Campbell Park (dead)

[Pete]

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I found this slide on the okc.gov website, promoting new downtown developments.

I have never seen anything on this before, but maybe I just somehow missed it:

[Luke]

A quarter million dollars?

*sigh*

Maybe the next development.

Better yet, how bout some MAPS for Section 8 Downtown?

I may quit my job for that gig.

[Pete]

Another Milwaukee comparison...

I looked at condos while I was there -- places very similar to what is now being constructed in and around our downtown.

And they were just about the same price as comparable units in OKC, even though comparable single-family homes in Milwaukee are more than twice as expensive.

[Steve]

OK, back story here. I'm very surprised to have seen this thing posted online. I've mentioned before that I'm often challenged in deciding what and what not to report. Is a deal close enough to reality or has something significant happening that makes it news? Or is it just a concept floating around with no financing, no developer and is not, at least at the moment, close to happening.
The last I checked on this project, it fell into the last category. I'll make a call Monday to make sure nothing new has occurred.

[wsucougz]

I'd give it about a snowball's chance...

[Steve]

It's a concept. I've also seen concepts for high-rises, grocery stores and museums. I can also point out I first saw the Maywood Lofts as a concept, ditto for Devon tower, etc. I wouldn't dismiss it as impossible. But I'm not sure it's something that's real yet.

[wsucougz]

I've seen a lot of concepts, too. $240,000 1br condos just don't pass the smell test is all I'm saying... Unless someone wants to build them with their own cash.

[Pete]

I believe Bomasada is a pretty big developer out of Houston.

It's good to know they are interested in our market and perhaps they have better resources than most the others that are trying to get similar projects off the ground. In fact, that rendering above looks remarkably similar to a project they just did in Little Rock:

http://www.enclaveriverfront.com/



Still, these prices are ridiculous. I'm going to do some research on comparably sized cities and compare the common single-family home prices to those of condos. From a preliminary look, it really seems like the OKC developments continue to be out of whack.

[Steve]

By the way, this same developer actually came up to Oklahoma City and attended the Oklahoma Today OKC issue debut party last year.

[betts]

If they're catering to residents (aka health professionals), their prices are too high for the average doctor just out of medical school with loans to pay off. If they were catering to doctors who've finished residency, they need to be bigger.

[Shake2005]

The same developer started a large project in Tulsa in the Brookside area called "The Enclave", it's an empty lot now and the project is on hold.

[blangtang]

who would be lending on a $75M + project like this ?

hope they do it.

[BG918]

The same developer started a large project in Tulsa in the Brookside area called "The Enclave", it's an empty lot now and the project is on hold.

Yeah I knew I had heard of Bomasada before. The Tulsa location is near 41st & Peoria just east of the Food Pyramid and Whole Foods. That location along Broadway is perfect for this type of development.

[Urbanized]

Actually the location shown in the graphic is between the railroad tracks and Oklahoma Avenue. Also, it's north of 10th; a block due north of Java Dave's if that helps. There's a power transfer station along its south boundary.

[Midtowner]

The sort of health professionals who would be interested in this sort of condo would probably be residents and younger docs of that sort. Not many of them could swing the sort of cash needed to make payments on a $240K condo.

[Rover]

I still think one of these projects need to be "vertical". I think in doing so you create a prestige. You can also have various levels of quality of living more easily. In other words, the higher you go in the building, the more amenities, bigger footprints and better finish-out. Lower level can be for rent, with tight qualifications, but lower prices. A 300 unit condo could easily be a 15-20 story tower and be a place people would be excited to live in. The one shown in the picture would be just another apartment project and have no distinction.

If we are ever going to create retail and really special businesses downtown, we have to increase density. These types of projects don't create excitement, don't create density, and tend to look dated and run down quicker.

[betts]

I still think one of these projects need to be "vertical". I think in doing so you create a prestige. You can also have various levels of quality of living more easily. In other words, the higher you go in the building, the more amenities, bigger footprints and better finish-out. Lower level can be for rent, with tight qualifications, but lower prices. A 300 unit condo could easily be a 15-20 story tower and be a place people would be excited to live in. The one shown in the picture would be just another apartment project and have no distinction.

If we are ever going to create retail and really special businesses downtown, we have to increase density. These types of projects don't create excitement, don't create density, and tend to look dated and run down quicker.

I think that's an interesting concept, but I don't really know how many people in Oklahoma City would be excited about living in a tower. We're so accustomed to suburban style housing that it may be that up does not appeal. Although I don't like the locations, and perhaps that was a factor, the Founders Tower and Classen tower were not wildly popular with buyers. I'm beginning to wonder how many people truly want to live downtown regardless. I'd be really interested to see, were there actually housing at $100 to $150 a square foot available downtown, how many people would be buying. I think there's a lot of talk, but am not sure how many people would put their money where their mouth is. I'd also like to see precisely what can be built at what prices, practically. Are the people building downtown greedy gougers, or are the costs for building up instead of out higher? Have they misjudged the market, or are there reasons why they are selling at these prices? Certainly the materials used in the Maywood Park brownstones justify the price per square foot, but I don't know about the Hill or the Maywood lofts.

I don't know the answers to these questions, but would definitely be interested in hearing them.

[circuitboard]

I think that's an interesting concept, but I don't really know how many people in Oklahoma City would be excited about living in a tower. We're so accustomed to suburban style housing that it may be that up does not appeal. Although I don't like the locations, and perhaps that was a factor, the Founders Tower and Classen tower were not wildly popular with buyers. I'm beginning to wonder how many people truly want to live downtown regardless. I'd be really interested to see, were there actually housing at $100 to $150 a square foot available downtown, how many people would be buying. I think there's a lot of talk, but am not sure how many people would put their money where their mouth is. I'd also like to see precisely what can be built at what prices, practically. Are the people building downtown greedy gougers, or are the costs for building up instead of out higher? Have they misjudged the market, or are there reasons why they are selling at these prices? Certainly the materials used in the Maywood Park brownstones justify the price per square foot, but I don't know about the Hill or the Maywood lofts.

I don't know the answers to these questions, but would definitely be interested in hearing them.

I disagree. 360 failed because of no parking garage. No one is going to buy 250k condo with no secure parking for there 50k vehicle. Yeah I know they are talking about building a garage, they have been saying that for months, still no progress. The classen failed because it is an ugly tower. If someone builds a quality, good looking tower with amenities expected at that price range. It will succeed.

[betts]

I actually didn't say why the Founders Tower and Classen projects failed, but was more wondering why. Parking would be an issue with me, but I'm not sure that's the only answer. The question is, who is this "someone" who would feel their money is safe building a quality tower? Someone with incredibly deep pockets who likes to take risks, because there's nothing that has happened here that would give me the assurance that people will buy, nor the banks, I'm sure. Block 42 is probably the most successful of all the downtown housing, and it's still not full. What is really the difference between four floors at Maywood and 10 floors, as their listings are in that price range? I just don't think there's enough evidence that a project like that will succeed to make it a worthwhile risk, enough evidence that people will snap up $250,000 condos because they get to live on the sixth or eighth floor instead of the fourth, to make it worth the risk. If I were a developer, I'd wait to see if the existing projects ever fill up, if people in OKC really want to buy downtown, before I took that kind of a risk.

This isn't something I want to be true, as I do own property downtown, and am completely mystified why lots of people don't see the benefit. OKC is full of people who have bought $125,000 to $800,000 homes, many of them at $200 a square foot, so it's not just an affordability issue. I'm sure some people are afraid that downtown housing will end up being a big flop, and they'll take a financial hit. A lot of people just don't see the advantage to living there. Again, it's a chicken and egg thing. People don't want to move downtown because there isn't a grocery store, lots of retail, etc, and yet if they don't move in from outlying areas, there probably won't ever be a grocery store, lots of retail, etc. I'm just looking for answers. There are clearly lots of other mid size cities that don't have this problem.

[Rover]

The units built downtown appeal to a very limited demographic. I don't believe the designers/developers actually designed around where the demand is. For instance, I would love to consider an urban contemporary unit of 2000+sf all on one floor. I would want the security of a secure garage and some amenities like exercise room, but all in the same building (not just in the same complex). I would want to have storage area in the building, but not at $300/sq ft. to store things. I would be willing to pay $150-200 sq ft. and reasonable dues for security, maintenance and common area. A view from a high floor or reasonable urban view would be desirable. I would like a tastefully designed tower I would be proud to point out to my friends as my home. Frankly, there aren't any of these in OKC, but I could have my pick of places in many, many cities.

[betts]

The units built downtown appeal to a very limited demographic. I don't believe the designers/developers actually designed around where the demand is. For instance, I would love to consider an urban contemporary unit of 2000+sf all on one floor. I would want the security of a secure garage and some amenities like exercise room, but all in the same building (not just in the same complex). I would want to have storage area in the building, but not at $300/sq ft. to store things. I would be willing to pay $150-200 sq ft. and reasonable dues for security, maintenance and common area. A view from a high floor or reasonable urban view would be desirable. I would like a tastefully designed tower I would be proud to point out to my friends as my home. Frankly, there aren't any of these in OKC, but I could have my pick of places in many, many cities.

But how many people are there like you? Perhaps you're a limited demographic as well. That's my point. Who knows? There's no way to know without taking a big financial risk, at a time when a lot of devlopers are having difficulty getting the money. Clearly, what appeals in other cities doesn't necessarily appeal here, because what already exists downtown are acceptable types of housing for people in other cities.

I just spent a week in Chicago, where three flats are one of the primary types of residence. In a middle to lower middle class neighborhood where my kids live (Ukrainian Village), where the majority of people living are singles and young marrieds, one floor of a three flat will cost you $200,00 to $400,000. I didn't see many empty buildings. There are highrises in downtown, but that's not where the majority of people live. New York, Boston and Washington D.C. are full of townhouses, and I understand why the developers who built the ones here thought people might like to live in that type of house.

What I'm trying to say is that in most cities, there is downtown or relatively near downtown housing for all income levels. I don't think it was outrageous for developers to build higher cost housing, and perhaps someday people in that income bracket will see the appeal. But, I don't think we have any evidence that housing would have been snapped up faster if it was built for a different income bracket either. That's the fallacy, IMO. We have a few people who post here, and some have implied they would like to live downtown, but how many actually would were a high rise or something cheaper available? I don't know if we know the answer to that. Perhaps it would be no more lucrative for developers to build for a different demographic. I don't know how one would know.

[CCOKC]

I disagree. 360 failed because of no parking garage. No one is going to buy 250k condo with no secure parking for there 50k vehicle. Yeah I know they are talking about building a garage, they have been saying that for months, still no progress. The classen failed because it is an ugly tower. If someone builds a quality, good looking tower with amenities expected at that price range. It will succeed.

FYI the parking garage was started a few weeks ago.

[Rover]

There are professional ways of assessing demand and demographics of that demand.

Of the examples you made, like Chicago, the CORE of the downtown does not have low rise unless they are in very old established buildings. 7-10 stories is about as low rise as it gets. The three-five story developments are on the outside of the core and do not define the city.

If the city is serious about promoting density and its advantages, it would look at zoning and tax advantages to encourage the development, if indeed it is more risky. It would also promote more mass trans in the inner area and give special zoning and incentives for markets, etc.

I would think a study of how Vancouver did it would be interesting. It is slightly larger than OKC but has a vibrant core like what we talk about desiring.

[betts]

There are professional ways of assessing demand and demographics of that demand.

Of the examples you made, like Chicago, the CORE of the downtown does not have low rise unless they are in very old established buildings. 7-10 stories is about as low rise as it gets. The three-five story developments are on the outside of the core and do not define the city.

If the city is serious about promoting density and its advantages, it would look at zoning and tax advantages to encourage the development, if indeed it is more risky. It would also promote more mass trans in the inner area and give special zoning and incentives for markets, etc.

I would think a study of how Vancouver did it would be interesting. It is slightly larger than OKC but has a vibrant core like what we talk about desiring.

If there are professional ways of assessing demand, perhaps now would be a good time to do that, if it hasn't been done. I think tax advantages are an excellent idea as well, if they don't already exist.

See, I see the three to five story developments in Chicago as urban. Ukrainian Village is only 2 miles outside the core, and there are closer in neighborhoods like it. I don't think we have to define urban as high rise, as even three to five story buildings are far denser than what Oklahoma City is accustomed to. And that kind of density can be very vibrant, as you typically have stoops and more people out on the street than with a high rise. Baby steps.

[metro]

I believe this is Bert Belanger's project. He does have a reputable company based out of Houston that supposively the financing is already in place. The thing that holds his Broadway developments up is the train noise issue. He's waiting on the Quiet Zone to pass before he moves with his Broadway purchases. This is really old news as it has been mentioned several times in the past.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...life-soon.html

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...velopment.html

Betts, to answer you're question. I'd be another one (and MANY people I know) would love to live in a high-rise, if there was that option or it were affordable. The Classen and Park Harvey are actually successful, but as rentals. The Classen didn't take off in the for purchase option because of it's LOCATION. Yes, it's in the inner core, but it's not downtown close to all the amenities, you still have to get in your car and drive downtown to do anything. With no real mass transit in this City, one can't justify purchasing at the Classen to get downtown at this point in time. The Regency, Park Harvey and Classen (all high rise rentals) do very well.

Also keep in mind DC, NYC, etc. all have lots of old structures that are outdated and have maintenance issues. These are usually the "affordable" ones in major cities. Heck, as you know in NYC $2000 mo. will rent a small 1-2 bed rathole (dingy paint, outdated and dirty finishes, poor plumbing and fixtures, etc.). We simple don't have any old structures like that downtown that are rentable, but one is basically willing to rent as-is without dumping multi-millions into. We have to build new, and building up simply costs more. I strongly believe the $80-$150K market is there if a developer has the resources and cajones to build it. Sure the profit margin per unit would be low, but it'll sell.