The Abortion Issue

[traxx]

Six pages deep . . . still going strong . . . nothing new . . . I'll check back later.

Michael

Pray For World Peace . . . pass it on

You start a thread and then it doesn't live up to your standards so you'll just let everyone else fight it out so you can check back when it's resolved. What'd you expect.

You're so above the fray.

[GWB]

You start a thread and then it doesn't live up to your standards so you'll just let everyone else fight it out so you can check back when it's resolved. What'd you expect.

You're so above the fray.

Maybe he's busy praying for World Peace.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

You start a thread and then it doesn't live up to your standards so you'll just let everyone else fight it out so you can check back when it's resolved. What'd you expect.

You're so above the fray.

I had no expectations then and still don't traxx. This discussion was taking place on another thread I started on a different topic. And though there was some connection to that other topic, the discussion I hoped to have was being inappropriately overwhelmed by a discussion of abortion, so I started this thread.

The purpose of the post I made and you quoted was simply to state my view. If you took it as being off-handed or flippant, please know that was not my intention. I just haven't read any new ideas or arguments that lead me to alter my moral, ethical or intellectual position on this issue, which is that abortion is a tragic outcome to the bad decision or unfortunate circumstance that led to pregnancy, but that the state does not have the authority to dictate what personal rights a pregnant woman has or doesn't have. I further believe that the state's resources and the time of our elected officials would be better spent working to improve the quality of life for all of our people through better education and healthcare and that religion cannot be for protecting the life of an unborn person and not hold the same position for all human life.

I see people posting here with strongly held beliefs and take it on face value that they have given this topic as much consideration as I have and would be open to further evaluation of their stance if they were so moved by something they heard or read. I value all of the opinions expressed here and try to make no personal judgments and to refrain from personal attacks.

Every post I have made to this forum is still here and available to being reread, and if they were, you would see that I have not always been successful and staying away from comments I would rather take back. For quite a while now, I have chosen to sign my name to my posts and it has caused me to be more thoughtful about what I write here.

Maybe he's busy praying for World Peace.

I have also chosen to add "Pray For World Peace . . . pass it on" to all my posts. Though I currently do not attend any church or ascribe to any particular religious faith, I truly believe in the value of pray in enriching my personal well being. Every time I type Pray For World Peace . . . pass it on, I consider it a prayer in ever sense. I also believe in the power of advertising and every time anyone reads any post I make with "Pray for World Peace . . . pass it on" at the bottom, it is a tiny commercial for the idea of World Peace.

Michael Smith

Pray For World Peace . . . pass it on

[USG '60]

Wonderful post, Michael.

[AFCM]

Whatever your position may be, I support your right to express it. Just try not to get stopped driving in OKC with a sign that reads, "Abort Obama, Not the Unborn".

Anti-Abortion Sign Nets Traffic Stop, Secret Service Visit - Oklahoma City News Story - KOCO Oklahoma City

[Thunder]

I am sharing that story nationally.

ACTION TO PROTEST OKC POLICE

Complete with the department address and phone contact.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I am sharing that story nationally.

ACTION TO PROTEST OKC POLICE

Complete with the department address and phone contact.

Thunder, do you think this incident displays some kind of pro-Democrat or pro-Obama leaning by this police officer or do you see it as strictly over reaching by an individual or a hair-trigger misperceived national security threat response, or what? All in all, it's pretty lame when it went beyond the officer just stopping the guy, doing a field interview and letting it go at that. But I guess it will also get a lot of play in the conservative talk realm.

Looking at it from a slightly different angle, it is also easy to draw a parallel between this stop and Tim McVey getting pulled over because the license tag fell off of his car. Police stop motorists and make a lot of contacts with citizens in many different ways and often it is just the dumb assed behavior that criminals tend to display that leads to their arrest. What if the guy had actually been a real whacko with some serious plans? Then we would all be applauding this officer's sterling performance.

Certainly, the total police response to this got out of hand and was way over the top.



There are a lot of points that can be made and discussed about this and it could easily have been posted as a new thread rather than muddying this topic's water with this unrelated information.

Michael

Pray For World Peace . . . pass it on

[andy157]

I am sharing that story nationally.

ACTION TO PROTEST OKC POLICE

Complete with the department address and phone contact.

Why dont you attend the next meeting of the OKC City Council and voice your concerns to them in public?

[Thunder]

Why dont you attend the next meeting of the OKC City Council and voice your concerns to them in public?

OKC wouldn't want to waste their money for an interpreter.

[andy157]

OKC wouldn't want to waste their money for an interpreter.

Then you dont know much about The City of OKC. Here is my interpretation; I'll anonymously complain, criticize, and claim my rights have been violated, but, I will not do the same in public where in order to do so would require that I reveal my face, my address, and the city in which I reside.

Possible reasons for your justification; I guess when you look at from the cops point of view, I understand why he stopped the guy maybe. I mean after all it's not really that big of a deal. I mean lets be honest the guy really shouldn't drive around like that. Plus, I mean it's not like he went to jail, or got a ticket. No harm, no foul.

[MadMonk]

Expressing your freedom of speech with a bumper sticker is not the same thing as driving around without a licence on your car.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Expressing your freedom of speech with a bumper sticker is not the same thing as driving around without a licence on your car.

No argument from me on that MadMonk.

Police officers are trained to take note of things they see that are (in their estimation) out of the ordinary . . . what the guy did attracted the attention of the police. Whether it should have or not is a whole other discussion . . . but obviously it attracted the attention of this officer and he did a field interview . . . perfectly normal. Confiscating the guy's sign and calling Secret Service was a little over the top.

My point was that this police officer was doing his normal thing and if the guy in the car had been a total nut bag with a sawed off shotgun in his back seat we would all be saying "great piece of police work" rather than raking him over the coals. He definitely over reacted.

Michael

Pray For World Peace

[Thunder]

The cop asked him questions, but I don't think the cop searched the truck. So, without searching for the truck, it wasn't warranted to contact SS. I think that this guy have some grounds to sue the department.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

The cop asked him questions, but I don't think the cop searched the truck. So, without searching for the truck, it wasn't warranted to contact SS. I think that this guy have some grounds to sue the department.

Who's stopping him?

Michael

Pray For World Peace

[willy_p19]

Life can be characterized by the inherent capability to grow, have a metabolism, react to external and internal stimuli and eventually to reproduce.

I've been quietly awaiting a regardful response to my question towards Prunepicker. I'll iterate: Can you provide evidence of a zygote, blastocyst, or embryo reacting to any stimuli? If not, how do you reconcile calling it life? Just how do you determine the capacity for 'eventual reproduction' of a cluster of cells?

[Prunepicker]

I've been quietly awaiting a regardful response to my question towards
Prunepicker. I'll iterate: Can you provide evidence of a zygote, blastocyst, or
embryo reacting to any stimuli? If not, how do you reconcile calling it life?
Just how do you determine the capacity for 'eventual reproduction' of a
cluster of cells?

Willy,
I'm sorry for missing your post, or posts.
All of the above mentioned entities respond to stimuli. Also, by watching
under a microscope you can see them move, or react, to various forms of
stimuli. This is something scientists have viewed in the classroom as well as
in the lab.

[BossLady]

I'll just say one thing.. I will never go to Il Dolce Gelato again. Besides, they gelato sucks there.

[USG '60]

I'll just say one thing.. I will never go to Il Dolce Gelato again. Besides, they gelato sucks there.

And it's spiked with LSD ......evidently.

[betts]

This is an unresolvable argument. The Supreme Court can say when they think life begins. Each of us can as well. All of them are opinions. The Bible doesn't tell us. Short of God coming down from on high to give us the only answer, we opine.

Abortion is neither black nor white, and for the people who cannot see shades of grey, it's an easy answer. For the rest of us, it's a decision we wish no one ever had to make. However, life is never that simple. We and our government have to make the best decisions we can, and live with the results of those decisions.

If we say people cannot legally have abortions, some will have them illegally and will die or suffer serious complications. Children will be born who have only a short miserable life and a miserable death to look forward to. Women will have to carry the fruits of rape and incest for 9 long months and risk their lives to have those babies. None of those are good things. On the other hand, life is probably life from the moment of conception, and babies are aborted who had the potential for a long and happy life. Not a good thing either. So we muddle through and compromise is probably the only decent solution for all of us.

[Prunepicker]

More have died from "safe" abortions than not. The number would
significantly drop if abortions were made illegal.

I believe each unwanted child should have a trial by jury and all of the
necessary appeals to see if a crime worthy of the death penalty has been
committed.

[RealJimbo]

This is an unresolvable argument. The Supreme Court can say when they think life begins. Each of us can as well. All of them are opinions. The Bible doesn't tell us. Short of God coming down from on high to give us the only answer, we opine.

Abortion is neither black nor white, and for the people who cannot see shades of grey, it's an easy answer. For the rest of us, it's a decision we wish no one ever had to make. However, life is never that simple. We and our government have to make the best decisions we can, and live with the results of those decisions.

If we say people cannot legally have abortions, some will have them illegally and will die or suffer serious complications. Children will be born who have only a short miserable life and a miserable death to look forward to. Women will have to carry the fruits of rape and incest for 9 long months and risk their lives to have those babies. None of those are good things. On the other hand, life is probably life from the moment of conception, and babies are aborted who had the potential for a long and happy life. Not a good thing either. So we muddle through and compromise is probably the only decent solution for all of us.

In my opinion, it is this kind of mealy-mouthed waffling that has brought about a huge portion of our current societal ills. Apparently you didn't bother to check the Bible before you made the decision that it doesn't (therefore God doesn't) have anything to say about when life begins. In Psalm 139, God makes it VERY clear that a life exists EVEN BEFORE conception. How can this be? Don't ask me, ask GOD. He has made the whole process of birth so miraculous that in my opinion, and even science - that of statistics - agrees with me, there is no pregnancy that is a mistake. That's because it takes God to bring about conception.

OK, now bring out the athiests who look down their noses at those of us who believe in one all-powerful God who made us and everything else in the universe. But non-believers do no better job explaining the universe than do believers. In fact, it takes more "faith" to accept most of their explanations than it does to accept God's omnipotence.

And so, which position, pro-abortion or anti-abortion costs the most lives? You can't really believe that anti-abortion costs more lives since abortions end millions of lives every year in America. God forgive us all.

[Bunty]

So we, as a society, need to grasp, once and for all, before God Almighty, that by far, without a doubt, that the people who are really most important of all to the world are all who are unborn? If so, why not treat each fetus as a God?

[Hammondjam]

In my opinion, it is this kind of mealy-mouthed waffling that has brought about a huge portion of our current societal ills. Apparently you didn't bother to check the Bible before you made the decision that it doesn't (therefore God doesn't) have anything to say about when life begins. In Psalm 139, God makes it VERY clear that a life exists EVEN BEFORE conception. How can this be? Don't ask me, ask GOD. He has made the whole process of birth so miraculous that in my opinion, and even science - that of statistics - agrees with me, there is no pregnancy that is a mistake. That's because it takes God to bring about conception.

OK, now bring out the athiests who look down their noses at those of us who believe in one all-powerful God who made us and everything else in the universe. But non-believers do no better job explaining the universe than do believers. In fact, it takes more "faith" to accept most of their explanations than it does to accept God's omnipotence.

And so, which position, pro-abortion or anti-abortion costs the most lives? You can't really believe that anti-abortion costs more lives since abortions end millions of lives every year in America. God forgive us all.

So therefore it's God that causes overpopulation and foster kids that NEVER get to stay in one home long enough to bond with a set of parents. Where is God when little kids get abused and neglected, tortured and raped? Are we like sea turtles? Does he get us to the water and then we're on our own? BTW, we all die in the end so what's the problem with ending one before it starts?. Skip the earthly pain and go straight to heaven.

I don't look down my nose at believers...you can have your beliefs. That's your protected right. What I want is for believers to keep their heavenly laws out of the legislative branch of government since there's basically a god on every corner in this world.

[PennyQuilts]

So therefore it's God that causes overpopulation and foster kids that NEVER get to stay in one home long enough to bond with a set of parents. Where is God when little kids get abused and neglected, tortured and raped? Are we like sea turtles? Does he get us to the water and then we're on our own? BTW, we all die in the end so what's the problem with ending one before it starts?. Skip the earthly pain and go straight to heaven.

I don't look down my nose at believers...you can have your beliefs. That's your protected right. What I want is for believers to keep their heavenly laws out of the legislative branch of government since there's basically a god on every corner in this world.

Having worked with many foster children, I honestly can't say that they have a fate worse than death and I wouldn't suggest "putting them out of their misery" even if that were an option. People say that sort of thing all the time but it doesn't make sense unless they think we should just exterminate the victims of all the horrible things you just mentioned. And btw, should we also exterminate the "wanted" children who end up in foster care or are abused? (You do realize that the vast number of foster kids and abused children were wanted, don't you?) I don't think so and you don't either. It is an empty argument, no matter how often it is used.

But I do agree with you that the legislature needs to stay out of the religion business.

[rcjunkie]

So we, as a society, need to grasp, once and for all, before God Almighty, that by far, without a doubt, that the people who are really most important of all to the world are all who are unborn? If so, why not treat each fetus as a God?

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