OKC in the NYTimes

[feconi]

I'm sure you have lots of hard data to back this up.

Do you know what "anecdotal" means? It was my opinion, formulated from my own experience.

Moreover, if you're going to get on my case about it, why didn't you set the precedent of providing "hard data" to back your argument when you said:

Current demographic trends are undeniable in this regard.

In regards to the rest of your hyperbolic tirade, read my post again carefully: nowhere did I say that my friends think OKC is an ideal place to live. I agree that improving the "cosmopolitan" feel of the city is important for attracting people from out of state and retaining a perhaps a larger fraction of these in-state graduates. But, is it impossible for you to accept that others don't value the same things in a city that you evidently do?

[neodeity]

We definitely have the smallest TV market in the NBA.

^^^^^^by TV market size-OKC is ranked 45th in The U.S. w/ 694,030 households and a % of the total U.S. share of 0.604% and Memphis ranks in at # 50. w/ 667,660 and a share of 0.581% and even smaller is N.O. w/633,220 households an a 0.551 % share of U.S. households!----and when it comes to population of Metro populations of NBA cities OKC is still not last! Memphis and New Orleans are still smaller! I am not trying to be anal about this, I just want people to know we are not THE smallest market, but ONE of them! --but none of the articles I've read distinguish that!

Hey, I did that research too; and you're correct.

I'd also add that OKC is a competitive TV market. Your TV stations really do work harder for their audiences. I worked at a couple of your TV stations in the 90's and the quality of your newscasts easily rival shows from markets in the teens and 20's. (The production value needed to be higher, but that was more a function of progressively cheaper ownership allowing their stations to fall behind the technological curve. I hope they have reversed this trend.) The people working off air are as talented and skilled as any I've ever encountered in 25 years as a TV Bedouin. As TV markets go, it’s pretty good. I’d return to OKC to work, but I’d rather stay put - I’ve moved around enough for one lifetime.

[BG918]

Eh, I think it's good to move around some when you're young whether you live in OKC or NYC, LA, Chicago, DC, etc. The people I know in OKC that seem the most worldly, educated, and 'cosmopolitan' lived in other places before moving here. A good friend I work with moved here from Austin where he grew up and went to college to try something different. As long as OKC has good jobs it will keep growing, hopefully in a smarter way than it has in the past.

[PennyQuilts]

Don't you still live in a big city?

Regardless, my comment was regarding the cosmopolitan aspects of cities, not necessarily their size. I wouldn't particularly want to live where you live, either.

We have a home in OKC and are in the process of moving back, full-time. Please god, by the end of the year.

Two of my kids live in Manhattan and one in Brooklyn. One has lived in Manhattan for ten years. They've all loved it but I doubt they'll stay, especially when the babies start coming. At a certain point, being able to stay up all night and go to a show or a restaurant is pretty immaterial when you start getting tired after a long day's work at around 10:00. And you can visit the museums. And you frequently start appreciating local or community efforts a bit more as you get older.

My daughter said something about a recent trip to New Zealand. I asked her if she liked Christ Church and she said it was sort of boring - "the kind of city you want to live in but not go to on vacation." She and her husband have traveled all around the world, literally - it's their thing.

[OKCMallen]

You're not being realistic, you're being pessimistic. You're also apparently not open to the possibility that we could be cosmopolitan.

If our economy grows, we continue to prosper, and become a more interesting place to live and destination for tourists, we WOULD become more cosmopolitan. Frankly, OKC is much more cosmopolitan than it was 10 years ago.

There are many smaller cities than NYC that are cosmopolitan, like Portland and Austin, for example. I see no reason we cannot aspire to those cities.

What you're saying sounds very depressing. I know you don't mean to come across that way.

But you have to look at it this way: young people are deciding whether to take a chance on OKC improving and becoming more big city, or moving elsewhere "because it will never happen here." Your statement, though you may not mean it this way, is an open invitation for a lot of people to leave.

I am a young professional. I spend almost all my time in OKC. I spend all my money here. I'm exactly the person you're talking about. And you know what- there are a zillion reasons for someone my age to leave OKC for brighter lights. If you don't hate big cities, spend 5 minutes in NYC and you're ready to leave OKC. (Not so much Dallas, but you get the idea...) However, this is home, I love it here, and I make my living here. So here I am, promoting and building our city as I can.

We aren't and never will be cosmopolitan. We will never be "relevant to the world" in a general sense. Better to deal with that, love our city, and make it as great as it can be instead of constantly having a perception of "not good enough."

We can become "more" cosmopolitan. We will never BE cosmopolitan unless something ridiculously, unreasonably unforeseeable happens. And I'm fine with that.

I wish more people were "comfortable in their own skin" in regards to a realistic view of who OKC is and where we're going. San Antonio isn't a cosmopolitan city and people LOVE it. I think that's the level we want to shoot for right now.

[OKCMallen]

That's a dangerous assumption to make. Can you predict the future? People 19 years ago said that Oklahoma City... scratch that. Let me enumerate the "never" statements I've heard over the years regarding Oklahoma City...

"Oklahoma City will never have professional sports."
"Oklahoma City will never be able to support pro sports."
"MAPS will never work. Don't buy a wooden nickel!"
"Oklahoma City will never have money like it did in the early eighties."
"Oklahoma City will never recover from the oil bust."
"The Skirvin is going to get demolished. Mark my words."
"There will never be water in that river. Who'd want to go down there anyway?"
"Tattooing will never be legal in Oklahoma. Too many conservatives."
"Casino gambling will never pass. This state's too conservative."
"The lottery doesn't stand a chance in Oklahoma. This is the bible belt."

I mean... do you see where I am going with this? These were actual remarks made by people from the 1990s... friends in my high school, relatives and conversations I've overheard.

Not saying that Oklahoma City will be world class or never will be world class. I'm just saying never say never. You cannot predict the future. That's being a realist. Did anyone in 1985 think Dubai, U.A.E. was going to have dozens of supertall futuristic skyscrapers that are all engineering marvels? Or that Phoenix would be a burgh larger than Dallas proper by the year 2000?

I think in 1985 right after the energy crisis and into the oil bust, you could predict that oil exporting nations are in a great financial position on a going-forward basis.

Also, we haven't proved we can support a pro franchise yet. I believe we will, but one season doesn't count as supporting it.

Saying OKC will be on the same level as Paris some day and saying we'll never dam a river are pretty different things.

[soonerguru]

We aren't and never will be cosmopolitan.

This is conjecture on your part. Pure and simple. You actually have no idea what will happen in the future.

And by the way, many people would consider OKC cosmopolitan. We have international visitors. We are attracting immigrants from around the world.

No, we're not Rome, but we're not Wichita and Amarillo, either.

And in many ways, OKC is more cosmopolitan than San Antonio, having spent time there on business.

[soonerguru]

Saying OKC will be on the same level as Paris some day and saying we'll never dam a river are pretty different things.

This is stupid. NO ONE is saying this. OKC does not have to be Paris or NYC to be cosmopolitan.

I notice you ignored my comments about Portland and Austin.

[kmf563]

Good Lord. Don't a lot of people on here just absolutely can not stand Chili's as a decent place to go eat and/or drink?

Actually I can not stand it. But a friend was in town and that's what she wanted for dinner. I tried to push her in another direction towards something locally owned, but she really wanted it and I obliged as a good host. I had a beer. And shared their appetizers while she ate. We sat at the bar to see the tv. They were meeting more people there and it was a convenient location for everyone to gather before heading out for a night on the town.

[OKCMallen]

This is stupid. NO ONE is saying this. OKC does not have to be Paris or NYC to be cosmopolitan.

I notice you ignored my comments about Portland and Austin.

You're stupid if you think it's stupid. More namecalling! yay!

Paris and NYC are cosmopolitan cities. Austin is NOT "relevant to the world." IO doubt Portland would be considered that either. Seattle is getting closer to cosmopolitan.

Having SOME diversity is not the same as "cosmopolitan." I'm afraid you don't understand what the word means.

[soonerguru]

How is Austin not relevant? It's globally known as a cultural and music center. It's one of America's most important music cities?

SXSW is the most important music conference in the world.

You're reaching now, and argumentative.

Whatever you define as cosmopolitan can only apply to handful of major world cities. Therefore, continued discussion on this matter with you is pointless.

[OKCMallen]

This is conjecture on your part. Pure and simple. You actually have no idea what will happen in the future.

And by the way, many people would consider OKC cosmopolitan. We have international visitors. We are attracting immigrants from around the world.

No, we're not Rome, but we're not Wichita and Amarillo, either.

And in many ways, OKC is more cosmopolitan than San Antonio, having spent time there on business.

You actually have no idea what will happen in the future. Wow. OK, let's forget all messageboard discussions regarding anything that is not past nor present. Genius.

You need to get some perspective. I'd love for you to take your opinion and say it in front of a roomful of New York Citians, Romans, Parisians. LOVE to watch their reaction to you. Get a grip.

None of that is to say we shouldn't be as badass a possible. But if you think people are going to be talking about Oklahoma City like they talk about London anytime soon...well, I just feel bad for you.

Having unreasonable and unattainable goals is not productive.

[OKCMallen]

How is Austin not relevant? It's globally known as a cultural and music center. It's one of America's most important music cities?

SXSW is the most important music conference in the world.

You're reaching now, and argumentative.

Whatever you define as cosmopolitan can only apply to handful of major world cities. Therefore, continued discussion on this matter with you is pointless.

I'm not well-versed in all the important music conferences the world over, but something tells me that Europe would like to have a word with you about the above-bolded, bold statement.

Austin is not "globally known." You can't go to a teenager in Estonia and say: hey, talk to me about Austin. SXSW is awesome and incredible, no doubt about it. But to say because it has one music conference it is an overall, generally globally relevant city is ridiculous.

Cosmopolitan *IS* supposed to only be applied to a handful of major world cities. That's the idea of what the word means. You're pretty small-minded indeed if you believe that reaching Austin status puts you on the world's stage as a relevant player.

[OKCMallen]

I'd love for you to put your money where your mouth is. I'd love a poll conducted of not only a diverse range of people from different countries all over the world, but also OKCians. I'd love to bet you $100k on the results of whether OKC IS, or is PERCEIVED as (either one), a cosmopolitan city. I'd even give OKC 20 years to grow and still sustain that bet.

I love OKC. I promote OKC. But New Delhi, we ain't. Cairo, we ain't. Berlin- no. OKC is not, and likely will never be, culturally, financially, fashionably, technologically generally relevant to the world.

Can we do a thing or two that might be relevant? Sure. If the cure for cancer were discovered at our medical technology and research campus, that would be amazing. OKC still would not be relevant to the world. That would be one spike, one amazing gift to the world discovered in OKC. But that wouldn't make our fair city generally relevant to citizens of the world.

[Platemaker]

I'd have to agree with OKCMallen.

San Antonio is probably more 'globally known' than Austin.

[soonerguru]

None of that is to say we shouldn't be as badass a possible. But if you think people are going to be talking about Oklahoma City like they talk about London anytime soon...well, I just feel bad for you.

You either have a listening or reading comprehension problem. NO ONE, least of all me, is suggesting OKC will become a NYC, London, or Paris.

Apparently, you have a very narrow definition of "cosmopolitan" that only applies to a handful of world cities. Perhaps my definition of the word is a bit more broad than yours. On that, we'll have to either consult a linguist or agree to disagree.

But please stop inferring that anyone on this message board, and particularly me, would be delusional enough to think OKC could become another Paris, Milan or Tokyo.

That is not what I meant by the word "cosmopolitan" when I took issue with your negative-sounding, self-defeating post.

Perhaps you would agree that we would like to see OKC become "more cosmopolitan" in nature, i.e., a little more worldly and a little less like, say, Wichita.

And regarding SXSW, the US is the center of the global entertainment industry, and Austin's annual festival is the biggest in the music business.

[kmf563]

And regarding SXSW, the US is the center of the global entertainment industry, and Austin's annual festival is the biggest in the music business.

False.

You guys need to define what you are calling cosmopolitan because it means very different things to many different people.

[PennyQuilts]

Urbane?

[soonerguru]

Urbane?

Absolutely. Thank you.

OKCMallen's definition of cosmopolitan doesn't allow OKC to ever be cosmopolitan. Mine does. A better term, however, would be urbane.

Words have consequences.

[CCOKC]

Back on the article; I would not ever do anything but say Hi to a player and believe me I would recognize most of them in their street clothes. Incidentally, I was in the Village(NYC not OK) a few years back with my daughter and saw Steve Nash, one of our very favorite athletes on the planet. We were 3 feet away form him as he was eating dinner with friends at an outdoor table and we did not go up to him and ask for his autograph or anything. Looking back I wish I had said something. But you know what? Nobody else was hounding him either. I guess no one recognized the then reigning MVP of the league in NYC either. Or maybe they were just polite and left him to eat his dinner in peace.

[CaptDave]

Wow...this got pretty heated for a while. I kind of like OKC being "our little secret". I moved here about 7 years ago and had every intention of leaving as soon as I found a job somewhere else. But a funny thing happened....... the place grew on me.

It is a great place to raise kids, relatively inexpensive, and has its own uniqueness. Not too bad if you ask me. And maybe here is the best part - while there are PLENTY of things to do here - if I can't do it here, I can afford to go wherever "it" is because I am not going broke buying overpriced houses or trying to feed my kids.

I am fairly well travelled, and there are several cities mentioned in this thread I have visited. All great places without question - but for what I want for a lifestyle for my kids and I, OKC is pretty darn good.

[PennyQuilts]

Back on the article; I would not ever do anything but say Hi to a player and believe me I would recognize most of them in their street clothes. Incidentally, I was in the Village(NYC not OK) a few years back with my daughter and saw Steve Nash, one of our very favorite athletes on the planet. We were 3 feet away form him as he was eating dinner with friends at an outdoor table and we did not go up to him and ask for his autograph or anything. Looking back I wish I had said something. But you know what? Nobody else was hounding him either. I guess no one recognized the then reigning MVP of the league in NYC either. Or maybe they were just polite and left him to eat his dinner in peace.

My kids live in Soho and they see celebrities from time to time. I think they would be believe it was utterly rude to interrupt people while they were eating or lame to ask for their autograph. I was up with them, once, and passed what's her name (Sex in the City while it was still on) out walking her dog. We just nodded and walked past. Truth be told, I didn't know who she was but thought the dog was cute. I lit up to see the pup and it wasn't until after we passed that they told me who she was. Looking back, I'm glad I just mentioned "What a cutie," or something about the dog as I walked past and treated her like any other person.

[mecarr]

I think it was a pretty bad article. Looking down the nose at Oklahoma City in several ways. Let HIM know what you think! Jonathan Abrams of the NYT is active on Twitter: Jonathan Abrams (Jpdabrams) on Twitter

What? How in the world was that a negative article about OKC? The only message was that OKC is still getting use to having an NBA team, which we are.

[okcpulse]

The people I know in OKC that seem the most worldly, educated, and 'cosmopolitan' lived in other places before moving here.

Really??? Perhaps you and I should get together for a beer or two. I was educated before I moved to Houston. And now I am more educated... that OKC is not as insular as people think, and that I appreciate OKC a lot more than when I left. Don't insult the native population. Ever.

[BFizzy]

Today's New York Times has an interesting story on the Thunder's Kevin Durant and his life around OKC. Surprisingly it's pretty positive... read it here.

What part of this article was remotely positive for OKC other than selling out the Ford Center 18 times?