Bricktown losing momentum

[OKCMallen]

Actually the weather in Branson and Kansas City isn't much different from here. Same with Tulsa and Utica Square.

Have you been to Kansas City in December?! Significantly different than here.

[OKCMallen]

You're absolutely insanely crazy if you are opposed to a development like The Grove in Bricktown. We don't necessarily want a mall, but for retail to succeed in Bricktown, we'll need a dense mass with anchors, similar to how a mall is set up. Even San Antonion Riverwalk has a mall with anchors.

I don't want an outdoor mall. I want an entertainment district with enough retail to help attract tourists and provide stability for the area. You can keep your American Eagle in a traditional mall; we don't need it in Bricktown.

As to momentum, etc., I think a solid contributory factor is that leasing prices are too high. Not because I am in the know and have compared them to regional leasing rates, but because of the following logic:

1. Lots of shuttered buildings still that are immedaitely leaseable and usable indicates that people don't think it's financially viable to lease the space.

2. A lack of smaller, individually owned establishments. Why is it so hard to have a small space locally owned? D's Pub I hope makes it, but it's been several things already. Paralogia just opened...it's local I think, right? Other than that, there aren't many smaller, individually owned space in BRicktown. Owners are sitting there waiting to hit a homerun with a big-name (and probably boring and homogenized) tenant to come save the day, I guess? When we fill up like those other developments mentioned above with Chico's Shoes and Dippin Dots, I'll go to Bricktown even less because it will be a soulless, contrived outdoor mall with NOTHING original or unique about it. (BTW, it's my understanding that Dave and Busters often tries to fill existing space as opposed to buidling new buildings....we've discussed it ad nauseum, but it would be a good "homerun" for an owner with a large space in Bricktown.)

In NYC, I can't imagine the leasing is CHEAPER than OKC, yet I went into some nice holes-in-the-wall that managed to survive. We don't have that here because I'm guessing, relative to the market, our leasing rates are too high. E.g.- How long has the Green Door been closed and available to lease? Someone should have been frothing at the bit to get in there, clean up, and takes their chances on opening a new venue.

[Urbanized]

In regards to parking, even The Grove has structured parking which they charge for. In large cities they charge for parking everywhere.

I agree that we don't want a suburban mall in Bricktown. But I think the Bricktown property owners need to band together and work together to attract retail starting with anchor tenants like major department stores. As has been mentioned before, a local bookstore like Full Circle would be a nice start. With 50 Penn not doing well, I'd try to go after Full Circle. Once we get some anchor retailers in place, other smaller retailers will follow suit.

Interesting. The owner of Full Circle Bookstore is one of the most longstanding, prolific and respected property owners in Bricktown. He owns buildings (Glass, Confectionary) that have been substantially leased for years, all finished to a very high quality, buildings originally begun by Neal Horton. He also, by the way, is the driving force behind the Myriad Botanical Gardens Foundation and many other worthwhile endeavors in Oklahoma City.

I'm sure that he has thought often about locating a branch of his first love, Full Circle Books, in Bricktown. I can't speak for him, but I suspect if the numbers worked, it would have happened long ago. Perhaps it will happen in the future, as Bricktown and downtown develop as neighborhoods.

He does, however, supply most of the dozens of Oklahoma book titles found in my store. We even list "Full Circle Bookstore" on our signage listing products carried inside. You're welcome to come visit sometime and see an example of a small, local, reasonably upscale retailer working to make it happen on the canal level in Bricktown.

I'll make you a deal; if you have a personal idea for a quality retail concept that would work on the canal PLUS the financial resources to make it succeed, or know someone who does, I will personally leave no stone unturned in helping in finding canal-front space at a reasonable rent structure. I'm pretty certain we can do it. This is you or anyone you know or personally make contact with that is for real. Not a "you know what they should do down there..." type of thing.

Seriously, the canal is horribly underutilized and has definitely had issues with maintenance and visual appeal. All I can tell you is that improving/leasing the canal has become one of the top issues for the Bricktown Association and director Jim Cowan over the past six months or so, based on personal conversations I have had with him about it. I'm only saying that you can expect the canal to be headed in a direction obviously, measurably OPPOSITE of decline very soon.

As for the rest of Bricktown, I think Steve and some others have made some pretty solid points regarding how much is continuing to happen in Bricktown, even with an economic slowdown. I think you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that the district as a whole is on anything other than a successful track.

[Urbanized]

Also, put me down under the category of folks who don't want to ever see Bricktown become a contrived, Disney-flavored, EIFS-clad candyland with a bunch of generic chain stores.

And, like I said before, I personally think the canal itself is best suited for smaller, local, funkier retail places, restaurants, even a few quirky bars (though no more clubs, thanks), probably in that order. If we can make those happen the rest will come. And I NEVER said that Bricktown in general is not the right place for great destination chain retailers. Crate and Barrel, Urban Outfitters, West Elm? I would absolutely love to see them down here, but think the will be more likely to arrive and thrive in places like the once-proposed Steelyard District. Who knows? I might be wrong on that, and would love to be actually, but I think we have to crawl before we can walk down here and to do that we have to lure some great local, independent retail.

[megax11]

I think we need a longer canal.

The canal in San Antonio is a very good size.

[Pete]

The Grove is a great development but keep in mind there is no business there that is unique. It has a theater chain found all over the LA area, a Nordstrom and a bunch of retailers and restaurants that also have lots of other LA locations. I've lived in SoCal for 20 years and love urban development, yet I've been to The Grove once, and only because an out-of-town friend was staying nearby. I haven't been back and that's been about five years now.

The reason for it's success is it's in the middle of a very dense, high-income population. In fact, Caruso (the developer) has several similar types of developments, mostly in suburban locations.


It's so easy to get around OKC that Bricktown can't merely be for businesses duplicated elsewhere in town. The large percentage of the current Bricktown businesses are unique to that district (at least in the metro) and if that weren't the case, we all know most people would merely just go to the spot closest to their home.

Also, very few chains are going to put their first location (say a Crate & Barrel or Nordstrom) in our downtown with so few people in proximity. And even if they did, they would probably do it with the intention of opening more in the area, and then we are back to the point I made above.


One of the obvious solutions is housing, both in the district and the surrounding areas. There are still only a few hundred (!) people living within walking distance and so you are left with destination restaurants and clubs.

Until we see a bigger development or two in the area (meaning a developer must be willing to make a huge investment and take on substantial risk) and/or we get substantially more people living in the immediate area, I think the district is about at the limits of what it can be.

[OKCMallen]

Pete is probably about right. Need more affordable housing. Funny, when I go to Bricktown and I see people in the bars and restaurants, they're not all 150k+ people...

[dismayed]

I've been to the Grove before. The perma-Farmer's market/food vendors make a really strong anchor for the Grove. Imagine if we have a set up like that in Oklahoma with its agriculture/wine/ranch background. Add a few local food vendors with cheap rent and we'll have a great start.

Unfortunately, I don't think OKC weather can support a fully outdoor mall like the Grove.

I've been to the Grove before too. Very nice place, very upscale, but I agree with other posters it is largely an outdoor mall. Some of that would be cool in Bricktown though.

It's interesting what you said about the Farmer's Markets in California. I have yet to see anything as good as what California does in Oklahoma. And I don't understand why that is given all the agriculture in Oklahoma. Sure we have a Farmer's Market off of I-40, but come on it is nothing like some of the stuff I've seen in LA. Why is that?

[HSC-Sooner]

I've been to the Grove before too. Very nice place, very upscale, but I agree with other posters it is largely an outdoor mall. Some of that would be cool in Bricktown though.

It's interesting what you said about the Farmer's Markets in California. I have yet to see anything as good as what California does in Oklahoma. And I don't understand why that is given all the agriculture in Oklahoma. Sure we have a Farmer's Market off of I-40, but come on it is nothing like some of the stuff I've seen in LA. Why is that?

Californians have some pretty intensive agriculture in the valleys. They may also have better access to exotic produce due to its location.

[bluedogok]

Unfortunately, I don't think OKC weather can support a fully outdoor mall like the Grove.

Why is that? It seems to work fine in Tulsa, two places in Kansas City with the one posted above and Country Club Plaza. Even the majority of higher end shopping is in what would be considered open air shopping districts in Chicago, NYC and Boston and their winters are much worse.

In reality all of the big-box retail centers all over OKC are nothing more than open-air malls and they seem to be doing well for the most part. Weather is nothing more than a lame excuse.

I think we need a longer canal.

The canal in San Antonio is a very good size.

That's because much of it is actually the San Antonio River eventually dumping into Matagorda Bay.

[Luke]

In reality all of the big-box retail centers all over OKC are nothing more than open-air malls and they seem to be doing well for the most part. Weather is nothing more than a lame excuse.

Excellent point.

[Pete]

Why is that? It seems to work fine in Tulsa, two places in Kansas City with the one posted above and Country Club Plaza. Even the majority of higher end shopping is in what would be considered open air shopping districts in Chicago, NYC and Boston and their winters are much worse.

Because OKC is already over-retailed. There was/is a huge open-air development planned for just north of Quail Springs that has been at least stalled because there just isn't the need right now. And when there is, these types of developments are much more likely to go much closer to the people and money.

Back to The Grove and the farmer's market... The market was already there and thriving before the shopping was built. Also -again - there are literally hundreds of farmer's markets all over the L.A. area. And finally, that whole development is no where near the urban core and in fact, there is nothing like it in downtown Los Angeles. They are just now putting in a theater and restaurants near the Staples Center (part of L.A. Live).

I think it's unrealistic to expect retail when you have almost nobody living in the area at present. That is changing, but it will take time.

[bluedogok]

Because OKC is already over-retailed. There was/is a huge open-air development planned for just north of Quail Springs that has been at least stalled because there just isn't the need right now. And when there is, these types of developments are much more likely to go much closer to the people and money.

I was speaking in terms of just an "open-air mall" in response to someone's statement that OKC could not support one and not a Bricktown open air mall in particular. The South Canal area is already developed for the most part, so the it's a moot point anyway.

[proud2Bsooner]

Reading all the great posts here, here is what I think....

It seems that Bricktown has indeed lost some momentum, but that doesn't mean it is dying now. So we need to put our panic buttons aside. And has it has been mentioned, the economic downturn probably has the most to do with the current loss in momentum.

However, Bricktown leadership surely has room to be criticized. There has been a significant amount of construction since 2003. But the growth has been nearly everywhere BUT adjacent to the canal. I think most people envisioned businesses of various kinds that attract people to flock around the canal. After all, the canal is the centerpiece, and can provide a neat atmosphere for folks to walk around and enjoy themselves. But with the North end in particular, there is a lot to be desired.

The area around Chelino's and Zio's, as mentioned, is a nightmare. With such staunch control over the who's, what's, where's and how's of Bricktown, you'd think the leadership could at least better enforce standards of what that North end should look like.

You'd think that someone in this City, like a great restaurant developer (names come to mind), or someone with some good cash, or abilities to get it (more names come to mind), could have had some imagination to do something special with the North (anchor end). That North end should have filled up ten years ago! At least someone with some cash could have hired someone to do it for them. Then when that end fills up, expansion would have gone from there.

Instead, we have expansion all over the place, and some of it (frankly) doesn't fit down there. It just doesn't seem like there is sound direction in Bricktown. I don't know all the ins and outs of why, but the results are clear for everyone to see.

[warreng88]

One thing that people fail to point out is that everywhere else around the country, construction is halting due to the economy. Bricktown has added four new "niche" clubs in the last six months (Michael Murphy's, America's Pub, Brix and Coyote Ugly.) The next area I would love to see revitalized is the area along Main Street. Also, further down Sheridan will probably develop in time due to the Hampton being placed there.

[Caboose]

In hindsight, the canal is pretty half-assed. It should wind all through Bricktown even if it means eliminating auto traffic on many of the streets.

[Patrick]

Have you been to Kansas City in December?! Significantly different than here.

I actually have....when there was snow on the ground and it was frigid outside.

[Patrick]

I think we need a longer canal.

The canal in San Antonio is a very good size.

San Antonio has lengthened theirs when demand has arisen. I don't think we should extend ours until we either have a good development concept for the added length, or we have filled up most of the North Canal and can justify and extension.

[Patrick]

In hindsight, the canal is pretty half-assed. It should wind all through Bricktown even if it means eliminating auto traffic on many of the streets.

I would be in favor of a leg of the canal stretching north on Oklahoma Avenue and then east and west on Main Street. Sheridan is too heavily traveled so I don't think you could replace it.

I also still support taking the canal was the farthest west end of the north canal, south, under the Reno Ave railroad bridge, and west in between the Ford Center and Cox Center...and then into the Myriad Gardens to link up with the ponds there.

[Doug Loudenback]

I would be in favor of a leg of the canal stretching north on Oklahoma Avenue and then east and west on Main Street. Sheridan is too heavily traveled so I don't think you could replace it.

I also still support taking the canal was the farthest west end of the north canal, south, under the Reno Ave railroad bridge, and west in between the Ford Center and Cox Center...and then into the Myriad Gardens to link up with the ponds there.

I would be in favor of a separate thread which does not have such a pessimistic title when discussing Bricktown's successes and our hopes for its future. Bricktown is doing fine and will continue to do so particularly as the economy improves. Other than saying this, I have nothing else to say in a thread which declares, "Bricktown losing momentum," and presumes to know that that is so.

As the title is listed, this thread is for the pessimists. I am not one of them.

[Steve]

Patrick, I have shown this thread to Jim Cowan, director of the Bricktown Association. He has agreed to sit down and discuss/debate these criticisms with you (I'd moderate) for one of my OKC Central videos. If you're interested, if you want one other person in this online discussion to join you, let me know.
This is your chance to let your voice be heard and get your questions and concerns answered directly.
Email me at slackmeyer@oklahoman.com.
-Steve

[Doug Loudenback]

Patrick, I have shown this thread to Jim Cowan, director of the Bricktown Association. He has agreed to sit down and discuss/debate these criticisms with you (I'd moderate) for one of my OKC Central videos. If you're interested, if you want one other person in this online discussion to join you, let me know.
This is your chance to let your voice be heard and get your questions and concerns answered directly.
Email me at slackmeyer@oklahoman.com.
-Steve

I'd like to join the panel so that I can bash Patrick when he gets out of line ... Cowan is much too much of a gentleman to do that ... hence, I offer my services!

[Steve]

Yeah, like I can moderate you....

[Doug Loudenback]

[Luke]

Wow, that's cool, Steve!

As to Doug's point, it might be fair to say that Bricktown is losing momentum. But, it certainly hasn't lost it.

The buildings surrounding the canal in Bricktown proper have so much character and potential, but seem to have been much more stagnant than Lower Bricktown.

After a decade, one would think the potential would have been realized.