MAPS 3 proposal...if you're listening Mayor and Coucil

[metro]

Okay, so with all the recent debate, thinking and re-thinking about Core-To-Shore, it seems the majority is not in favor of C2S as proposed. The majority of OKC citizens DO seem to be in favor of a mass transit system. My good friend Jeff Bezdek says we need at least $100 million to run an effective streetcar system. The Ford Center improvements are a one year tax for a projected $121 million but due to decline in economy is going to come in closer to $100 million.

I am proposing that the Council, Mayor Mick, OKC Chamber and others, really take a hard look at this and get some more outsider opinion for another 6-9 months or so before we make what could be the biggest blunder in OKC history in decades. Why don't we have a MAPS 3 for public transportation. Make it a 18-24 month tax (Similar to the model used for Ford Center improvements) to fund a respectable public transportation system. Before the tax expires, city leaders would have had more time, public input, outsider input for revisions that will clearly take us where we need to go, without this rush-rush, Obama-style stimulus gimme my piece of the pie mentality we seem to have going lately with MAPS3. MAPS 4 could then be other projects including a well-thought out C2S proposal.

Thoughts?

[Patrick]

Each vote takes extensive funding for PR. I'd rather limit the votes, and have MAPS III be more inclusive. There's still plenty of time to hash all of this out. I don't see why MAPS III can't be at least a 10 year proposal and include multiple projects like a start-up commuter rail line, new convention center, new central park, a few canal extensions, an Expo center at the fairgrounds, etc. I'm still waiting for the new library in far NW OKC.

[metro]

Patrick, actually the City can't do PR for campaigns. That is the Chamber's duty which the Chamber is a PRIVATE entity. I'd rather see the streetcar get launched quick, by far it has the most ROI and the quickest. Other cities have proven this time and again. If we made it a 1.5 year tax, we'd see the project or other projects start/finish a lot sooner than if we make this a billion or 1.2 billion 10 year extension. I'd rather revise it as needed every few years.



3: Is the Chamber a government entity?
A: No, the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber is a non-profit corporation that operates government contracts and raises funds independently.

http://www.okcchamber.com/page.asp?atomid=1627#FAQ3

[Patrick]

I think for the streetcar to be successful, it will take even longer planning, especially in how we're going to market it to local citizens. Yes, citizens have expressed a want for improved mass transit, but when it comes down to it, I really wonder how many folks will give up their personal vehicles to use this system.

The more votes you offer, the more likely you are to get one voted down. I don't want to take that risk.

[gmwise]

The thing is we have been taking surveys for years in the Mass transit question.
We were told "well after maps2 we'll do this for mass transit", then this bs, with the ford center happened. NOW we're being asked to build a whole new convention center. I am tired of us tap dancing about it.
I think this explains all the delays more then anything else.
Great American streetcar scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[betts]

I would like to see a delay. This all should be perfectly planned, vetted with a sample of voters and perhaps take a year off so that hopefully the economy will improve. It then proves to the anti-continuous tax people that this isn't a permanent tax. This feels like a rush job, and something that is so important to our city should be thoughtfully planned. Also, if the vote fails, it's going to be very difficult to generate interest in a mini-MAPS, or some way to fund parts of the plan. We shouldn't put MAPS3 up for a vote until reasonably certain it will pass.

[Platemaker]

I think for the streetcar to be successful, it will take even longer planning, especially in how we're going to market it to local citizens. Yes, citizens have expressed a want for improved mass transit, but when it comes down to it, I really wonder how many folks will give up their personal vehicles to use this system.

The more votes you offer, the more likely you are to get one voted down. I don't want to take that risk.

"I'll repost my answer, at least, to your nearly identical post in the Canal Extension thread yesterday:

That is not the point now! The point is building from he center out! It WILL be a success with downtowners and downtown visitors.

From that success the citzens of the inner city will demand it (happens EVERYWHERE it's started) and will alos increase the density of the inner city because people will want to move in."

As far as longer planning .... sure. BUT a Sheridan Avenue starter line is something I'd bet money ANY planner would recommend.

[Platemaker]

Original MAPS: about $363 million

MAPS III:
$100 million Streetcar
$75 million Central Park
$250 million Convention Center

Can it be done?

[Thunder]

Original MAPS: about $363 million

MAPS III:
$100 million Streetcar
$75 million Central Park
$250 million Convention Center

Can it be done?

Don't forget the jail and the canal.

[Platemaker]

Don't forget the jail and the canal.

LOL I forgot those two on purpose.

[soonerguru]

this rush-rush, Obama-style stimulus

Not to quibble, but the point was to rush as much as the government is capable to stimulate spending. A slow, argumentative, deliberative approach was not what the economic situation called for (not that I agree with where Congress appropriated all of the funding, which is only now really starting to get distributed. That's hardly "rush rush.")

That aside, I do agree further deliberation and thinking may be in order for MAPS 3.

The think I come back to is that I conceptually support a lot of the projects being discussed, but when I analyze them further, I'm not crazy about the execution of them and worry about hasty decisions being made, and as you point out, negatively affecting the city for decades.

[LordGerald]

I would like to see a delay. This all should be perfectly planned, vetted with a sample of voters and perhaps take a year off so that hopefully the economy will improve. It then proves to the anti-continuous tax people that this isn't a permanent tax. This feels like a rush job, and something that is so important to our city should be thoughtfully planned. Also, if the vote fails, it's going to be very difficult to generate interest in a mini-MAPS, or some way to fund parts of the plan. We shouldn't put MAPS3 up for a vote until reasonably certain it will pass.

I'm thinking that with the Jail Task Force recommendation, that a MAPS 3 is going to have to be delayed, in order to separate itself from any county initiative. I don't think the public is going to approve both if they happen within months of each other. At this point, I see a jail vote going down in flames. If I'm a city leader, I want Maps 3 to be kept as far from the jail as possible.

[metro]

Original MAPS: about $363 million

MAPS III:
$100 million Streetcar
$75 million Central Park
$250 million Convention Center

Can it be done?

All I can say is don't be surprised if the Central Park is well over $100 million, unless something changes between now and whenver MAPS3 is announced (supposedly Sept.).

[megax11]

Many didn't seem to favor the penny sales tax for the Ford Center, but it still passed.

Metro, if for some reason you are thinking that those who dislike C2S here means it won't pass, I wouldn't think that, as this is just one forum, and it certainly doesn't have as many registered users, as the population of OKC.

I for one got both of my parents to finally sign up to vote, just over the penny sales tax for Ford Center to lure the NBA. These people have been alive for 50 years and were able to vote for 19 years, but it only took me to convince them. 2 votes for C2S there the second I ask them to go vote "yes."

Then their is my grandmother who could be getting out of rehab soon (remember she was ran over by a truck.) All I have to do is say, "grandma, go vote yes for C2S and or Maps 3, and she will do so asap." Same with my cousin and aunts, and you already have 5 votes you never thought existed. Add mine in, and I tell my fiancee to follow suit, and that is 7 votes you never knew about, or 6 for anyone paying attention to how passionate I am about this city.

What I am saying is, there are more people then you think in OKC, that upon hearing and seeing this project, would be glad to support it. Many don't know why S&A is being torn down, but we know, and ahead of time. Many don't know what is to transpire about C2S or Maps 3.

I would've never known about a Maps 3 had I not visited here. So don't think this wouldn't pass once the general public gets wind of it.

I am fully ready to vote yes on C2S and Maps 3 when it goes to vote. BRING IT!!!

[Luke]

All I can say is don't be surprised if the Central Park is well over $100 million, unless something changes between now and whenver MAPS3 is announced (supposively Sept.).

It's "supposedly", FYI.

[wsucougz]

It's "supposedly", FYI.

he just totally got Metro'd

[EddieC]

I gotta say, I don't think a mass transit system will make a huge impact on the city. Yes, it would be nice, but I'd rather see our tax money go towards something revolutionary for the city, something like a central park or developing the Oklahoma River. The River is our greatest intapped asset, made a great option for expansions and development because of the fact that its already there. The cost-effect range for River projects is eunormous, and who wouldn't like to relax by the river on a summer night? The problem with mass transit is that it doesn't cultivate a vibrant, connected city in the way that Bricktown does.
This is just my opinion. Bricktown seems to be built for walking, and as overweight as Oklahoma is, I think this is a good thing. Do we really need transit to connect our downtown area? I don't think so, and I don't think a transit system will bring in the money some expect. I'd just rather see more development, especially along the River.

[Luke]

I gotta say, I don't think a mass transit system will make a huge impact on the city....I don't think so, and I don't think a transit system will bring in the money some expect. I'd just rather see more development, especially along the River.

Blasphemy!

[OKCRT]

Lets just hope the tax passes before we spend the money. It's not a sure thing these days.

After thinking long and hard about this I can say without a doubt that a new modern state of the art convention center in the most important item we get out of this.

Now if they want to build a 2nd rate center then they can trash it as far as I am concerned.

Trans/streetcars are 2nd on my list.

[bbhill]

Somehow I have a feeling that we are going to accomplish everything mentioned, but it will all be second rate, thus making everything a complete failure.

[Luke]

Somehow I have a feeling that we are going to accomplish everything mentioned, but it will all be second rate, thus making everything a complete failure.

Like lower bricktown on a large scale kinda?

[bbhill]

I can already see a gigantic parking lot sitting smack in the middle of central park. lol hopefully we've learned at least a few lessons from bricktown. . .

[Patrick]

"I'll repost my answer, at least, to your nearly identical post in the Canal Extension thread yesterday:

That is not the point now! The point is building from he center out! It WILL be a success with downtowners and downtown visitors.

From that success the citzens of the inner city will demand it (happens EVERYWHERE it's started) and will alos increase the density of the inner city because people will want to move in."

As far as longer planning .... sure. BUT a Sheridan Avenue starter line is something I'd bet money ANY planner would recommend.

I think I agree. I'd build a downtown circulator line first, and see how successful it is. Then consider longer routes to the burbs, with money from from suburban cities.

[Patrick]

I'd strongly consider the Expo square concept for the fairgrounds. The fairgrounds really bring a lot of money into this city, and I think revamped exhibit space at the fairgrounds could be huge for our city. I also think revamping Cox Center arena could be important for a future AHL team and for keeping the Big XII basketball tournaments.

MAPS III:
$150 million Streetcar/Commuter rail start-up
$100 million Central Park
$250 million Convention Center
$100 million expo center at fairgrounds
$50 million renovate Cox Center arena
$75 million canal extensions
$150 million improvements to the river - improve parks

Total: $875 million over 12 years

I think if you add the county jail to MAPS III, it will die.

[Midtowner]

Patrick, we already have a hotel tax which is used for continuing fairgrounds improvements. Let the State Fair Trust keep up with that.