Bricktown Casino

[HFK]

First: man oh man the phrase 'white trash' really gets on my nerves. Those people are fellow citizens, fellow taxpayers, and fellow human beings. I'd suggest that some members find a genlter way of expressing themselves, but words really aren't the problem, are they? My parents taught me that I shouldn't say "******" but, more importantly, they taught me to be color-blind. Some of the members here could stop saying 'white trash' but I'm afraid that they'd still be narrow minded bigots.

Second: a bias, based on religioius zealotry, is not nearly the only reason to dislike casino gambling (although I wouldn't lightly dismiss the concerns of those who might tend to listen to a "holy roller former state representitive"). See my previous post, and speak with anyone that lives in a community that has introduced casino gambling. There's definitely a trade-off, with the fundamental 'pro' being a gigantic influx of cash, and thus revenue for government at various levels. The "cons" are legion, but there's really no need to cite them. Unlike Deadwood, Biloxi, Atlantic City, and numerous other towns and cities, we're not in the midst of an implosion, desperate to find some way to generate revenue. Bricktown, and OKC, are doing fine. We should explore ways to continue growth, but growth can certainly continue without the sort of risks that Casino gambling brings with it.

[mranderson]

No. Oklahoma City is NOT doing fine. It is much better than it use to be, like in the 80's, however it has a LOT of problems. Bricktown, on the other hand IS doing well. It still has a lot of work ahead of it, but it is fine.

Except for eight years caused by the oil bust of the 80's, I have lived in Oklahoma City since I was five. So, I have seen a lot of these self richeous nuts try and dictate how we run our lives, and it is one reason Oklahoma City has a bad reputation. I do not "lightly" dismiss the former state representative. I STRONGLY dismiss him. He has NO RIGHT to tell me I can not walk into a casino. Or a brothal for that matter (not that I would walk into a brothal as they are too expensive). We are just now realizing how much damage that man has caused.

FYI. I TOTALLY support casino's. And if built correctly, ones in Bricktown as well. It would not even bother me if the Indian's wanted to build a high class cathouse.

The phrase "White trash?" As inappropriate is it may be, it does not bother me... Personally, I prefer the term "hick." It fits better. Oh. By the way. I bet we get a LOT of tourist dollars from the casinos. Even if I lose that bet, they will make a lot of money. The majority of out of state plates I see in casinos in this region. Guess where they are from... Yep. Oklahoma.

[fromdust]

i posted earlier that the city would not get tax revenue from the casino because it is owned by the indians. but i was thinking does their tax free status only apply to the reservations? and if it does why dont they by up more land for their reservations? does anyone know?

[swake]

If a tribe buys land for a casino then they do place in reserve and it is technically a reservation. Any land that a tribe buys and places in reserve is a "reservation", things are just done a little differently here in Oklahoma where we have a lot of Native Americans but no reservations the way most people think of them.

[mranderson]

I also doubt the city or the state, for that matter (except for the profit sharing under state law) will receive ANY revenue.

I just hope they sign a contract with Harrah's, Steve Wynn, or one of the other mega casino corporations and do it big time. To the tune of a billion dollar Las Vegas resort.

What would you call it if it was that big? How would you theme it?

[BDP]

Would they really invest a billion dollars in a regulated casino with juiced games when there's vegas rules gambling within a days drive? I just don't see that kind of gaming generating the kind of traffic and return they'd want versus that kind of competition.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

A little history as I recall it.

It started with State Legislation that took bingo, played mostly on Wednesday night for pocket change by little old gray haired ladies, out of church basements and into mammoth parlors in rundown shopping centers. The requirement was that said bingo halls must be associated with a non-profit entity such as The Church of What’s Happin’ Now, Do Gooders for Jesus etc.; government regulation at its finest.

Next, Tribes began opening gigantic, colossal bingo parlors on reservation land; followed by gambling compacts with the State that authorized pull-tab games, and today we have incredibly ugly fabric buildings alongside our interstate highways designed to separate people from their money. Many of which I suspect can ill afford to be separated from it.

During the same time period, Remington Park racetrack opened with the promise of increased revenues for schools, and that has turned into a casino of sorts which will continue to slide down another slippery slope; destination unknown.

Has all of this gambling solved any social problems?

Has it generated the much hyped commercial development?

Are our schools or highways better because of the tax money allegedly generated by these gambling enterprises?

Do these examples of government being complicit in what is still an illegal activity if carried out in your garage improve the perception that young people have of government?

Has any of this improved the quality of life for the average citizen in Oklahoma?

We are now only a short time away from implementing a State operated lottery; another enterprise that would be illegal if you ran it from your kitchen even if you gave every penny to charity.

Does anyone see any hypocrisy at work here?

Is this the high moral ground espoused by most of our political leaders.

I think that one must answer these questions before trying to decide if it is a good idea to open a gambling casino in Bricktown.

Please forgive my leap onto this soap box.

[okcpulse]

mranderson, first I'd like to say if I lived in your ward, I'd vote for you. But I live in Ward 8. At this point, the casinos still have the Class II electronic bingo machines, with the reels there only for entertainment purposes. The casinos have been approved for Class III slot machines, but must follow regulations that differ from Vegas, so each machine has to be custom-made to follow state guidelines. They will not be electronic bingo machines, however.

Keep in mind, almost every state except Nevada, New Jersey and Louisiana that allows any casinos has some sort of regulation on how slot machines can run. Even in Mississippi.

[BDP]

Please forgive my leap onto this soap box.

Stay up there for awhile. You make great points.

Personally I don't mind casinos or gambling. But the way the government, especially our government, has manipulated it and even sold it as a cure for our social problems is hypocritical and sometimes disgusting. Take the lottery for instance. I don't mind the lottery per se, but don't feed me this crap that it's going to save our schools and that only the government can be responsible number runners.

Yes, this idea that "we, the government, are going to protect you from gambling except when we get a piece of it" is ridiculous. When you add in the fact that, at this point, Oklahoma has no competitive advantage in offering a lottery or gambling, it becomes even more of a false promise.

[mranderson]

"Keep in mind, almost every state except Nevada, New Jersey and Louisiana that allows any casinos has some sort of regulation on how slot machines can run. Even in Mississippi."

Nevada gaming regulations DO regulate slot machines. They must pay out a certain percentage, and one machine can not pay out more than the other. They can less, however, there is a minimum payout percentage. This expression "it's due," or similar expressions is a myth. ALL states that have legalized gaming (technically, even if it is not legal) have regulations.

If they did not, you could have one casino that set the payout at zero or maybe one percent, and another who set it at, say 90%. They could reset the slots to payout more for one person and not as much for another.

My suggestion is to watch programs on the gaming industry, especially in Las Vegas. These programs can be found on "The Travel Channel," and the other Discover channels. They will give you accurate information on gaming laws and many other areas.

[Patrick]

I personally don't want a casino in Bricktown. Guys, we need to get away from large, sprawling entertainment complexes, and focus on developing a real downtown retail and residential district. When I think of an old town district, I don't think of large 16 screen movie theaters, big box stores like Bass Pro, etc. Let's develop the casino district along the river and throw in a few riverboat style casinos while we're at it.

[BDP]

The difference is that in Vegas most of the regulations are in place to protect the player. Many of our regulatory policies end up screwing the player, especially when compared to Vegas style gaming.

[mranderson]

The difference is that in Vegas most of the regulations are in place to protect the player. Many of our regulatory policies end up screwing the player, especially when compared to Vegas style gaming.

I am not convinced the information you have is accurate. The regulations protect everyone.

I do not like to respond this way, however, I feel it is best. What documentation do you have to show the Oklahoma regulations protect the establishment and not the player?

My opinion is this may be a very common problem with some areas. Pre-conseived ideas. Most are way off.

[fromdust]

Stay up there for awhile. You make great points.

Personally I don't mind casinos or gambling. But the way the government, especially our government, has manipulated it and even sold it as a cure for our social problems is hypocritical and sometimes disgusting. Take the lottery for instance. I don't mind the lottery per se, but don't feed me this crap that it's going to save our schools and that only the government can be responsible number runners.

Yes, this idea that "we, the government, are going to protect you from gambling except when we get a piece of it" is ridiculous. When you add in the fact that, at this point, Oklahoma has no competitive advantage in offering a lottery or gambling, it becomes even more of a false promise.

thats what happened in texas. they said the lottery was for the shools. if you listen to the news in dallas one of the school districts went broke. they actually shut down all the schools in that district. now they are trying to find a place to put all those kids. where was the money from the lottery then.

[BDP]

What documentation do you have to show the Oklahoma regulations protect the establishment and not the player?

I do not have a document for you, but, for one example, I know a player must pay $.50 a hand to play black jack, that screws the player, especially compared to Vegas. That's not a preconceived notion, that's just basic math.

[mranderson]

I do not have a document for you, but, for one example, I know a player must pay $.50 a hand to play black jack, that screws the player, especially compared to Vegas. That's not a preconceived notion, that's just basic math.

...And in which casino were you accessed this charge?

[BDP]

And in which casino were you accessed this charge?

I have a friend who went to Thunderbird twice in the last two weeks and was charged $.50 a hand.

Here is a document exmapling the Uniform Techincal Standards and Procedures for Electronic Gaming Under the Tribal-Oklahoma State Compact:

http://www.okindiangaming.org/PDFs/O...%20Compact.pdf

In it, it states that each game requires a fee to play. So apprently it applies to more than just blackjack, as well.

[chrisok]

...And in which casino were you accessed this charge?

I've posted about this somewhere before, so forgive me.

Every casino in OKlahoma charges a "commission" to play card games. In poker, it's no big deal. Most anywhere in the country, when you enter a game there is always a "buy in" or "commission". In blackjack and other non-poker card games, this is not common practice. Basically, it has to do with fact that casinos cannot offer "banked" card games, which means they cannot keep the winnings (or our losses really). Since they don't keep their winnings, the "commission" is what the casinos keep instead. The money the casino wins is usually returned via a tournament of some sort.

After all is said and done, it is the player the that gets screwed with the commisision. Especially when most people are going to be $5 a hand players. That is, of course, if you don't enter the tournaments and make some money from those.

This whole deal is really not the fault of the casinos. (Also, let me state for the record that I am not an apologist for these casinos. I think the casinos here are brutal when it comes to payout rates, comps, etc.) The problem is with the agreement that was approved last November. Instead of approving legitimate, Class III gaming, we got a hybrid of Class II and Class III gaming, with many, many restrictions. Which means, in a nutshell, that our casinos are only partly as hokey as they used to be. The tribes would have much rather been able to offer full blown Class III gaming, because even though they are guaranteed to make money on every hand of whatever card game they offer, they could make MUCH more if they were just allowed to keep their actual winnings. Not to mention, they could compete better with Shrevport for the Texas and Arkansas crowd, as well not hearing every player constantly gripe about the commission. Pesronally, I would just like to see all bingo based games go away.

.

[BDP]

Thanks Chris. So, I think we can now agree that, while Vegas regulations are in place to protect the player, ours effectively screw the player especially when compared to Vegas style gambling. So, since our casinos can not compete in product or revenue generation, even with neighboring states, it's pretty safe to say that neither Harrah's, Steve Wynn, nor anybody else is going to be investing anywhere close to a billion dollars in Oklahoma.

However, there is nothing stopping us from having real gaming, except, of course, our state legislature.

[chrisok]

I think it's pretty safe to say that the bigtime casino corporations aren't looking here anytime soon.

The legislature is only part of what is stopping us from having "non dorky" gaming. The Oklahoma voter has to be convinced. That's even more important than the legislature. In order for us to be able to have it, the Oklahoma Constitution has to be amended. That takes a vote. To get to vote on it, the legislature can approve it, or it can be done by an initiative petition. You may remember we did have a vote on it several years ago through a petition. It failed miserably, mainly because ithe DeBartolo Corporation withdrew their financial support to promote it. (and it was not a well thought out plan.)

It's also possible to get it another way. If Federal regulations were changed, then the Indian tribes could do whatever the Feds say they can. Currently, federal regualtions state that Indian Tribes are allowed the offer whatever class of gaming the state allows, unless a specific compact is entered into. Horse racing is Class II, so the tribes could operate high stakes bingo which is Class II. These new compacts that are being agreed upon spells out what is and isn't allowed.....Plus now the state gets a cut. I don't remember how long these compacts are in effect, but once they expire it will be interesting to see how much further gaming is expanded. My guess is that we weill probably have more "Vegas-like" gaming the next time around.

[djryanla]

The more I think about it, the worse this idea seems to me.

Put it on the river close to Bricktown, fine. Let them pop up all over Highway 9, fine. Put one in Bricktown, no way.

The only way I'd support a casino in Bricktown is if it was a real casino. Give me a Harrah's. Do NOT give me another Indian casino. I'm sorry, but I've never enjoyed my time at any Indian casino I've gone to in Oklahoma. Thunderbird, eh. Lucky Star, horrible. That big marshmallow cloud casino north of the Red River on I-35, kill me now.

And now that they've added some card games (which I originally liked the idea of -- and it's a side-step in the right direction), the slot machines are so tight, it's ridiculous.

I'm all for boosting entertainment in Bricktown. I just think this idea is misguided.

[Patrick]

"Tribal casino plan is a gamble, merchants say


By Bryan Dean and Wendy Moses
The Oklahoman

Bricktown merchants and city officials aren't ready to bet their futures on a Bricktown tribal casino, despite the increased business such a venture could generate.
Photo by Paul Hellstern. Game tables and props provided by Amini's Galleria Although intrigued by potential profits from a casino, many were concerned it wouldn't fit with other Bricktown businesses.

"I think it would hurt our image," said Daren Woods, general manager of Club Rane. "I would probably not allow most of the people who go to the casino into the club."

Officials with the Shawnee Tribe, based in Miami, OK, have approached city officials about building a casino in downtown or Bricktown, but say they are just in an exploratory phase and years away from such a venture.

The tribe has not bought land in Oklahoma City or discussed its intentions with the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Several city officials have expressed opposition to the idea, saying a casino could cut into profits for other businesses.

"Casinos generally make their money attracting people by giving away things that other people are charging for -- food, lodging, entertainment," Ward 4 Councilman Pete White said.

"I just don't see how it's going to be a plus for us."

Some merchants disagree.

Potential effects hard to gauge
Tommy Morris, managing partner of the Bricktown Sonic, said he has seen the benefits of casinos. In Mississippi and Louisiana, where Morris has lived, restaurant business went up 120 percent when Las Vegas-style casinos opened nearby, he said.

"I would be all for having a casino across the street," Morris said.

Bricktown has about 150 businesses and its economic impact is estimated at more than $100 million a year, Bricktown Association Director Frank Sims said.

Bricktown visitation has gone from about 3.8 million in 1997 to more than 8 million in 2004, Sims said.

He estimates about 10 million people will visit Bricktown this year.

Sims said it would be difficult to estimate how a casino might change those numbers.

Mayor Mick Cornett opposes the idea of a casino but may be unable to stop it.

If the tribe buys property in Bricktown, legislation that created the tribe in 2000 could force federal officials to put the land in trust.

Such a move would allow the tribe to bypass strict zoning and architectural requirements in the Bricktown district.

That prospect worries members of the Bricktown Urban Design Committee, who normally review proposed buildings before permits are granted.

"I don't love the idea," committee member John Yoeckel said. "We wouldn't have any control over what it looked like at all. That would certainly concern me given the effort that's gone into making Bricktown what it is today."

Meeting the Bricktown vision
Many Bricktown merchants said the tribe should voluntarily go through the normal Bricktown review process even if it is not legally required.

Greg Pitcher, chairman of the Shawnee Tribe's economic development corporation, said tribal officials have no intention of ignoring community concerns.

They met with city officials for that reason.

"We're sorry if we didn't convey that properly to the mayor," Pitcher said.

Some in Bricktown oppose a casino regardless of how it looks or whether it goes through a normal design review process.

Jim Rickards, general manager of the Courtyard by Marriott at 2 W Reno Ave., said a casino would go against the vision Bricktown is trying to create.

The area draws families during the day and young adults at night, and Rickards said he doubts a casino would fit in with that atmosphere.

Rickards said the kind of crowd a casino would draw would likely scare away families with young children.

"It is a vibrant, energy-filled family environment on the weekend, and you may push a lot of that business away," he said.

"What Bricktown needs right now is retail, not something like that. The city is going in a great direction, and I don't know if that's a step we want to take."

The prospect of a casino-hotel also worries Rickards. He said such a development would devalue downtown hotel space by creating a surplus of rooms.

Bourbon Street Cafe Manager Renee Davis understands that some city officials might be against the idea of legalized gambling.

But she is confident that if the Shawnee Tribe decides to build a casino in Bricktown, it will be a nice one. And she hopes they will work with city officials and other Bricktown merchants.

"It would be silly not to do that," Davis said.

"We're all neighbors." "

[Patrick]

I'm afraid this would simply be another small, smoke-filled casino like Lucky Star.

Oh well, maybe it will fit into Lower Bricktown. It isn't like anything in Lower BRicktown really fits into the original Bricktown concept anyways.

[BDP]

Oh well, maybe it will fit into Lower Bricktown. It isn't like anything in Lower BRicktown really fits into the original Bricktown concept anyways.

This is what is funny about this debate. Not only have we allowed developments in Lower Bricktown that do not fit into the Bricktown aesthetic, but we publicly financed it in Bass Pro. Despite Bass Pro's target demographic of outdoor enthusiasts who obviously would rather be outside of a city than in the middle of it and the fact that it would need to eat up much of publicly enhanced property for trailer, boat, and off road vehicle parking, it was supported based on one thing: traffic. It would bring people and it has indeed done that. But it still looks out of place next to bricktown, it's parking lot is bigger than it's store, and I am not sure how many BP shoppers are dancing the night away at Club Rane.

I'll admit Oklahoma casino's are weak and non-competitive. I really have no intention of going to one. I am also not a Bass Pro shopper, as I don't have many outdoor needs and, when I do, there are several more competitive locally owned options. However, I do frequent Bricktown a lot and from how I see it 1) a casino makes much more sense from an urban entertainment district standpoint than a Bass Pro and 2) if you can justify a Bass Pro based solely on traffic generation, then a casino makes just as much sense, if not more.

So while I have no real interest in a casino or a Bass Pro, it seems odd, and even comical, that city leaders and some businesses owners would feel that a Bass Pro is such a greater fit for Bricktown than a casino that they would public finance BP and vehemently oppose the casino.

[mranderson]

This is about 45 degrees off topic, but important to the issue.

To the people who say the new casino's will be dark, dingy, choke and cough rooms. Have you seen the architects renderings of the casino inside Remington? It looks like it would fit in Las Vegas. Humm. Maybe they will stop a stereotype.

I think you might just be surprised with the quality of casino in Bricktown.