New Convention Center issue

[metro]

It appears most opposers are opposed to the new convention center idea, even though ours will be 50 years old when/if MAPS 3 passes and completes. For those of you who keep touting the "remodel" a few years ago, that was only to the front facade and a few other things. The arena and the southern half of the exhibit space is stuck in 1970's and is pathetic. Heck, even the remodeled part doesn't stand up to anything almost every decent size city offers. One needs to realize even if you don't use the building, we still generate tens if not hundreds of millions in revenue from our convention center, it is used for local graduations and other ceremonies, as well as large private events. For those of you who say it's not busy all the time, that's because we don't have the quality of amentites that most modern groups demand these days, not to mention the lack of a convention hotel or enough hotel rooms downtown. We can't attract larger groups and more groups if we don't offer comparable amenities.

Nashville is going through the same thing debate right now and they are in a far better position than OKC,

Debate Over Metro's Convention Center Heats Up - NewsChannel 5.com - Nashville, Tennessee -

[LakeEffect]

I don't think we should ever point to a structure's age as simply the reason for change. Let's talk usefulness and spaciousness.

[Midtowner]

Metro, the convention center has had several meaningful renovations in those 50 years. Don't pretend we're really talking about a 50-year-old facility here. That's just not honest.

[metro]

Mid, can you HONESTLY say that the convention center is up to snuff with other convention centers in other metros? Have you seen some of the exhibit halls? Some of them haven't been touched. I don't know if you traveled to any conventions elsewhere during law school, but ours sure doesn't come close to cutting it, no matter how many renovations it's supposively had. I sure can't tell where parts of the Cox have EVER been renovated.

[khook]

The "Myriad" still survives... go to many of the exhibit halls and you will still see the original Myriad still in place.... the remodels that have occurred have been Half _ss. New Makeup was put on on one side... with some electronic new gadgets added in place to try to get it up to beauty queen standards. But alas she doesn't even get into the running. Or Miss Congeniality.

[Dustin]

I was inside the cox convention center just recently for a yard dogs game and it was quite depressing to look at. I think a new convention center is long overdue..

[OKCisOK4me]

I think a good word is aesthetics. Our current convention center does have a few ugly arse POS rooms, including the arena inside of it. It still looks like it did when I was a kid in 1982 and saw the Sesame Street Show there!

[soonerguru]

The arena portion of the center is indeed depressing. I noted that at the Flaming Lips show on New Year's Eve.

[DelCamino]

Metro, the convention center has had several meaningful renovations in those 50 years. Don't pretend we're really talking about a 50-year-old facility here. That's just not honest.

The only renovation the current convention center has seen since opening in the early 1970's, was the MAPS renovation to the north side of the structure 30 years later. The storage areas on the east, nothing but cosmetics and new utility equipment, as needed. Same for the exhibit space on the west side. Nothing to speak of in the arena itself.

Save for the newer north-side of the building, it's already an almost 40-years old structure, and by the time a new CC would be constructed, if the vote passes, the old lady will be coming up on her golden birthday celebration.

[Midtowner]

Mid, can you HONESTLY say that the convention center is up to snuff with other convention centers in other metros? Have you seen some of the exhibit halls? Some of them haven't been touched. I don't know if you traveled to any conventions elsewhere during law school, but ours sure doesn't come close to cutting it, no matter how many renovations it's supposively had. I sure can't tell where parts of the Cox have EVER been renovated.

I never said how it compared with other places. Just that comparing it with a 50-year-old facility is disingenuous.

[blangtang]

Call me dense, but what is this "new" issue with the convention center?

[betts]

The current convention center is certainly not anything to be proud of. It's serviceable at best, and looks terribly out of date, at that. It's hard to get excited about spending money on a convention center, but there is certainly some return, and I think it's difficult to figure out precisely how much. Regardless, I spend more buying coffee every month than MAPS will cost me, by a long shot, so I'm just going to trust the city on this one. If nothing else, it will renew an area of blight, be it the cotton gin or area adjacent to the park, and I'm sure it will provide far more benefit than that, even if it's not a financial windfall.

[Doug Loudenback]

Earnest sincere discussion about the convention center isn't new at all, even if it has not been discussed in the Oklahoman (as far as I recall).

But, it was reported and seriously discussed in the Gazette. Here's what I wrote in my Core To Shore article when discussing various issues, the convention center being one ...

2. Do we really need a new convention center? Other than those who favor a total redirection in favor of light rail, a consensus of those commenting on the topic gives a new convention center the green light, even among those who have other criticisms of the overall proposal. In this group, see Dennis Wells' opinion that the Bricktown canal should be extended to the proposed convention center location which reads like tacit approval, and Bert Belanger expressly says, "I am okay with the MAPs 3 Convention Center Idea just South of the Ford Center."

However, this Gazette article by Scott Cooper raised the possibility that, in fact, the idea of a sparkling new and larger convention center may be overrated.

There is one person who would like to inform the Oklahoma City Council and residents that a new convention center may not be the answer: Heywood Sanders, a researcher with the University of Texas at San Antonio. He has studied the move by cities to construct mega-convention centers since the 1980s and would differ from the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber's consultant conclusion.

"The reality is, there has been a huge increase in the amount of supply (convention space) over the last 10 to 15 years," Sanders said. "Does that mean you get any more business? And the answer in general is 'no'." Since the late 1990s, convention-generated business has been on a downward slide, according to Sanders' research. Yet, during that same time, the number of cities and amount of convention center floor space skyrocketed, along with an increase in nearby hotel rooms. At least 53 cities either built new or expanded existing convention centers since 2000. Between 1986 and 2006, the number of convention centers across the country increased from 193 to 322. But since 1996, the number of convention attendees dropped. Sanders said the current rate of attendance is at 1993 levels.

"One of the things we know is the demand has not grown in the period since 2003," when the country started to come out of the recession caused by the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, he said. "Most (cities) seem to be doing what they did before. It does suggest that as far as going forward, what we are seeing is not just a temporary downturn, particularly on the convention side, but a ratcheting down that may not ratchet back up."

The article presents Greater Oklahoma City Chamber CEO Roy Williams' counterpoint to Heywood Sanders' observations, and, all in all, I found the article to be one of the better give-and-take discussions of MAPS III that I've read.

The Gazette article was published July 22, 2009.

It is unlikely that an article presenting a serious pro/con discussion on the value of a new convention center will appear in the Oklahoman, in my estimation. Maybe I'll be proven wrong ... but ...

Who is the present Chairman of the Board of the Chamber (I generally like the Chamber and think it has done a lot of good for the city, just so that you'll know)? David Thompson. Who is heading up the Chamber's MAPS 3 campaign? David Thompson. See this video and Oklahoman article. Who is president of the OPUBCO Communications Group? David Thompson.

Under these circumstances, what rational and sans-blinders-thinking-person should expect the Oklahoman to be offering articles which may be seen as critical, even seriously questioning, the value of MAPS 3 during its campaign -- the Oklahoman? David Thompson? In this instance, are the 2 names not synonyms?

The point is that, for any news-source objective analysis of MAPS 3, it will almost certainly have to come from a source other than the Oklahoman. When I have occasion to read an Oklahoman article which presents information like the above Gazette article did back in July on the convention center matter, I'll be very pleased to admit the error of my ways.

Please don't misunderstand ... I'll most probably be voting FOR MAPS 3. More, I'm inclined to favor the construction of a new convention center (even if I'd prefer it to be built in the Oil Coop area south of lower Bricktown). But I'll not be making my personal decision through rose colored glasses. It may well be that I'll chose to vote favorably in spite of those who might have me wear them.

[SoonerDave]

This is the one thing that's so backwards to me - the Convention Center is, in my mind, the easiest sell of all, but apparently polls out the worst. Go figure....

[Kerry]

For those interested in seeing how the Cox Convention Center stacks up to other cities click here: US Convention Center Directory | Cvent

Cox is way way way down the list.

[scootinger]

For those interested in seeing how the Cox Convention Center stacks up to other cities click here: US Convention Center Directory | Cvent

Cox is way way way down the list.

Because "Oklahoma" begins with an "O" and not an "A", "B", or "C"?

[oneforone]

My opinion really does not count because I cannot vote. I live in Midwest City.

Anyway... I have no real objections to the actual projects. My obejction is the timing. The Oklahoma Economy could go in the crapper overnight if the government decides to scale back operations at Tinker (chances are about as likely as Tornado in early May) or one of the other major employers like INTEGRIS, Chesapeake, Devon or announces layoffs or goes belly up.

Not to mention what is going to happen if cost skyrocket. Are we going to get stiffed again like we did on the canal and the Ford Center. Everyone expected some kind of grand project with both projects. When they were finally completed most people asked the question "This is it? It's nice and everything but... it's not what I expected. The Ford Center had at least a dozen mistakes.

My main point to the city leaders is, Don't promise a Bentley if all you intend to deliever is a Chevy Impala. Sure the Impala is a nice car but... It is not a Bentley. If MAPS 3 passes, they should do one project at a time, finish it and move on to the next. Don't blow the money on three projects at once in three diffrent parts of the city.

[Kerry]

Because "Oklahoma" begins with an "O" and not an "A", "B", or "C"?

No, it is because the facilities are ranked by size. There is one part of the site that lists all convention centers alphabetically and the Cox Convention Center starts with a 'C'.

One of the nice things about the site I linked is that it has photos of many of the convention centers. Some are fine hotel quality with stunning architecture and not the brutalism style the Cox Center is done in.

If people don't want a new convention center that is cool. They just don't need to pretend the Cox Center is something it isn't. It is nearly a 50 year old building in an architectural style that should have resulted in architects being burned at the stake and it can't compete with peer facilities for size and functionality.

[metro]

My opinion really does not count because I cannot vote. I live in Midwest City.

Anyway... I have no real objections to the actual projects. My obejction is the timing. The Oklahoma Economy could go in the crapper overnight if the government decides to scale back operations at Tinker (chances are about as likely as Tornado in early May) or one of the other major employers like INTEGRIS, Chesapeake, Devon or announces layoffs or goes belly up.

Not to mention what is going to happen if cost skyrocket. Are we going to get stiffed again like we did on the canal and the Ford Center. Everyone expected some kind of grand project with both projects. When they were finally completed most people asked the question "This is it? It's nice and everything but... it's not what I expected. The Ford Center had at least a dozen mistakes.

My main point to the city leaders is, Don't promise a Bentley if all you intend to deliever is a Chevy Impala. Sure the Impala is a nice car but... It is not a Bentley. If MAPS 3 passes, they should do one project at a time, finish it and move on to the next. Don't blow the money on three projects at once in three diffrent parts of the city.

That's how MAPS operates, one or two projects at a time as funding comes in, they don't break ground on all 7 or 8 at once.

[BDP]

The reality is that to vote against a new convention center at this point in time is to vote against the city being in the large convention business at all in a couple of decades. Now, maybe it is the position of some people who oppose the convention center that we should just not be in that industry, but arguing that the Cox Convention center will be even remotely competitive in 20 years is just not valid. It's not that competitive now and many markets, even some smaller than ours, have larger and nicer facilities.

It may not always make sense on a direct income analysis, but there is no question that removing traffic from our larger conventions will have a noticeable effect on our city's hospitality and transportation service, as well as have an affect on the flow of "new" money from outside the market, which has a greater positive economic impact than when it's just money that was already in the economy being reallocated by taxes.

[metro]

Well said BDP. I hope people really get that, the power of "new" money, that's how any economy expands.

[Kerry]

Well said BDP. I hope people really get that, the power of "new" money, that's how any economy expands.

Let look at it this way. Is it better to send local decision makers to other cities or to bring decision makers from other cities to OKC? Do you want Larry Nichols traveling to Houston for energy related conventions every year, or would you prefer the CEOs of Houston based companies coming to OKC? The decision is really no harder than that.

[OKCSC]

Does anyone know what will happen to Cox? I am assuming it will be torn down, but are there any plans to redevelop the land or sell it to the private sector (that is assuming the city owns it, which I have no idea about)?

[megax11]

I think we need a new convention center due in part to Oklahoma City always being in the past.

How are we ever supposed to grow if we care about space?

Half of OKC's space is in the slums. most of 44th and north of it from western to I-35 is downright shameful. Filled with empty ponds, a pet food factory, run down streets, and houses that look slummy.

I hope Maps passes so all of that can be turned into a nice park with a convention center as it shows how far we're moving up, instead of staying behind because people in rocking chairs are content with living out the rest of their lives with the current state this city is in.

I hate thinking that people are afraid to help grow this city, at the expense of a penny.

I too hope to see that **** hole of a building gone, in favor of something new. We need new, not the past.

[gmwise]

Because "Oklahoma" begins with an "O" and not an "A", "B", or "C"?

torpedoes to midships....rofl!!