New Convention Center Study

[BG918]

Ford Center is an arena, not a convention center, although some conventions do use arenas. I totally agree that we need multiple venues, but a large enough, world class convention center could handle this role, and the COX Center could be better used as a mixed use development or transit center.

If they are smart they will include an auditorium in the design of the new convention center, along with the exhibit halls, ballrooms, meeting rooms, kitchen, etc. That way you really wouldn't even need the Cox anymore, except for the Big 12 tournament. In that case they could have all the games in the Ford Center or split between the Ford Center and LNC in Norman, or if OCU was to build a new larger arena.

[BDP]

now saying that's a bad thing, just saying a penny sales tax that never goes away is not really a temporary tax, no matter whose undies you dress it up in

It is temporary, in that we vote a new tax to spent on new assets each time. It's only a de facto permanent tax if we vote for it every single time.

The good thing about doing it this way is that it puts the pressure on the city leaders to propose new things that we feel are needed and makes it more transparent in such a way that we can closely monitor what it is used for.

I think it's debatable whether this is the best way to fund our projects, but it does seem like it has worked in Oklahoma City.

[metro]

If they are smart they will include an auditorium in the design of the new convention center, along with the exhibit halls, ballrooms, meeting rooms, kitchen, etc. That way you really wouldn't even need the Cox anymore, except for the Big 12 tournament. In that case they could have all the games in the Ford Center or split between the Ford Center and LNC in Norman, or if OCU was to build a new larger arena.

That's what I was saying, if (and it should/will be) done right, we won't need the COX Convention Center.

[warreng88]

That way you really wouldn't even need the Cox anymore, except for the Big 12 tournament. In that case they could have all the games in the Ford Center or split between the Ford Center and LNC in Norman, or if OCU was to build a new larger arena.

That first part isn't 100% true. My wife does a lot of event planning for a law firm and she says that there is a need for the CCC, but there is also a need for a larger venue to attract larger conventions. Also, there are always events that can be booked at the CCC that are too big for an auditorium, but too small for the Ford Center like large HS Graduations, smaller concerts, rodeos, etc. Not to mention the Yardawgs and the Blazers are probably going to play there because they can't fill up the Ford Center.

In regards to the second part of your statement, it is great to have two venues right next to each other "58 steps away" where people can gather with the street blocked off and have a good time. If they were to tear down the CCC, build a new one and the Big 12 championship were to be between the Ford Center and OCU's Freede Center, we would lose a lot of the luster with it being so close and with BT being right next door.

[betts]

...a penny sales tax that never goes away is not really a temporary tax, no matter whose undies you dress it up in

Technically, not so far, but it's always an option for the voters not to approve it, so it also cannot be called a permanent tax. If we had a permanent tax that was available to do whatever the city needed, then the plans for its use might not be so well thought out. The fact that the possibility of a tax not being approved always exists, means that the mayor and city council have to determine not only what the city needs, but what the citizens want for the city. I think that's a good thing, as I think a permanent tax might sometimes lead to projects the citizens didn't want. But, so far, I've been really pleased with what my penny has been able to purchase, and I'll probably usually vote "yes".

[John]

The Ford Center will eventually become what the Cox Center is and the Cox Center site will become the site of our 'new' Ford Center. This will happen within 15-20 years.

[OKCisOK4me]

Not to mention the Yardawgs and the Blazers are probably going to play there because they can't fill up the Ford Center.

GOOD!! That means they can take those gay ass black curtains down so when they potato gun t-shirts into Loud City there won't be a chance of them getting stuck up there anymore!!!

[BG918]

The Ford Center will eventually become what the Cox Center is and the Cox Center site will become the site of our 'new' Ford Center. This will happen within 15-20 years.

That would be interesting, and definitely could happen down the road. I'd really like to see the Cox torn down once the new conv. center is built and the street grid restored above the underground parking garage i.e. Broadway extending from Sheridan to Reno and California rebuilt from E.K. Gaylord to Robinson. Then infill that area with mixed-use development creating the flagship TOD in the heart of downtown (assuming Santa Fe is the central hub for commuter rail and LRT).

[John]

That would be interesting, and definitely could happen down the road. I'd really like to see the Cox torn down once the new conv. center is built and the street grid restored above the underground parking garage i.e. Broadway extending from Sheridan to Reno and California rebuilt from E.K. Gaylord to Robinson. Then infill that area with mixed-use development creating the flagship TOD in the heart of downtown (assuming Santa Fe is the central hub for commuter rail and LRT).

Interesting re: restoring the street grid, but I'd like to see the new arena take up the entire block very similar to how the Verizon Center in DC does, with street level retail/dining that creates pedestrian traffic/activity even on non-event nights.

[hoya]

I sincerely apologize in advance, for injecting politics into the discussion, but... are we in agreement? Does it appear that Keynesian economics (i.e., large scale public spending) has a useful purpose and can be an effective tool? Is OKC not much better off due to MAPS? Please don't tell the Laissez-faire righties. It will spoil their dinners. It seems that public spending indeed can spur private investment.

To most righties, there's a big difference between a local tax initiative and a federal spending program. One of the great things about MAPS is that we see the benefits of our tax dollars at work. If it doesn't work, we stop funding it. Most righties don't like massive federal programs where there's no way to determine if it works or fails. "Fighting poverty" or similar missions are so vague and poorly defined that there's no way to determine if they are successful or not. On the other hand, it is easy to see if "build NBA arena" is getting the results we want.

[CuatrodeMayo]

That would be interesting, and definitely could happen down the road. I'd really like to see the Cox torn down once the new conv. center is built and the street grid restored above the underground parking garage i.e. Broadway extending from Sheridan to Reno and California rebuilt from E.K. Gaylord to Robinson. Then infill that area with mixed-use development creating the flagship TOD in the heart of downtown (assuming Santa Fe is the central hub for commuter rail and LRT).

Interesting re: restoring the street grid, but I'd like to see the new arena take up the entire block very similar to how the Verizon Center in DC does, with street level retail/dining that creates pedestrian traffic/activity even on non-event nights.

What COULD be done rather than completely destroy cox, is demolish the exhibition spaces surrounding the arena and replace it with mixed-use structures.

However that leaves us with having to find a new location for the Ford's eventual replacement. Just a thought. I prefer a new arena ala Verizon Center. When I was in DC for the first time, I didn't even notice it was there.

[George]

I would encourage all to read the Brookings study on cities mistakenly investing in convention centers. Blair Humphreys links to this study on his imagiNATIVEamerica.com. (You can find the report at Space Available: The Realities of Convention Centers as Economic Development Strategy - Brookings Institution) Here is part of a comment I made on Blair's site, and will repeat here because I believe it to be relevant to this thread:

The primary question is whether the National Convention Business is even a business OKC wants to be in. This question is so basic and fundamental that we run the risk of ignoring it in our haste to focus on future MAPS spending. The Brookings report highlighted is incredibly insightful and, from a business perspective, outlines the National Convention Business as:

- Having significant overcapacity of supply

- Having significantly decreasing demand

- Requiring huge fixed costs to enter

- Generating ongoing operating losses for almost all participants

Question: What business person would want to enter a market with these characteristics?

I’m concerned that people are starting to equate being a Big League City with making the traditional Big League Mistakes. As the Brookings Report points out, these mistakes have been made consistently by our counterpart cities. Rather than imitating these actions, let’s try to learn from them.

[OSUFan]

I would encourage all to read the Brookings study on cities mistakenly investing in convention centers. Blair Humphreys links to this study on his imagiNATIVEamerica.com. (You can find the report at Space Available: The Realities of Convention Centers as Economic Development Strategy - Brookings Institution) Here is part of a comment I made on Blair's site, and will repeat here because I believe it to be relevant to this thread:

The primary question is whether the National Convention Business is even a business OKC wants to be in. This question is so basic and fundamental that we run the risk of ignoring it in our haste to focus on future MAPS spending. The Brookings report highlighted is incredibly insightful and, from a business perspective, outlines the National Convention Business as:

- Having significant overcapacity of supply

- Having significantly decreasing demand

- Requiring huge fixed costs to enter

- Generating ongoing operating losses for almost all participants

Question: What business person would want to enter a market with these characteristics?

I’m concerned that people are starting to equate being a Big League City with making the traditional Big League Mistakes. As the Brookings Report points out, these mistakes have been made consistently by our counterpart cities. Rather than imitating these actions, let’s try to learn from them.

There are some big flaws with this study. The biggest being the data used for the study is about 10 years old now. The data used was taken during the last recession and after Sept. 11. I don't think data from any industry during that time period gives you a good snapshot of the industry as a whole.

[bdhumphreys]

There are some big flaws with this study. The biggest being the data used for the study is about 10 years old now. The data used was taken during the last recession and after Sept. 11. I don't think data from any industry during that time period gives you a good snapshot of the industry as a whole.

This is from the Brookings website:

"The overall convention marketplace is declining in a manner that suggests that a recovery or turnaround is unlikely to yield much increased business for any given community, contrary to repeated industry projections. Moreover this decline began prior to the disruptions of 9-11 and is exacerbated by advances in communications technology. Currently, overall attendance at the 200 largest tradeshow events languishes at 1993 levels."


I am not saying you are wrong, but Brookings does account for your viewpoint and provide a solid rebuttal. Have you found more current data that shows a different trend?

I am really quite interested in finding facts to base an opinion on - either for or against. If you know where I can find some more reliable information, please let me know. Thus far no one has been able to provide any evidence as to why it is a good idea to build a convention center instead of investing in quality of life components like transportation, public space, etc.

[bdhumphreys]

There are some big flaws with this study. The biggest being the data used for the study is about 10 years old now. The data used was taken during the last recession and after Sept. 11. I don't think data from any industry during that time period gives you a good snapshot of the industry as a whole.

Oh, and the data is only 5 years old - not 10. The most current data available today would be for 2008. This report uses data up to 2003 and information from reports used in 2004.

[Rover]

I tend to believe trade shows are in decline, and that we could be leading edge if we developed spaces around the contemporary ways of doing industry meetings. There is more business "power dating" types of events now and I think OKC could take a lead in providing leading edge conventioning. It would require less space but more communications equipment. There would be auditoriums and many small meeting spaces.

[metro]

Any proof to back up your claim?

[OSUFan]

This is from the Brookings website:

"The overall convention marketplace is declining in a manner that suggests that a recovery or turnaround is unlikely to yield much increased business for any given community, contrary to repeated industry projections. Moreover this decline began prior to the disruptions of 9-11 and is exacerbated by advances in communications technology. Currently, overall attendance at the 200 largest tradeshow events languishes at 1993 levels."


I am not saying you are wrong, but Brookings does account for your viewpoint and provide a solid rebuttal. Have you found more current data that shows a different trend?

I am really quite interested in finding facts to base an opinion on - either for or against. If you know where I can find some more reliable information, please let me know. Thus far no one has been able to provide any evidence as to why it is a good idea to build a convention center instead of investing in quality of life components like transportation, public space, etc.

Try searching for IAEM's Brookings' report rebutal. It gives some good counterpoints to the study. It's been awhile so I can't find an active link to the full report but I know its has to be out there somewhere.

[George]

OSUFan, thanks for suggesting where to look. Here are a couple of critical responses to the Brookings study.

Center for Exhibition Industry Research
White Paper: "Space Available…The Rest of the Story"
http://www.conventionindustry.org/re...s_Response.pdf

"Is the Sky Falling on the Convention Center Industry? A Critical Review of the Brookings Institution Research Brief on Convention Centers as Economic Development Strategy" by Thomas Hazinski and Hans Detlefsen of HVS Convention, Sports, & Entertainment Facilities Consulting (http://www.civicdesigncenter.org/PDF...skiarticle.pdf)

In addition, here is a page with some helpful links organized by the City of Nashville as a basis for discussion regarding the planning of its convention center: Urban Design / Policy Briefs

I would welcome a fact-based discussion on this very important topic...

[bombermwc]

Well right now, we can't deny that conventions are on the downslide. There was even a nice little report this morning on NPR regarding Miami's convention business. Because of the economy and everyone trimming budgets, companies aren't spending the money to attend the events, so many of them are cancelling. Those that are being put on are being downsized, they are forcing discounts from hoteliers and shorter lengths of the conventions (ie fewer days for the show).

It's much like a car dealership right now. How much can you cut just to get the thing sold before you quit making enough off of the thing to survive? Convention business is on a downward trend, HOWEVER....I don't think anyone in OKC can really honeslty believe that the Cox Center is adequate for even our current needs. We are currently limited in space and can't even be considered for a great many shows because our exhibition space is so small. There are countless tradeshows and convention groups that travel the country and make stops in smaller towns (like Baton Rouge) simply because they have a larger exhibition space. Even a town like Shreveport has stolen some of our convention business because their facility is so much nicer (and easier to get to). It's smaller, but it's a nice place...not downtown so there isn't traffic, it's right off the highway, etc.

So while I do agree that the overall trend in the convention industry is on the downslide, I don't feel that it means we should stop our improvement push. Do we need some massive D.C. sized center, No. But what we do need is a facility that accurately reflects what we SHOULD have.