Valets-Oklahomans are Cheap!!! Give a tip!!!!

[bluedogok]

Most valet operations are contracted, so only the contracted company MAY get paid by the casino or they may have to pay the casino to operate much like a stylist/barber pays the salon or shop for booth space. I would image that valets out there get paid at least a minimum wage (not sure if it would be the normal or "regularly tipped employee" rate) by the valet operator.

Of course a valet (and other people in the service industry) in a "flash and trash" capitol have more opportunity to make large money because people tend to throw money around to impress others. You don't work at that level of the service industry in "fly over" land if you want to become rich, it's something you do to get by until you figure out what you want to do when you grow up. If you want to make a career of it you need to be on the coasts or Vegas.

[PennyQuilts]

I don't trust valets. I figure they are stealing my gum and stuff. Or making copies of my keys.

[dismayed]

Ever since those valet's in Ferris Beuller's Day Off went on a joy ride in Cameron's dad's car I just don't trust them.... :-)

[evh5150]

its not so much that oklahomans are cheap, but the ratio of residents here versus ratio of residents on "the west coast" who hold college-degreed jobs simply pales in comparison.

to live comfortably on the west coast you pretty much need a college degree to afford decent housing for certain, let alone other necessities and/or luxuries.

here in oklahoma, there are some who hold college degrees and others who dont. however, in oklahoma its possible for one to live decent and comfortably without a college degree although sometimes living that way tends to cause one to consistently budget their finances.

that being said, theres only so many times that a given individual can afford to tip x amount of times in a given month to various establishments: valets, restaurant workers, hotel staff, etc.

more than ever today those who dont have college degrees are wanting to enjoy many of the same luxuries that those who do have college degrees already enjoy. the more luxuries that they are able to enjoy, the better quality of life they feel that they have attained.

so if in their mind they eat out 500 times, and refuse to leave a $2 tip each of those times...thats $1,000 they have saved.

its the reason many manufacturing jobs are located overseas for cheap labor, why sunday newspapers are jammed-packed with coupons, why many flock to yard sales seeking the best bargains, and why walmart thrives....

the occupationally underpriveledged are more and more demanding a higher stature of living thats akin to their college-degreed counterparts..even if that means withholding tips here and there to achieve that.

[bluedogok]

its not so much that oklahomans are cheap, but the ratio of residents here versus ratio of residents on "the west coast" who hold college-degreed jobs simply pales in comparison.

It has nothing to do with the issue if you are "educated" or not, it has more to do with personality types and respect for what others do more than anything else. Some of the biggest tightwads that I have known have been very highly educated people (some with very advanced degrees) but they also treat everyone else around them with very little respect while some of the most generous and well respected people are the ones who made their own way through life without such an educational "pedigree".

To me there is just an overall lack of respect for the labor of others in today's society, it just seems that most people want everything for nothing.

I don't trust valets. I figure they are stealing my gum and stuff. Or making copies of my keys.

There have been more than a few theft rings (car or home) that have originated with valet connections. I have my car/house keys on one of those keyrings that you can separate. It was mainly for my convienence with swpping out car keys between our cars.

[gmwise]

I don't trust valets. I figure they are stealing my gum and stuff. Or making copies of my keys.

lol an elitist if ever heard of one.

[gmwise]

We also have laws against spitting on the sidewalk. To claim laws are good evidence of a need seems odd. Think about it.

No...think about this.
To show a reason for lawsuit,negligence or criminal behavior you need to define a "breaking of a law", such as .."making copies of car keys by some dishonest valets" ...duh?!

[BBatesokc]

My son worked at Sonic until recently (got a great job at Sam's), however, I never tip the carhop unless the weather is really bad (rain, snow, etc.) and then its only about $.50-$.75.

As for valets... I too rarely use one unless there is no other option or the weather is really bad. I only tip $1-$3 depending mostly on my mood.

I do have a question though. How do you guys handle car services? I travel alot to do TV shows and speaking engagements. Most of the time a car service picks me up at the airport/hotel, etc. Usually for a ride to/from airport I tip $5. The ride to the studio or college, etc. is usually very short and sometimes I tip, but sometimes I don't.

I've asked friendlier drivers and they tell me they are paid pretty well and don't expect a tip from people they are transporting under contract as opposed to private rentals.

In this situation do you tip?

[PennyQuilts]

No...think about this.
To show a reason for lawsuit,negligence or criminal behavior you need to define a "breaking of a law", such as .."making copies of car keys by some dishonest valets" ...duh?!

That has nothing to do with an underlying need for a law. You are just describing an element of a claim.

[Midtowner]

I have heard that argument often when discussing a living wage, but have never seen any numbers put to it. That would tell the true story. But lets hypothetically look at your situation as an aspiring attorney. After establishing yourself through competent hard work, persistence and due dilligence, you now find yourself with the confidence to open your new law office. What will you need to open your doors to the public? A building for an office, purchased or, most likely leased, and maybe one paralegal and one secretary to start. I would think it safe to assume an educated paralegal will make far above the living wage, but lets say you have to pay your secretary $15 per hour to start.

I'll probably never need a paralegal (and I don't even really know what that is as there's no consistent mark of qualification or quality for individuals holding themselves out as 'paralegal,' and even so someone who is somewhat educated in the law, but not enough to be licensed to practice is just a little on the scary side, particularly from the perspective of one who would be responsible for their malpractice.

That said, I'm more than likely at some point to take on someone to work as a receptionist and file clerk. I'm also more than likely going to seek out a law student or a college student for that work and I plan on paying them as low a wage as I can get away with. There's no shortage of kids who need an employer who can work with their schedule and understand that they need some slack around finals, and many are willing to be paid a subsistence wage for that sort of 'understanding.' Take the D.A.'s office -- they pay interns around $8/hour to do basically the same work in many cases that the A.D.A.s would be doing.

To force the issue of a living wage would mean that the D.A.'s office and I will simply not be employing these people. No way am I going to part with $35-$40K of the money I bring in for services I don't necessarily want or need and no way is the D.A. going to be able to pay for more Assistants on its already shoestring budget.

The paralegal's wages will be the reasonable and customary wage for that occupation depending uopn experience, and as such, will not contribute to an increase in what you charge your clients. The wild card is the secretary in the front office earning $15 per hour. Lets say that is $5 per hour more than you might have paid a secretary without the living wage law. You would then divide that $5 per hour by the number of clients you serve and add it to their bill. Depending upon the number of clients you acquire, this hourly amount will likely wind up being less than $1 per hour per client, and if you are really good, it will amount to pennies per hour. That's not much of an overhead increase, and your secretary will have more money to spend at more businesses.

If I hire a paralegal and they're willing to work for less than the "reasonable and customary wage for that occupation," either I made a good deal in convincing them to work at that wage, or possibly market forces say that there are a glut of paralegals and not so many jobs to be had, thus market forces dictate a lower wage than was previously "reasonable and customary."

Further, I don't want to get into the particulars of running a small law office, but to say I could simply "pass along the costs" says to me that you really don't understand how a law office works. It's not so simple. We can't just pad our bill and we can't assign these overpaid employees to do work that they're unqualified to do or work that doesn't really need to be done in order to simply justify a higher bill. That'd be extremely unethical, not to mention the fact that it'd be a stupid business practice which would run clients off.

The living wage paid to the people who constructed your business building must also be factored in, and divided accordingly. This likely will add only perhaps several hundred dollars to the cost of each individual structure these workers bulid, but will give these workers more money to spend and save. However, in many locales in the country, skilled construction workers are paid over $20 per hour, so there would be zero effect from the living wage. Only the laborers would be affected. Another positive.

A few "hundred" dollars? That's pure fantasy. In the construction business, what'll happen for laborers is that in many, if not most cases, the work which wasn't already going to illegals would most definitely go to illegals, cash would go under the table. No one would earn a "living wage" and in that case, fewer Americans would earn any wage at all.

You can keep carrying these examples out, and it looks to me to result in fewer workers on the dole, and more money flowing through the economy, and less money spent on unemployment insurance premiums.

It seems to me the result would be just the opposite. More workers would be on the dole as more workers who were previously only suitable for subsistence wage jobs or who like law students, interns at the D.A.'s office or college students, workers who because of their other commitments make less than desirable employees without major concessions on the worker's part.

This living wage business assumes too much about the equality of workers. It further hamstrings employers who are looking for a particular type of employee who don't mind trading effectiveness for pay.

I'm sure you've heard this argument before -- maybe it's right?

[HVAC Instructor]

I'm sure you've heard this argument before -- maybe it's right?

I thoroughly enjoyed your well thought response, MT.

Oh yea, I have heard that theory argued many times, and yes, there is certainly logic to it. But to my knowledge, no one has put real numbers to both theories for a side by side by comparison. I bet we would both learn something from that.

The concept of a living wage can be realized in a number of ways. Interns could still be utilized by being classified in a different manner. Some wage laws, for example Englands, also has an age scale to compensate for the begginner entering the work force. There are several ways to approach it. But I do know that it is working in Australia, so it has been done successfully, and could be done successfully here as well.

As to law firms, I know they have some differences to other businesses, but many similarities. Obviously my business is HVAC, and I ran an HVAC/Electrical contracting business for many years, and I can tell you for a fact that if I had to pay my helper $15 per hour (the going helper rate at the time was $10) it would add only $60 to the price of installation of the average HVAC system I installed if Murphy's law came into effect as a worse case scenario. In most cases it would only add $30 or less to the typical system change out. And as a matter of fact, it would not hurt most contractors to eat that cost, or even split the difference. When you need an HVAC system replaced in the future, you will see that the bids can vary from contractor to contractor by hundreds of dollars. I imagine it would be the same with attorney fees.

Good discussion. I can visualize the good that could come from changes in our labor laws and health care system. One thing we all need to keep doing is having open, sincere, logical and respectful discussions on these issues and we will find working solutions that are better than what we have now.

[Drake]

My wife worked at Red Lobster in Shawnee and I was dumbfounded at how poorly Oklahomans tip. Not to mention they were very needy and bossy and not only treated her but all servers there like crap. I have witnessed the rudeness and belittlement almost every time I go to eat, I just don't get it...? Now not to say every okie is socially retarded because there were a few rare exceptions were people over tipped her by quite a bit making it somewhat worth while, but most were leaving 3 dollar tips on $80 tabs after making her run her ass off to serve them.

They should maybe teach a social etiquette class in high school along with the "How not to get pregnant at 15" class, and the "How not to tailgate" class.

Nice post. Stereotype much? If your wife has your attitude its no wonder she doesn't make anything.

[gmwise]

LAW defines the offense does it not?

[PennyQuilts]

LAW defines the offense does it not?

You've forgotten that the original post was the claim that a law indicated a need. Now you are into definitions which makes no sense in the discussion. I think you lost track.

[evh5150]

Is it possible to theorize that many restaurant establishments along the lines of say Chili's, TGI Fridays, Applebees, etc. have a large profit margin set on the retail prices of their food, enough to where they could easily pay their wait staff a decent wage? ..instead of allocating most of the revenue from food sales to account for their overall profit margin and burdening the customer with the responsibility of tipping their server to make-up for the differences in their wages that the company itself refuses to supplement to their waiters?

Its only now in this difficult economic climate that many restaurants are being forced to revamp and/or lower the prices of many items on their menu to where they reflect a much less profit at the end of the night.

so now, more than ever, servers are ever-reliant on tips to suffice their bills.

[SoonerDave]

...(snip)
This living wage business assumes too much about the equality of workers. It further hamstrings employers who are looking for a particular type of employee who don't mind trading effectiveness for pay.

I'm sure you've heard this argument before -- maybe it's right?

Spot-on, Midtowner. Absolutely on the money.

The "Living Wage" business is nothing more than a layer of doubletalk around the wage floor concept that has floated around in various forms for years. It subsists on what amounts to a corrollary of the "soak-the-rich" mentality that says you can just "pass the costs down," which as a matter of economics just isn't true. You can pass some of the costs down, but not all of them.

Increases in the price floor for anything above what the market will accept create surpluses of the item at hand - in this case, labor. You create a wage floor below which rates cannot go, and you get a surplus of labor - translated, unemployment. It drives the creation and expansion of the, ahem, "secondary" labor market that Midtowner has already illustrated so well.

HVAC, I don't think you're going to see "hard numbers" put to this notion because it is empircally true. The intersection of supply and demand curves and the negative economic impact of price floors (or ceilings) is not an abstract concept, and illustrate how the natural forces of the market are intended to drive to its own efficiencies. Labor surpluses are a sign that the market is creating too many similarly qualified employees, and because the "eonomic man" theory supposes each person works to their own best interest, they'll be driven to improve or change their skillset such that they naturally migrate to a better job, better wages, better living circumstance. However, our system at the moment is not driven to have people better themselves; its creating a generation of folks driven to expect the government to push down a better standard for them. When the government fails at accomplishing that, people blame the market, which is fundamentally misguided.

Midtowner is spot-on in that this "living wage" nonsense will eat into his overhead, because he, as a matter of economic fact, cannot pass 100% of his increases in labor (or any other expense, for that matter) to his clients. That means, ultimately, he's going to have to eat some of that expense or increase his prices just to break even. Ensuring a "living wage," whatever that means, is not Midtowner's responsibility. Its his job to pay what he deems adequate compensation for the value obtained from the work the employee performs. Period.

I won't pretend the market here is perfect, but I won't accept that Australia (or anywhere else) is, either. But I will contend the US is miles ahead of most nations. Could you supply numbers to back up the notion that Australia's middle class is substantive larger than that of the US, or that their class of "poor" is smaller?

From your perspective, HVAC, who will define what a "living wage" is? And "living" in what area of the country? New York City? LA? Dallas? Tulsa? Or Ottumwa, Iowa? And how would you propose to enforce this wage? I can see a pretty substantive bureaucracy set up to punish offenders, and to load even more bureaucratic burden on companies who are doing nothing more than contributing to the economy by producing goods and services and paying payroll taxes...

HVAC, you use Australia as a model, yet took offense when someone else said, essentially, "if you don't like it here, or you like it better somewhere else, move there." You said something about how you hear this from "right-wingers," and I guess I don't understand the anger. I'm a "right winger," and when I hear people talk about this "living wage" business, and know how it flies in the face of what I believe is the greatest economy in the world (here in the US), I don't understand what engenders the anger about the suggestion people unhappy here, or enamored of the economic system of another country, move to that place to enjoy it? I'm not trying to start a fight or argument, but just trying to get the point across - if somewhere else has this supposedly clearly superior model, and enjoys a clearly superior life for it, why wouldn't people be tripping over themselves to join it? I've heard several good things over the years about Australia, some people that have aspired to live there, or at least work there temporarily, so they are obviously doing something right, but I also believe there must be some downside...with all the good there is bound to be some bad.

Okay, I realize this has spun off the topic of tips, and let me say I'm sorry for the drift, but it is my thought that small business drives the country, and things that adversely impact their operations - such as "lviing wage" laws, are just inescapably bad news for them, and they just need to be fought.

[flintysooner]

Is it possible to theorize that many restaurant establishments along the lines of say Chili's, TGI Fridays, Applebees, etc. have a large profit margin set on the retail prices of their food, enough to where they could easily pay their wait staff a decent wage?

They certainly are not making a "large profit margin" right now. It will take some doing for businesses in this sector to survive the next few years.

[Jesseda]

i usually tip around 2 dollars, it takes a total of five minutes to get my car so times that by 12 and a valet will make around 24 dollars a hour, even if they break 10 minutes every hour a vaelt makes 20.00 a hour, thats pretty good money.

[metro]

Just curious but why is this in the FOOD section when valets are everywhere besides restaurants (hotels, hospitals, art shows, and other places besides restaurants)?

[alan]

work = money ; a formula as old as time

a person doing work for a customer (i.e. customer service) is working directly for the customer. it only makes sense that the customer pays a person who works hard for them.

as one of the owners of a small business with employees whose primary function is providing my customers with superior product and legendary service, i want them to be rewarded when they do a great job. but i can't be there for every interaction. this is where tips come in. if they work hard, they get paid more. and isn't that the reason you show up to work?

customers; reward hard work with generous tips. otherwise the level of service drops for everyone. ever been to walmart, mcdonald's or the DMV? this is the level of service you can expect when excellence is not rewarded.

service personnel; work hard, have a great attitude, provide a great product and the tips will be there. don't complain about the ones that don't tip, they'll either get it eventually or they never will. if you aren't making enough money; either work harder or move on. complaining never put one dollar in your pocket.

[Thunder]

I got a haircut today and tipped 3 bux. Then went to a resturant and tipped 5 bux.

[USG '60]

I got a haircut today and tipped 3 bux. Then went to a resturant and tipped 5 bux.

You ol' high-roller, you.

[gmwise]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

I think "lawyers" would find this useful.
Unregulated?

Choosing a Business Location | Business.gov

Small Business Assistance and Training | Business.gov

Steps to Registering a Business | Business.gov

Business Incorporation | Business.gov

Small Business Taxes | Business.gov

Business Income Taxes | Business.gov

Employer Identification Number EIN | Business.gov

Employment Taxes | Business.gov

Filing and Paying Small Business Taxes | Business.gov

Managing Small Business Taxes | Business.gov

Advertising Law | Business.gov

Employment and Labor Laws | Business.gov

Environmental Regulations | Business.gov

Business Finance Law | Business.gov

Privacy Laws | Business.gov

Uniform Commercial Code UCC | Business.gov

Business Licenses and Permits | Business.gov

Theres been reasons in which to regulate businesses, its usually follows bad conduct or willful disregard for the safety of others.

Though this wasnt to the topic, it was in answer to a statement made.

[PennyQuilts]

I asked a question, can you answer it?

GM. could you rephrase the question because you aren't making sense. I originally responded to your original post which was that the presence of a law indicated an underlying need. I disagreed with that, at least as a hard and fast rule. What is the controversy?

After that, you started going on about elements of a cause of action which has nothing whatsover to do with an underlying need for a law. That would be completely circular thinking, i.e., that a law indicated an underlying need as evidenced by the fact that it provided the elements of a cause of action to enforce the law.

So, again, could you rephrase the question? Perhaps it would make more sense, then.

[evh5150]

Just curious but why is this in the FOOD section when valets are everywhere besides restaurants (hotels, hospitals, art shows, and other places besides restaurants)?

to answer that question, its more than likely because the topic talks about tips (or lack thereof), and the most common encounter customers have the option to tip is restaurants rather than valets.