Canal Extension website debuts...

[krisb]

Who is going to be a part of the group that officially decides on the MAPS 3 ballot? I presume the city council. But I'm not sure how informed council members are of these issues that we are discussing. Most of what they hear comes from vocal special interest groups who sign up to speak at council meetings...plus irate phone calls from lop-sided constituents.

I'm just afraid this is all going to get pushed through WAY prematurely. I don't want the MAPS tax to lapse, but we must have more thoughtful discussion of these BIG TIME plans.

[blangtang]

so we have a murky deadline for which proposals will end up on the maps ballot, which will be voted on some random tuesday in the future.

and special interest group number 2 has rolled out its canal expansion website...

I hope the straddling-the-river-tourist-attraction group rolls out their webpage soon... gotta get some media before the ballot is finalized.

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I'm imagining five years from now, and people are arguing that maps 7/8/9 is essential and must be done, if only to continue the original sales tax and keep it from expiring, regardless of the quality or validity of the actual ballot projects.

give me a 1/2 cent sales tax and i can find a project to fund.

[Architect2010]

It'll be years before any Maps 4, let alone 7, 8, or 9.

And nah, there are still plenty of things that can be completed with that 1-cent tax. There is always improvement needed somewhere.

[metro]

I'm really starting to get concerned about MAPS III. This city has a long standing history of shooting itself in the foot at key times. We've made some good moves in the last decade, but as Pete's comments point out, we have continued to witness blunders left and right.

Core to Shore alone could be a disaster. And it seems they are going to keep piling on more ill-conceived options.

Yeah, and why all the closed door talks about MAPS 3 and the delay in announcing it. I thought the City was going to announce it last year and then because of the Thunder/arena issue, it was delayed. Sounds to me Mick never had it ready to run with then. Why are they releasing it in what is highly speculated to be September, just a couple months before the vote?

[metro]

Who is going to be a part of the group that officially decides on the MAPS 3 ballot? I presume the city council. But I'm not sure how informed council members are of these issues that we are discussing. Most of what they hear comes from vocal special interest groups who sign up to speak at council meetings...plus irate phone calls from lop-sided constituents.

I'm just afraid this is all going to get pushed through WAY prematurely. I don't want the MAPS tax to lapse, but we must have more thoughtful discussion of these BIG TIME plans.

My sources tell me the City Council will hear about MAPS 3 in August with a public unveiling in Sept. We'll see if that unfolds or what.

[BDP]

Personally, I think MAPS was very well done and I really like what has come out of it. It is actually the private end of the developments that have failed us and a lot of that has to do with Urban Renewal mishandling it.

But the reality is that we have a long ways to go to realize the full effects of the first maps and I really think that that anything pitched as a way to stimulate even more development should be given low priority. Honestly, I would be happier sinking more money into improving previous projects even further or to help developments that have already started. I just can't look at lower bricktown or all the empty space on the upper canal and think we need to spend more public money to try and get the same half-assed developments that will no doubt be headed by the same half-assers.

I would much rather have a downtown streetcar that linked all of downtown's current assets than extending the canal in the hopes we get more development in an area that is still not full and wasn't developed well to begin with.

[Platemaker]

Agreed... Maps 3 solely streetcar and revamped buses...if that was it I'd be happy.

[jbrown84]

Spreading ourselves too thin, just like C2S if it happened right now. If we can't get our current canal-front properties filled with tenants (or how about even clear of dirt piles), why should we make it three times as long by extending it into barren parking lots?

[metro]

agreed

[OKCRT]

I really want to see a 1st class convention center. I mean 1st class with the ability to expand. This is what will bring tax dollars in to the city and will also spur more business in the area.

I would also like to see the start of a streetcar system downtown.

The canal needs to be extended to the new convention center,Ford Center,Myriad Gardens areas.

My .02 cents

[okclee]

I will be voting NO, on the MAPS 3, canal extenstion. We need to fill in all of the existing canal before expanding. Don't tell me that if there were more canal then the competion would cause the canal to finish itself.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Since it is a foregone conclusion that a new convention center will be built, what happes to the Cox center? At that point it's primary benefit would be a 2nd downtown arena being only 50-some-odd steps from the 1st. An argument could be made for whether-or-not a 2nd arena is enough reason to keep the building, but it is my opinion that it is not the highest and best use (besides, its nearing the end of it's design life).

Currenly, the main barrier between Bricktown is not the railroad tracks but the bleak row of buildings along the west side of EK Gaylord. The Cox is one of those buildings. The Cox is also guilty of the same crime on the east side of the Myriad Gardens. The removal of the Cox center would be an opportunity to connect the more walkable parts of the CBD and the under-utilzed Gardens with Bricktown. This site would also be the ideal location for the canal extension that has been discussed ad naseum. Something like this:



During the Core-to-Shore discussions a commercial/retail development was always located the the south of the Gardens. This development could be moved to the Cox site would open up the car-lots for parkland connecting the Gardens with the new Central Park. The former Cox site then would serve as a pedestrian enhancement rather than detriment as it is now.

[Patrick]

I think there's a need for a 2nd arena downtown. Would be home to the new AHL team, as well as for NCAA women tournament. I can't see demolishing Cox....the building isn't in that bad a shape. It could definitely be renovated for another use though.

[bbhill]

I'm not so sure the Cox center has reached the end of its life yet. I mean, the outside was remodeled fairly recently if I'm not mistaken. Sure, the arena area is pretty dated with all the mirrors and everything, but the inside is pretty open air and it seems like it could be easily renovated. I mean, I'm sure its days are numbered, but I don't particularly see the need to demolish a perfectly functional and often used convention center. Plus, rental prices would probably go significantly down once a new convention center is built, bringing more attractions and events downtown. idk just my 2 cents.

[Thunder]

If the rental prices do go down, then the public school districts should be able to afford a day of graduation. I'm surprised that parents is not protesting the Mid-Del schools to host their graduations at a church.

[Midtowner]

I think there's a need for a 2nd arena downtown. Would be home to the new AHL team, as well as for NCAA women tournament. I can't see demolishing Cox....the building isn't in that bad a shape. It could definitely be renovated for another use though.

True. And the banquet facilities are actually in excellent shape. OU and OCU Law both held their graduations in the upstairs banquet hall this past May. This is a rough guess, but I think there may have been a few thousand people packed into that room. I don't think there are any comparable facilities in OKC, so tearing down at this juncture just wouldn't be prudent.

Now, if we get a Hyatt Regency or something to that effect and the Cox isn't able to compete? Maybe then there'd be a better use for the land. That's at least 15-20 years off though (if ever).

[Patrick]

I agree Midtowner. I mean, the grand ball room is fairly new, an expansion project of MAPS I. And the exhibit halls on the west side and the complete exterior were renovated with MAPS I. The only thing really needed now is to renovate the interior of the arena itself, i.e., new fixtures, seating, etc. Would be a great home to an AHL team, NCAA women's basketball, smaller shows that don't need the large Ford Center arena, and local events in the ballroom like proms, graduations, wedding receptions, etc. It essentially serves as the banquet hall space for the Renaissance Hotel.

[Patrick]

Later I wouldn't mind seeing a Hyatt Regency convention hotel replace parts of the Cox Center.

[Architect2010]

If the rental prices do go down, then the public school districts should be able to afford a day of graduation. I'm surprised that parents is not protesting the Mid-Del schools to host their graduations at a church.

Oklahoma City Public Schools graduate there?

And the southern portion of the Cox needs to be renovated. It looks way outdated, then you walk through a door to the north side and it looks brand spanking new. I don't like that.

[soonerguru]

I have to say, I went to the Addys at the Cox Center this year and thought the banquet facilities were top notch.

I also saw the Lips on New Year's Eve and thought the arena section needs some TLC.

[BDP]

Later I wouldn't mind seeing a Hyatt Regency convention hotel replace parts of the Cox Center.

I agree. If we could land a major convention hotel, that would be a natural spot for it. I would hate to move it too far out of the core.

[megax11]

I'll be voting yes to this wether it's on the maps ballad or not. Our canal sucks compared to San Antonios, which looks very nice.

I want to see this city flourish for the sake of my kids who have to live here. No need to be selfish and think about myself and if it benefits me.

I will also be voting yes on the maps ballad, and will be making sure everyone in my family gets out to vote on both of these projects.

Viva la OKC...

[BDP]

Our canal sucks compared to San Antonios, which looks very nice.

But this proposal doesn't make it better, it just makes it longer. I certainly respect your enthusiasm for the city and for public projects that you feel give it a better and brighter future. I just think that filling in and improving current canal front property is more important than creating more empty canal front property that may or may not be developed in the same way the current property has been.

As it is now, the canal on California still has lots of empty real estate and, in addition to much of the lower half of the canal featuring parking, there is a large canal front property at California and Mikey Mantle that doesn't have anything built on it at all. I just don't see how, at this point, spending more money to create more empty canal space works to improve the canal as a whole.

Ideally, we would fill up and improve what we have, creating an actual demand for more canal front real estate. At that point, maybe then we could provide improvements to other real estate through canal extensions only for developers that promise to respect and acknowledge the public investment into their development and then actually build what they promise.

We don't even have enough demand to fill up the canal real estate we've already created. Building more, imo, would simply be a another recipe for the city letting any developer build anything they want on the new canal space, including parking lots, just to see some sort of return on the public's investment. In addition, it would only further hinder the development and occupation of the current canal space due to further saturation. In the end, we'll just get more of the same, which, as you pointed out, does not compare favorably to similar projects, even within the same region.

[Patrick]

Like with MAPS I, you likely won't get to vote on individual projects. I'm guessing it will be a yes or no vote for the entire package of projects.

[BDP]

I assume the same. It will be interesting to see how its packaged and marketed.