Bricktown losing momentum

[Patrick]

the characterization of Bricktown property owners as some sort of faceless, evil, greedy group is dead wrong. Perhaps there was a time when overt avarice played a role in keeping good projects out of Bricktown, but those days are long gone. I think it is a simplistic stereotype that misses the mark.

I agree that not all of the Bricktown property owners are greedy and evil. But, you have to admit, that there have been several investors that have purchased properties, sat on their properties, and then sold them for profit, with me questioning whether their intent was really to develop the properties to begin with.

And, take the Oklahoma Hardware Building for example......it wouldn't take a lot to remove mounds of construction dirt out in front of the basement and landscape the area until they find a tenant. That's called having pride in the property you own.

Also, some of the Bricktown property owners have absolutely no experience leasing out retail space, as evidence by your comment that they won't divide larger spaces. Maybe we'd be better getting the city involved and getting a large retail management company like Simon Property Group or Urban Retail Inc. in to buy up all of the properties to lease out.

And, I could see Bricktown being a perfect fit for an Urban Outfitters.

[Patrick]

I don't recall any mayors, current or former, having personal investments in Bricktown.

Actually, Humphreys used to be a part owner of the Bricktown Parking garage.

Now, could owners bow to the seasonality of the district and create more flexible lease structures that were high in the spring/summer/fall and low to non-existent in the winter? Absolutely. The number one problem I have seen with operators who come down here is a misunderstanding of the severe seasonality of what amounts to an outdoor mall, heavy with tourist and event traffic. They try to apply lessons they learned on Memorial or I-240 or NW Expressway to Bricktown, and it simply doesn't work.

I agree with most of that. But, seasonality doesn't seem to affect other outdoor lifestyle centers like The Legends in Kansas City, KS, The Plaza in Kansas City, MO, Branson Landing, Utica Square, etc.

I think Bricktown requires a more determined, adaptive, resourceful operator than is required to succeed in most places. However, if you can get in sync with the seasonality and event-heavy business available, and offer the crowds what they are looking for, rather than what you think they SHOULD be looking for, the rewards can be fantastic.

I think we need to get a hold of someone experienced in managing one of the above lifestyle centers. The folks we have now obviously have no experience.

[Patrick]

EDIT: Oh, and I would also hope they get rid of all those industrial looking buildings near the rock climbing place, and south of I-40 in downtown... Beef those areas up and make it a part of bricktown. Heck, extend the canal into that area.

Don't count on it. I think they just enlarged the place.

[Patrick]

Just for fun, here are pics of The Grove in LA:

[Patrick]

Here are pictures of The Legends at Village West in Kansas City, KS:

[Thunder]

Bricktown will never be that kool.

[Patrick]

Again, I hate to put down Bricktown, but having been to a lot of these other places, anymore it's just hard to get excited about Bricktown. And this is coming from someone who really used to be enthusastic about Bricktown.

[Patrick]

And finally, pics of Bricktown Landing....ummm...I mean Branson Landing:

[OKCMallen]

Those are simply outdoor malls...? Doesn't seem like that's what we're going for...

[warreng88]

Don't count on it. I think they just enlarged the place.

I remember an article several months back saying the Mills were going to be moving in about five to six years.

[Patrick]

Those are simply outdoor malls...? Doesn't seem like that's what we're going for...

You're absolutely insanely crazy if you are opposed to a development like The Grove in Bricktown. We don't necessarily want a mall, but for retail to succeed in Bricktown, we'll need a dense mass with anchors, similar to how a mall is set up. Even San Antonion Riverwalk has a mall with anchors.

[okcpulse]

You're absolutely insanely crazy if you are opposed to a development like The Grove in Bricktown. We don't necessarily want a mall, but for retail to succeed in Bricktown, we'll need a dense mass with anchors, similar to how a mall is set up. Even San Antonion Riverwalk has a mall with anchors.

Patrick is absolutely right. We need to stop confusing ourselves into believing OKC can't support this kind of development, even in Bricktown. Randy Hogan had the keys to the kingdom. He blew it. What's down there is nice. But we don't need nice, we need awesome. Bricktown's association killed off hopes for such a development over parking concerns. What a joke. Just what in the hell are they holding out for?

[okcpulse]

Patrick, one more thing. I am beginning to wonder if the movers and shakers of OKC are reserving the greatest potential not for Bricktown. Core To Shore, perhaps? Tuscana near Quail Springs Mall will get developed. It will take longer, much in the same way Spring Creek in Edmond happened, but the Tuscana developers are successful in attracting high-end retail for their developments so I have no doubts about Tuscana.

That being said, I applaud you for your stance on constructive criticism for Bricktown. It needs to be more than what it has become. My wife and children will be guests in Bricktown during the first week of June. And you now how I much I love OKC. I am going to look deep into the heart of Bricktown and take my concerns to the Bricktown Association. Luckily, they want to steer in a different direction now. Bars and restaurants are no longer the end-all be-all of a district.

[bluedogok]

You're absolutely insanely crazy if you are opposed to a development like The Grove in Bricktown. We don't necessarily want a mall, but for retail to succeed in Bricktown, we'll need a dense mass with anchors, similar to how a mall is set up. Even San Antonion Riverwalk has a mall with anchors.

Rivercenter Mall has been losing tenants to The Rim (and other places) which is the new "lifestyle center" in North San Antonio. Dillard's closed their Rivercenter store in the old Joske's building last year. San Antonio also has something like a 25 year head start on Bricktown but there are areas on/near the Riverwalk which doesn't look too much different than what Bricktown looked like when I was in OKC in February.

I work in The Domain here in Austin in the Simon owned/controlled portion and it is just as plastic and fake as those pictured above. They power wash the sidewalks every morning and they way they manage office space reeks of mall management, I have no idea if they actually manage the apartment portion. Most of those were greenfield/brownfield developments (The Domain was a former IBM manufacturing facility) which is easy to strip clean and build new. I do agree that the South Canal portion would have been perfect for that type of development but not at all for the North Canal, it needs to develop within itself. I do feel that many of the North Canal owners seem to lack a certain "vision" of what their properties could be. To me Bass Pro would have been better located in the I-40/Meridian area.

When I did the JDM Place building I know that the owner wanted to raise the level of development along the canal and hoped it would spur others to follow suit. I also know that I have been disappointed by the fact the Canal level of that building is still vacant. Since there are constraints like ceiling height in that area I always felt it needed to be some sort of multi-tenant space with place like a convenience store and food court in there would be the best utilization of a difficult space.

[Patrick]

In regards to parking, even The Grove has structured parking which they charge for. In large cities they charge for parking everywhere.

I agree that we don't want a suburban mall in Bricktown. But I think the Bricktown property owners need to band together and work together to attract retail starting with anchor tenants like major department stores. As has been mentioned before, a local bookstore like Full Circle would be a nice start. With 50 Penn not doing well, I'd try to go after Full Circle. Once we get some anchor retailers in place, other smaller retailers will follow suit.

[metro]

Those are simply outdoor malls...? Doesn't seem like that's what we're going for...

I agree, why they are denser developments, they are still outdoor suburban lifestyle centers. Not exactly what we need in our Downtown Core, however sadly it is better than most of what we have in Bricktown or in the rest of the City.

[warreng88]

What I liked about Branson Landing was they had the shops and restaurants on the boardwalk, condos and offices above and big Hilton hotel tied into the whole thing. It was one big free for all. Also, if I remember correctly, there seemed to be a large transit center very close to the whole thing.

[JLCinOKC]

I'm old enough to remember Bricktown as it was before the canal. Anyone else go to Club 508 or The Pyramid in the 80's? Bricktown, while moving slowly, is moving. I went yesterday and walked around. The canal level is a shambles! I would think the City would at least force the property owners to cap off or finish the exposed foundations and bits of dirt!

[hoya]

Of all those locations, only the LA one really impressed me. Kansas City and Branson look nice, but really aren't any different than Bricktown except a higher occupancy rate. I think we've made huge strides in the last 10 years, and it's still growing. I'm not worried.

[Jesseda]

If you built it, they will come

[Patrick]

I think simply filling the empty buildings on the north canal with retail stores and more restaurants would be the best solution. And a nice large building on the empty lot would be nice.

[Platemaker]

The Grove is what Lower Bricktown should have been all along... and it could still happen..... :/

[HSC-Sooner]

The Grove is what Lower Bricktown should have been all along... and it could still happen..... :/

I've been to the Grove before. The perma-Farmer's market/food vendors make a really strong anchor for the Grove. Imagine if we have a set up like that in Oklahoma with its agriculture/wine/ranch background. Add a few local food vendors with cheap rent and we'll have a great start.

Unfortunately, I don't think OKC weather can support a fully outdoor mall like the Grove.

[Luke]

Year Round Bricktown...



By the way, that's Tokyo Disneyland's version of Main Street, USA called World Bazaar.

[Patrick]

Unfortunately, I don't think OKC weather can support a fully outdoor mall like the Grove.

Actually the weather in Branson and Kansas City isn't much different from here. Same with Tulsa and Utica Square.