Churches?

[dismayed]

This is really more a thread for those who are Christians practicing in OKC... no offense to our non-Christians in the audience... I hope you have found happiness and meaning in your way as I have found in mine, it's just that I am looking for some fairly specific input.

What are some churches around the metropolitan area that take a more mainstream view on things, e.g. they accept evolution and other scientific theories as science and recognize that science coexists and has a purpose separate from religion? What churches have leadership that realize that the point of Genesis is not that of a science textbook but instead is a book of spiritual instruction? Which ones stress the teachings of Jesus, e.g. loving one another, supporting one another through fellowship so that we may all grow, better ourselves, and succeed, and so on?

I cannot help but feel that much of what is going on in the Christian world today is similar to the time of the Pharisees... there are so many who are self-righteous that are quick to lash out at the sins of others, without any fore-thought made as to how this is perceived and that most will run away, not towards the church because of this. So many churches I have been to focus on the wrong things... often times getting into semantic literalistic debates that are often meaningless from a spiritual perspective, missing the big picture of what our religion is supposed to be all about.

Are there any churches that have Bible classes that realize that both 2000 years ago and today that in Judaism it has always been customary to ask questions of pastors to further knowledge and have Q&A exchanges, and that this is not 'questioning your faith?'

Does this rant make any sense whatsoever? It just seems like in Oklahoma so many of the churches are so "old school..." I'm curious what some on this board think are some churches that try to break from this mold?

[PennyQuilts]

I have been gone from OKC for nine years and sometimes you forget the religious climate. Around here, near Washington D.C., religion isn't on the topic of conversation. I work with kids so from time to time I hear about a church activity but it is not something families build their lives around. Religious beliefs, much less discussions of Jesus, just aren't part of the background of conversation. It is an odd switch from OKC. To be honest, I don't think it has been a good thing. People in this part of the world seem to lack meaning in their lives and are just drifting. There are lots of ways to get meaning but religion certainly is one of them.

That being said, when I was back home this summer, a girlfriend and I were at Borders and she was looking for a particular book with vampires in it. The clerk, a middle aged lady, said that she always felt like she was going to burn in hell if she pointed out what section those particular books were in. She wasn't really kidding. My friend didn't bat an eyelash but it sure brought me back to the realization of the difference in the bible belt vs. elsewhere. This is a little off topic but is intended to merely underscore just how dramatic is the wide Christian religious spectrum.

I hope you find what you are looking for. I'm thinking of going Catholic when I get back!

[Martin]

i hope i'm not deviating from your topic, but some thoughts/questions...

there are so many who are self-righteous that are quick to lash out at the sins of others

for example... what? i guess i want to get a feel for what you would consider 'lashing out' at the sins of others... i'd think that definition would be relative. some people think that christianity should be accepting of all walks of life and behavior regardless of what has been traditionally viewed as 'right' and 'wrong'...

...without any fore-thought made as to how this is perceived and that most will run away, not towards the church because of this.

if 'lashing out' is taking a hard-line stand against sin, does it really matter if the message is attractive? wouldn't it be better to be unpopular and stand for the truth?

it just seems like in oklahoma so many of the churches are so "old school..."

depending on what you mean by 'old school', i think this would be an instance where 'old school' would be good... i'd say that whatever christianity originally stood for to those who originally delivered the message would be the best expression of the religion.

-M

[flintysooner]

I really have no specific answers to the questions you raise but your post made me think of a post iMonk made yesterday: The Devil's Sermon

Apologies if the rules disallow blog post links.

[Blangdon]

First Presbyterian OKC. Talk with Carl Bosteels...the pastor. Great church with real people wanting to grow in their faith. NOT a congregation of fakes and pretenders. Check it out Home | fpcokc

[dismayed]

for example... what? i guess i want to get a feel for what you would consider 'lashing out' at the sins of others... i'd think that definition would be relative. some people think that christianity should be accepting of all walks of life and behavior regardless of what has been traditionally viewed as 'right' and 'wrong'...

I'm not really talking about taking a soft stance on sin. Let's take a step back and look at it from a political/US state department standpoint. Say we have a country that is doing some things we don't agree with. We could pound our fist on the table, extol our greatness at the top of our lungs to all, and demand the other country change. Or we could be diplomatic and through partnership *show* the other country why we would like them to do a thing, and in doing so perhaps they not only come to see our viewpoint but also respect our integrity in how we have gone about doing that thing... and in that, they think to themselves, "what a great belief this is that these people would be this way... I want to know more about this Jesus."

If we go back 2000 to 2500 years ago, in the time of the Pharisees, there was a lot of the former going around. I think when Jesus gave us His sermon on the mount that he was directly addressing this and giving us a new commandment on how to deal with sin and spread the gospel.

When someone is as abrasive as one of the talking heads on TV, and then thinly veils their antagonism with an un-genuine smile they are not helping Christianity, they are hurting us all. That is really what I am talking about.

depending on what you mean by 'old school', i think this would be an instance where 'old school' would be good... i'd say that whatever christianity originally stood for to those who originally delivered the message would be the best expression of the religion.

When I said old school above I was talking mid-20th century. I agree that going with what Christianity originally stood for is a good thing, but I guess what I'm saying is that it has been a very long time since the majority of our churches were doing that and I don't believe "old school" is that thing.

In a lot of ways I think the Mormons are doing it the right way. I don't agree with them at all from a Doctrine standpoint, but I honestly can't think of a nicer group of people as a whole... and certainly soft on sin they are not. They are doing something right, and it makes me curious about them. When was the last time we heard non-believers saying that sort of thing about mainline Christianity? That is a problem.

[dismayed]

First Presbyterian OKC. Talk with Carl Bosteels...the pastor. Great church with real people wanting to grow in their faith. NOT a congregation of fakes and pretenders. Check it out Home | fpcokc

I have heard good things about Presbyterian churches in general. Thanks, I'll put them on the list.

Any others have suggestions?

[Martin]

i'm not really talking about taking a soft stance on sin...

gotcha... thanks for clarifying.

in a lot of ways i think the mormons are doing it the right way...

totally agree. i recently had a nice chat with a couple 'elders' that came to my door... they couldn't have been more polite and respectful. i know they're often made fun of for it, but i can't help but respect the courage that it takes to go door-to-door like they do.

-M

[Charlie40]

Crossroads CHurch at 89th and South Shields. We are a down to earth church who is about helping the lost and the hurting. We don't have set sunday schedules we let the holy spirit lead us. Crossroads Church - Home

[Martin]

i really don't want to derail this thread and i don't want to sound critical but...

we don't have set sunday schedules we let the holy spirit lead us.

what?? do you guys just show up whenever the 'spirit' moves you? sunday @ 9:30am one week... tuesday @ 1:30pm the next? does everybody just miraculously show up at the same time?

(btw, crossroadsokc.com does list a regular schedule)

-M

on edit: since it seems as if you go there, charlie40... maybe you can tell me this... what happened with dan sheaffer? i always thought he was an integral part of crossroads and then just one day... poof... he's gone. when did he leave crossroads? why did he leave?

[Charlie40]

i really don't want to derail this thread and i don't want to sound critical but...


what?? do you guys just show up whenever the 'spirit' moves you? sunday @ 9:30am one week... tuesday @ 1:30pm the next? does everybody just miraculously show up at the same time?

(btw, crossroadsokc.com does list a regular schedule)

-M

on edit: since it seems as if you go there, charlie40... maybe you can tell me this... what happened with dan sheaffer? i always thought he was an integral part of crossroads and then just one day... poof... he's gone. when did he leave crossroads? why did he leave?

Sorry I didnt make my message very clear i was in a rush at work when i wrote it. I mean to say that we do a schedule but if the pastor feels led by the holy spirit he will follow that instead of his scheduled sermon.

M I will reply to your question about Sheaffer via e-mail.

[Martin]

ok... that makes way more sense! thanks in advance for the sheaffer pm. -M

[Charlie40]

ok... that makes way more sense! thanks in advance for the sheaffer pm. -M

No Problem it should be in your forum in box now.

[dismayed]

That being said, when I was back home this summer, a girlfriend and I were at Borders and she was looking for a particular book with vampires in it.

Twilight? Say it isn't so. :-)

I hope you find what you are looking for. I'm thinking of going Catholic when I get back!

Now that is interesting. I thought you were Wiccan for some reason? If you are, then by going to a Catholic church does that mean to you that you are "converting" or do you see the two belief systems being compatible? What is it about Catholicism that is the draw?

[PennyQuilts]

Twilight? Say it isn't so. :-)

Now that is interesting. I thought you were Wiccan for some reason? If you are, then by going to a Catholic church does that mean to you that you are "converting" or do you see the two belief systems being compatible? What is it about Catholicism that is the draw?

No, it wasn't Twilight. Apparently it was some author who set her books out of Tulsa.

Wiccan is way too organized and formal, for me. I'm a pagan.

As for Catholism, I just love the incense - or as my husband refers to it as, "the smoking tea ball."

Actually, I am being silly. I went to a Catholic high school and had neighbors who were Catholic. I feel very comfortable at mass and just overall enjoy the ritual. That sounds like rote but it isn't. I find that having the ritual helps me to attain a meditative attitude. To top it all off, I was never molested by a priest so there is that. All of the priests have been good to me, and good to my family when I lost my sister as a teen. Those things are important. Oh, I had a couple of nuns fuss at me but I had it coming. And they were lovely to me in the months I was grieving for my sister and also were the ones who stood beside me with kindness rather than lectures when I found myself pregnant at 16 and scared to death. I was not Catholic but they treated me like a human being. They were the embodiment of love without saying a word.

My religious faith has always been important to me. I tended in my younger years to break, not bend, on my religious faith which is probably why I eventually left the protestant faith. I think I thought it to death and as far as I was concerned, to water down the faith to make it fit with modern lifestyles left you with nothing concrete to attach to. I was no cafeteria christian, for sure. It was all or nothing so in my case, it went to nothing. Plus, I didn't like the way women had been treated, historically, by the christian church. Any of the paternalistic religions were hard on women.

I studied religion, especially christianity, in college and my theology classes were the toughest ones I've ever had, including law school. Had I been male, I would have considered going to seminary (at that time, possessing a somewhat fundamentalist bent, I didn't consider clergy to be an appropriate role for a female). Those classes gave me an excellent intellectual foundation to consider my faith.

At this point in my life, I think the Catholic ritual, coupled with the kindnesses and decency shown to me and my family by the clergy would work well for someone like myself who is no longer worried about making all the pieces fit. Of course, no way do I believe that the wine turns to blood (I do have some pride) so if I have to say that is so, I guess I'll just continue to do the pagan skyclad dancing, assuming I can stay awake late enough to do that without getting arrested. I tend to nod off around 10:30 so it isn't likely to happen.

[USG '60]

No, it wasn't Twilight. Apparently it was some author who set her books out of Tulsa.

Wiccan is way too organized and formal, for me. I'm a pagan.

As for Catholism, I just love the incense - or as my husband refers to it as, "the smoking tea ball."

Actually, I am being silly. I went to a Catholic high school and had neighbors who were Catholic. I feel very comfortable at mass and just overall enjoy the ritual. That sounds like rote but it isn't. I find that having the ritual helps me to attain a meditative attitude. To top it all off, I was never molested by a priest so there is that. All of the priests have been good to me, and good to my family when I lost my sister as a teen. Those things are important. Oh, I had a couple of nuns fuss at me but I had it coming. And they were lovely to me in the months I was grieving for my sister and also were the ones who stood beside me with kindness rather than lectures when I found myself pregnant at 16 and scared to death. I was not Catholic but they treated me like a human being. They were the embodiment of love without saying a word.

My religious faith has always been important to me. I tended in my younger years to break, not bend, on my religious faith which is probably why I eventually left the protestant faith. I think I thought it to death and as far as I was concerned, to water down the faith to make it fit with modern lifestyles left you with nothing concrete to attach to. I was no cafeteria christian, for sure. It was all or nothing so in my case, it went to nothing. Plus, I didn't like the way women had been treated, historically, by the christian church. Any of the paternalistic religions were hard on women.

I studied religion, especially christianity, in college and my theology classes were the toughest ones I've ever had, including law school. Had I been male, I would have considered going to seminary (at that time, possessing a somewhat fundamentalist bent, I didn't consider clergy to be an appropriate role for a female). Those classes gave me an excellent intellectual foundation to consider my faith.

At this point in my life, I think the Catholic ritual, coupled with the kindnesses and decency shown to me and my family by the clergy would work well for someone like myself who is no longer worried about making all the pieces fit. Of course, no way do I believe that the wine turns to blood (I do have some pride) so if I have to say that is so, I guess I'll just continue to do the pagan skyclad dancing, assuming I can stay awake late enough to do that without getting arrested. I tend to nod off around 10:30 so it isn't likely to happen.

and a big smile

[dismayed]

I really have no specific answers to the questions you raise but your post made me think of a post iMonk made yesterday: The Devil's Sermon

Apologies if the rules disallow blog post links.

I somehow missed this the first go around, thanks for posting it.

An interesting footnote... it isn't mentioned in the link, and I don't know maybe this is common knowledge, but in Greek the word "devil" translates to "the accuser." In Hebrew ha-satan is often translated as "the adversary," but it can also be translated as "the prosecutor."

[ronronnie1]

Wouldn't be caught dead in a church (well, actually, that'll be the ONLY time.)

[PennyQuilts]

Ronronnie, be sure to tell when you plan to go - I may skip that service to be on the safe side!

[HVAC Instructor]

Ronronnie, be sure to tell when you plan to go - I may skip that service to be on the safe side!

You mean you wouldn't pay your respects to RR? That's terrible ECO!

[PennyQuilts]

You mean you wouldn't pay your respects to RR? That's terrible ECO!

I'd wish her luck on her way in and my way out!

[USG '60]

Going back to the beginning question, I would think that Church of the Servant and Mayflower Congregational Church would fit the request. Being a heathen I attend neither but both have reputations as open, progressive, nonjudgemental congregations with like-mined pastors.

[mugofbeer]

I will also second Mayflower Congregational. It really is more of a Unitarian Church now with only peripheral emphasis on Jesus. The minister is also very politically liberal and frequently preaches politics from the pulpit. If you want to go somewhere that doesn't scream repentance at you constantly and gets your fire up politically and philosophically, this is a church to try - though many wouldn't call it a place of worship.

[MsDarkstar]

No, it wasn't Twilight. Apparently it was some author who set her books out of Tulsa.

That would be the House of Night books by P.C. Cast & her daughter Kristen Cast.

As far as the original question goes Home | Westmoore Church has always felt pretty progressive & open to me.

[metro]

Wouldn't be caught dead in a church (well, actually, that'll be the ONLY time.)

Then why spend your time and efforts in a thread for something you don't believe in?