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Thread: OCU wants to move law school downtown

  1. #1

    Default OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Oklahoma City University eyes downtown for law school site
    by Kelley Chambers
    The Journal Record March 6, 2009

    OKLAHOMA CITY – The Oklahoma City University law school has roots downtown, and may one day be headed back there to stay.


    Tom McDaniel, president of Oklahoma City University, is contemplating different options as to how to move the OCU law school downtown. (Photo by Maike Sabolich)

    In looking ahead at the next 20 years of the university’s growth, OCU President Tom McDaniel would like to see the law school permanently move downtown.But the school would have specific terms and ideally partner with a developer or entity that would construct a building that the law school could inhabit and rent.

    McDaniel said the plan is not all that far-fetched, especially as the city looks to develop the area south of downtown over the next decades in the Core to Shore plan. He is not in negotiations with anyone but has made an offer that the law school could pay $1 million a year for the next 50 to 100 years to rent a new space downtown.

    “What that does for us is we don’t have to make a capital outlay and we get a great new facility,” McDaniel said.

    The downtown location is uncertain. McDaniel said he is open to all the options but would prefer to be close to the courthouse. He would consider existing buildings like the First National Center, or the Mid-America Tower, which will largely empty out when Devon Energy leaves for its new tower a few blocks west. Both of those are options, but unlikely.

    “For us, those would both require a substantial investment simply because they’re not configured in a way to accommodate a law library, or a moot courtroom or classrooms,” McDaniel said.

    The university also would move its law library downtown. The law school has an enrollment of 579 for spring 2009, 35 full-time faculty members and 40 adjunct faculty members.

    The first version of the OCU law school was its predecessor, Epworth University, which began a law program in 1907 with 15 students. The program, then part of OCU, became defunct in the early 1930s.

    Over the next decades several law programs popped up around the city, including the Oklahoma City College of Law, which was based downtown at the YMCA building on NW Second Street.

    In 1952, OCU purchased the Oklahoma City College of Law and it remained at the YMCA building. The law school was moved on campus in 1956 and shared the Gold Star building. Three years later, it was moved into old barracks on the north side of campus. Two of those barracks were combined into the law building through the 1960s and 1970s.

    The law school moved back to the Gold Star building in 1979, and in 1994 the Sarkeys Law Center opened facing NW 23rd Street.

    McDaniel said there is the potential to expand the law school to the north by knocking down old dormitories, but he hopes the next move will be into a permanent home downtown.

    Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett has talked with McDaniel, and leaders of other schools, about bringing educational institutions downtown. Several schools already offer night courses and MBA programs downtown.

    “It lends great vibrancy to your downtown if you can have a larger university setting,” Cornett said. “You want young urban professionals feeling at home downtown.”

    But Cornett said the city will work with every university that might consider downtown and is not playing favorites with OCU.

    “They have expressed an interest in bringing the law school downtown,” he said. “That being the case, we are interested in trying to make that happen if we can.”

  2. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    I could have sworn Mid said this would not happen.

  3. #3

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Fantastic idea for both downtown and OCU.

    I know that law center is relatively new but I'm sure it could be used for other classes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    The Sarkey's Center was funded in large part by OCU alumni. It would be surprising to see the building, which was built to meet acredidation standards and the specific needs of the law school and community, abandoned for a more downtown location. It is not like it is that far away as it is. It has a large moot court room as well as a smaller one, and is right next door to the law library. Parking is always a problem but I wonder if sending it downtown would make a difference.

    I hadn't heard that this was on the boards but I will ask around with some people who might know.

  5. #5

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    I am an OCU alum and I had heard several years ago that they were going to tear down Walker hall and build another Law building connecting the library and the other building but I guess this proposal puts all that to rest...

  6. #6

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Here's another great article on the subject:

    The Journal Record - Article

  7. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    I don't see the point for the law school, honestly. However, this would be very beneficial to downtown, so I like the idea! Also, I suppose it allows other facets of OCU to grow besides the law school.

    Parking is NOT a problem, you just actually have to walk a little and it IS a university- walking is expected. You might park over by the nursing school, but never, not once, did I ever NOT have a space.

  8. #8

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by CuatrodeMayo View Post
    I could have sworn Mid said this would not happen.
    I'd be really surprised, but now less so.

    The trend in Oklahoma's private law schools has been downsizing in order to boost rankings. TU just cut its law school by quite a bit. I do think that in this economy and with the overcrowded state of the profession, OCU would probably be smart to upgrade its 'coolness factor' by locating downtown, eliminating the need of students to own cars while also shrinking its numbers. That sort of move, no doubt, would boost the rankings.

    It's not like we're hurting over here, we still turn down more than half of our applicants, but I've recently found the school's decision to buy billboards, etc. to be pretty unnecessary and cast the school in something of a negative light (you don't see any other law school billboards).

    As far as the cost goes, I don't think OCU will have a problem financing a move like this. They do much better than breaking even -- a law degree will run pretty close to six-figures right now with the degree being 90 hours @ (currently) $975/credit hour.

    Proximity to the courthouses, I think is no big deal. It's not like the D.A. or P.D. are short on legal interns at the moment, and it's not like federal clerkships are going unfilled. What something like this might spur would be more law firms moving downtown in order to take advantage of law students and legal interns being readily available (cheap labor).

    A move right now, I think, in the long run, might be good for the school. I just have a hard time seeing them abandoning the current facilities which are still fairly new.

  9. #9

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    I know they recently added a school of theology, I wonder if that could be housed in the law building whenever it is vacated?

  10. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    I'd be really surprised, but now less so.

    The trend in Oklahoma's private law schools has been downsizing in order to boost rankings. TU just cut its law school by quite a bit. I do think that in this economy and with the overcrowded state of the profession, OCU would probably be smart to upgrade its 'coolness factor' by locating downtown, eliminating the need of students to own cars while also shrinking its numbers. That sort of move, no doubt, would boost the rankings.

    It's not like we're hurting over here, we still turn down more than half of our applicants, but I've recently found the school's decision to buy billboards, etc. to be pretty unnecessary and cast the school in something of a negative light (you don't see any other law school billboards).

    As far as the cost goes, I don't think OCU will have a problem financing a move like this. They do much better than breaking even -- a law degree will run pretty close to six-figures right now with the degree being 90 hours @ (currently) $975/credit hour.

    Proximity to the courthouses, I think is no big deal. It's not like the D.A. or P.D. are short on legal interns at the moment, and it's not like federal clerkships are going unfilled. What something like this might spur would be more law firms moving downtown in order to take advantage of law students and legal interns being readily available (cheap labor).

    A move right now, I think, in the long run, might be good for the school. I just have a hard time seeing them abandoning the current facilities which are still fairly new.
    It's way worse than that, actually. OCU uses the law school to help subsidize other parts of the university that are always in the red (labs, etc). Lots of school do this.

    OCU has a lot of work to do to habilitate its ranking...a LOT. And I'm betting that cutting admissions is NOT what is going to happen... Also, there's a reason that so many people apply to OCU and half get rejected... But that's for a different thread.

  11. #11

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCMallen View Post
    OCU has a lot of work to do to habilitate its ranking...a LOT.
    That's all assuming they actually want to do the things necessary to rehabilitate the ranking. Don't get me wrong, I think the education here is fine, and coupled with what I'm learning in my internship, I'll be good to go. I don't think there's an issue with the quality of education here, but yeah, the school has some huge issues, tuition price being a biggie.

  12. #12

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    It's not like we're hurting over here, we still turn down more than half of our applicants, but I've recently found the school's decision to buy billboards, etc. to be pretty unnecessary and cast the school in something of a negative light (you don't see any other law school billboards).
    Mid, agreed on the billboards. Any chance you complained about it to the powers that be?

  13. #13

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    None. I'm going to get my degree and start making money. I'm sure that the powers that be know how tacky this is, but they obviously don't care. It's about as tacky as charging a lot more than anyone else in the state while also being the lowest ranked school in the state. Our Bar passage rates are always up there, so the quality of education is there, but no one here seems to be overly concerned with image.

  14. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    None. I'm going to get my degree and start making money. I'm sure that the powers that be know how tacky this is, but they obviously don't care. It's about as tacky as charging a lot more than anyone else in the state while also being the lowest ranked school in the state. Our Bar passage rates are always up there, so the quality of education is there, but no one here seems to be overly concerned with image.
    Which is a shame because image/ranking, while arguably superficial quanta, are very important to the school's success and the ability of students to work outside of OKC. Try to get a job in Dallas with an OCU degree that will service your student loans...it ain't easy.

    Truly they're doing a disservice to the students. There are wholesale changes that need to be made from when I was there to the recent upheaval regarding Prof. Johnson's lawsuit. I'd like to see President McDaniel's influence increased over the law school. The downtown move could be a pretty cool way to start fresh.

  15. #15

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCMallen View Post
    Truly they're doing a disservice to the students. There are wholesale changes that need to be made from when I was there to the recent upheaval regarding Prof. Johnson's lawsuit. I'd like to see President McDaniel's influence increased over the law school. The downtown move could be a pretty cool way to start fresh.
    I agree with all of the above.

    And Professor Johnson is a great lady. If she's alleging that stuff happened, I don't doubt that it did although some of the things alleged, e.g., the book club, were kind of silly.

    For me, OCU was mostly about location. I wanted to work in my father's law practice through law school, have a good private practice internship and form a relationship with our clients. For me, OCU makes a lot of financial sense. That said, I doubt there are many people in my situation. I had the grades to transfer to OU (or just about anywhere), but I stuck it out.

    Considering the amount of money the school has made off of me, the likelihood that they'll ever see any alumni support from me is pretty small.

  16. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    I'm a fan of Danne, myself.

  17. #17

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    A lot of people can work and go to OCU who wouldn't be able to do that at OU. It provides a route for many working students, especially the ones already supporting a family.

  18. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    As an OCU alum (not law school), most students won't even care. The law students typically have zero interaction with the rest of the student body anyway. It's not like they ever use any other part of the campus besides the law library. It's a great way for the campus to gain another building that could easily be renovated for other purposes.

    The business school used to have classes downtown and consolidated back to campus.

    If it were OU, I could see it as being a good move...having a campus closer in town. But with OCU only being a couple miles up the road, it just seems completely stupid. Are those few miles that much to drive? Are those couple hundred feet to walk to your car that much? Think about the elevator time and walking you'll do downtown. Not to mention the time it takes to get OUT of downtown. And is a single comparatively small structure going to make any difference? Probably not.

    The budget issues aren't even really relevant. It's not up to the students to decide tutition. OCU has never apologized for it's tuition rate, not should it. The formula has been good for the school since McDaniel took over and it's allowing the school to grow physically and programatically. And since overall enrollment is steady, there just isn't an arguement to decrease it.

  19. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    As an OCU alum (not law school), most students won't even care. The law students typically have zero interaction with the rest of the student body anyway. It's not like they ever use any other part of the campus besides the law library. It's a great way for the campus to gain another building that could easily be renovated for other purposes.

    The business school used to have classes downtown and consolidated back to campus.

    If it were OU, I could see it as being a good move...having a campus closer in town. But with OCU only being a couple miles up the road, it just seems completely stupid. Are those few miles that much to drive? Are those couple hundred feet to walk to your car that much? Think about the elevator time and walking you'll do downtown. Not to mention the time it takes to get OUT of downtown. And is a single comparatively small structure going to make any difference? Probably not.

    The budget issues aren't even really relevant. It's not up to the students to decide tutition. OCU has never apologized for it's tuition rate, not should it. The formula has been good for the school since McDaniel took over and it's allowing the school to grow physically and programatically. And since overall enrollment is steady, there just isn't an arguement to decrease it.
    Well, which is it?

  20. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    Seems like a good idea to me.
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  21. #21

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    I agree...

    Also, bomber, I think you're missing the entire point of them moving downtown. It's not about convenience, it's about image.

  22. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    It's a great way to create room on-campus at OCU since there's really not room to grow laterally. It's a great way for them to invest in downtown OKC. It's a great way to maintain a higher presence amongst law firms to hire students. It's a great way to expose students to the practice of law and not just the theory. It's a great way to get out of the pretty-on-the-outside-but-woeful-on-the-inside law library.

  23. #23

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    I wish their students well, wherever the admin. elects to soak them at. 8^)

  24. Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    I guess I wasn't real clear OKCMallen. I'm not really in favor of it. My first point was to say, it frees up a building on campus. But that's not really a huge benefit to me. It never takes long to get enough donations to build something on that campus. Plus OCU doesn't build until they have all the money for a project, unlike other schools that build on credit.

    As for image...OCU is an educational institution held to the highest degree. A degree from OCU is worth a lot around here. As for the law school, they've had problems getting folks past the exam and then really being good lawyers. Do I care though....no not really. Why is that? Because like I said before, the law school has ZERO interaction with the rest of campus. A regular campus student can't really have an attachment to something that doesn't ever interact with them. Even the folks that do pre-law on campus often don't really come back onto campus for anything. The roll into that corner of campus and park, go to class, and roll back out. They don't attend events outside of their own buildings, they don't go to the Union, etc. So even if it didnt exist all together, I don't think much of the campus would really care that much.

    Besides that, we're talking a small number of students, therefore a small impact wherever they go. Like I said before, they're more likely to be a minor contributor no matter what part of C2S they go to. OCU won't own the building as McDaniel said, so it won't have much influence on what it looks like. It's basically going to be office space occupied by a law school...just like it was when it was downtown. It's not exciting, it's not fancy, it's just an office tenant.

  25. #25

    Default Re: OCU wants to move law school downtown

    with 500+ students + faculty roaming around downtown and adding to the diversity....

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