane 356,870
Hot Springs Convention Center AR - Hot Springs (not Little Rock) 314,175
Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center KS - Wichita 256,482
Shreveport Convention Center LA - Shreveport 245,438
Von Braun Center AL - Huntsville 201,804
Duluth Entertainment Convention Center MN - Duluth 169,343
Amarillo Civic Center TX - Amarillo 113,577
Lubbock Memorial Civic Center TX - Lubbock 95,338


The Cox is a joke. We gotta do better.

[Larry OKC]

These are particularly embarassing:

Birmingham-Jefferson Convention Complex AL - Birmingham 485,216
Mobile Convention Center AL - Mobile 386,154
Spokane Convention Center WA - Spokane 356,870
Hot Springs Convention Center AR - Hot Springs (not Little Rock) 314,175
Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center KS - Wichita 256,482
Shreveport Convention Center LA - Shreveport 245,438
Von Braun Center AL - Huntsville 201,804
Duluth Entertainment Convention Center MN - Duluth 169,343
Amarillo Civic Center TX - Amarillo 113,577
Lubbock Memorial Civic Center TX - Lubbock 95,338


The Cox is a joke. We gotta do better.

Agree completely, question is with the new convention center, will we be?

As pointed out earlier by someone else, hard to tell what the numbers for other convention centers include (is it the total building or just sellable space?)

From the Chambers Convention Study, this is what we have with the Cox, what is proposed with the Phase 1 (MAPS 3) and some future expansion.

Total Sellable Space:
(Cox) 153,600 sf
(Phase 1) 285,000 sf
(Phase 2) 425,000 sf

Total Building Space
(Cox) 1,000,000 sf (again, horribly skewed by the arena)
(Phase 1) 570,000 sf
(Phase 2) 850,000 sf

When comparing against other centers, have to remember, this is the size of their CURRENT ones, not ones that will be around 6 to 10 years from now (Chamber's/Mayor's guesstimate), much less the Phase 2 numbers which would probably be an additional 10 years or so.

[gen70]

You guys are sooo serious,,!!! That's good..!!

[gen70]

You guys are sooo serious,,!!! That's good..!!

I remember when my fathers company (Hunzicker Bros.) left bricktown.... it was in baaad shape. I am so proud that OKC is in this overhaul. I mean, It's great..I'am over-whelmed that bricktown and the OKC downtown area is liveable. If I am ever able to do so, I would live in "Downtown" OKC.