The Abortion Issue

[Midtowner]

No one is ever going to persuade someone else on this subject.

Why bother discussing at all? What has changed about it?

I sooooo hate to see abortion talked about in a political context. It's a wedge issue which any politician who has the remotest clue about how the three branches of government work knows "solving" this thing is above his pay grade. The only reason they bring it up at all is to get people who don't know any better riled up.

If a politician at the state level or lower is bringing up abortion, either he's a cynical SOB who thinks you're a moron or he doesn't have enough of a grasp on the political process to be fit to serve.

[Prunepicker]

I have never understood this viewpoint. Why someone would think it was okay to
kill a baby in the womb but want a murderer to live.

That's why I'm anti-abortion and not pro life. If somebody has been proven by a
jury to deserve the death penalty, then I'm all for it.

I believe each child, some say fetus, should have the right to appear before a jury
before the death sentence is given. THEN they should have the right to appeal
whatever decision is made.

[PennyQuilts]

So euthenasia is wrong too? When every doctor says that someone has no chance of recovery you still would never pull the plug? That just sounds idiotic to me. Allow someone to pass on with dignity. If I were ever in a vegetative state, the last thing I would want is to drag on a slow painful death and be a constant and horrible burden on my family and friends.

You didn't even read my post, did you?

The same way you murder someone who has had a terrible accident and needs life support to give them time to heal.

The fact pattern was that the person simply needed time to heal. Nothing was said about someone who was dying or brain dead. Euthanasia had nothing to do with the fact pattern I gave.

[bandnerd]

No one is ever going to persuade someone else on this subject.

Why bother discussing at all? What has changed about it?

I sooooo hate to see abortion talked about in a political context. It's a wedge issue which any politician who has the remotest clue about how the three branches of government work knows "solving" this thing is above his pay grade. The only reason they bring it up at all is to get people who don't know any better riled up.

If a politician at the state level or lower is bringing up abortion, either he's a cynical SOB who thinks you're a moron or he doesn't have enough of a grasp on the political process to be fit to serve.

Agreed. There are some things that people will never agree on or be persuaded on. It has too many personal ties for so many for someone to just say, "oh, I was wrong." It just doesn't happen that way.

That said, I am a woman and I am pro-choice. I don't know if I could personally ever go through with it, but I think the option should be there when needed. Not as a birth control method, but there are cases when I am certainly ok with it.

[Prunepicker]

Agreed. There are some things that people will never
agree on or be persuaded on...

... and I am one of them, who by the way, that was taught by a woman that
abortion, under any circumstance, is wrong.

[Prunepicker]

So euthenasia is wrong too? When every doctor says that someone has no
chance of recovery you still would never pull the plug?

Every doctor? I think not.

And yes, euthanasia is wrong. Period.

[Midtowner]

... and I am one of them, who by the way, that was taught by a woman that
abortion, under any circumstance, is wrong.

Is that sort of like how having black friends insulates you from being called a racist?

C'mon, what kind of reasoning is that?

[Prunepicker]

Is that sort of like how having black friends insulates you from being called a racist?

C'mon, what kind of reasoning is that?

Not at all, it was used by bandnerd, she said she's a woman, to justify something
so I simply used it for the same reason. I think it's supposed to give credence to
one's beliefs.

lol...

[Midtowner]

It seems that you were more-less validating her belief that her opinion matters more because of her gender when you brought a woman who taught you something into the mix.

-- just sayin'

[onthestrip]

You didn't even read my post, did you?

The fact pattern was that the person simply needed time to heal. Nothing was said about someone who was dying or brain dead. Euthanasia had nothing to do with the fact pattern I gave.

Sorry, totally misunderstood that the first time.

But come on prunepicker, whats the reasoning to be against euthanasia?

[PennyQuilts]

Sorry, totally misunderstood that the first time.

But come on prunepicker, whats the reasoning to be against euthanasia?

No problem - thanks.

[Prunepicker]

It seems that you were more-less validating her belief that her opinion matters
more because of her gender when you brought a woman who taught you
something into the mix.

-- just sayin'

Not exactly. The gist is that it doesn't matter what sex you are or how you
arrived to the conclusion of your opinion. In other words, a woman's opinion is no
more valid than a man's. However, some believe one or the other is.

[OKCMallen]

No one is ever going to persuade someone else on this subject.

Why bother discussing at all? What has changed about it?

Mid, you constantly opine on tons of threads without changing people's minds. We're sharing ideas here. That's a good thing.

[bandnerd]

I was just throwing the female part in there in case someone didn't know. Just to clarify. I have a ******.

[USG '60]

The whole issue would be made moot, I believe, if we passed laws to facilitate getting "unwanted" children to parents who DID want them. Start with declaring that anything growing inside a woman belongs to her and her alone. Then set up a system where in any woman who finds herself not wanting to deliver a baby (for whatever reason) can register that she will have a kid ready to deliver in x months and that it will be available to the highest bidder or the person who impresses her most favorably. Intersted parties can contact her and they can make any deal that is agreeable to both parties. No need whatever for gov't intervention. If you feel that there is just something obsene about that thought, please go back and think it all the way through, backward, forward and sideways and I think you will see that it will do what all of our laws, bureaus, committees, and so forth claim to be trying to do, but MUCH more elegantly. The fact that such a system is needed is very sad and somehow obsene, but the way things are is the alternative. This would be a huge blessing to those who hate the thought of any abortions in that they could put their money where their mouths are and with no hassle. So if the gov't will set up the system and get back and let it roll, everyone on both sides can be contented knowing that there were no longer any unwanted children in the country.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I have never understood this viewpoint. Why someone would think it was okay to kill a baby in the womb but want a murderer to live. You're equating Tim McVeigh with an unborn child whose future is yet to be seen. McVeigh made his choice. . . . .

I wasn't equating the life of an unborn child with anything traxx, nor did I suggest that criminals be set free if you are also confused about my view of that. What's the point in twisting what someone posts to try and justify your argument? And, BTW, McVeigh was an unborn child pretty early on. If he had been aborted; no Murrah bombing . . . so would abortion be OK if we could read the tea leaves and know what lies in the future. What is the difference between snuffing Tim as a fetus or as a convicted mass murderer.

Simply put, I don't believe that I or the state has the right to take another life for any reason except in the rare case of self defense . . . there are lots of scenarios that describe those situations and no point in going into that black hole here.

In case you hadn't heard the vast majority of the rest of civilization on this planet also opposes the death penalty and uses life in prison as the maximum punishment.

IMO there are rare cases where abortion is appropriate, but not as birth control. But, that's none of the state's business either.

You either believe that life is sacred or you don't . . . how can there be some half-way position where one life has value and another doesn't? Isn't the teaching of about every religion pretty much that god, however you conceive of god, makes the call not man.

Michael

Pray For World Peace . . . pass it on

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I was just throwing the female part in there in case someone didn't know. Just to clarify. I have a ******.

Well thank God it's not a clown car!

The whole issue would be made moot, I believe, if we passed laws to facilitate getting "unwanted" children to parents who DID want them. Start with declaring that anything growing inside a woman belongs to her and her alone. Then set up a system where in any woman who finds herself not wanting to deliver a baby (for whatever reason) can register that she will have a kid ready to deliver in x months and that it will be available to the highest bidder or the person who impresses her most favorably. Intersted parties can contact her and they can make any deal that is agreeable to both parties. No need whatever for gov't intervention. If you feel that there is just something obsene about that thought, please go back and think it all the way through, backward, forward and sideways and I think you will see that it will do what all of our laws, bureaus, committees, and so forth claim to be trying to do, but MUCH more elegantly. The fact that such a system is needed is very sad and somehow obsene, but the way things are is the alternative. This would be a huge blessing to those who hate the thought of any abortions in that they could put their money where their mouths are and with no hassle. So if the gov't will set up the system and get back and let it roll, everyone on both sides can be contented knowing that there were no longer any unwanted children in the country.

WTH? That's about the worst idea I've ever heard in this debate on any forum...Ever. BIDDING ON BABIES?

[kevinpate]

They could always set up a e-babes auction system to handle for the bidding

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

They could always set up a e-babes auction system to handle for the bidding

lol...Ebay-bies.com.

[bandnerd]

Well thank God it's not a clown car!

Yeah, I really just wanted to say ******.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that my being a woman somehow makes me immune or whatever the above poster was trying to say...forgive me, I haven't been awake long...but, I think it does give a different perspective when you yourself could be in a situation where abortion could be something that would have to be considered. If it could never happen to you, sure, it's easy to say it's always wrong.

It kind of goes along with assisted suicide for me. Sure, people say it's wrong, and legally it's wrong...but if you've ever watched someone suffer and completely lose themselves and they want to die but can't...well, your vision suddenly becomes a little more gray.

[Caboose]

In case you hadn't heard the vast majority of the rest of civilization on this planet also opposes the death penalty and uses life in prison as the maximum punishment.

Um.. are you sure?

IMO there are rare cases where abortion is appropriate, but not as birth control. But, that's none of the state's business either.

Either life is sacred or it isn't. Right?

[USG '60]

That's about the worst idea I've ever heard in this debate on any forum...Ever. BIDDING ON BABIES?

How come? It solves everyone's problems and very efficiently. Compare it to what is in existence. Don't just slough it off. Respond to the points made. Or are you wanting to remain blind to reality?

[Karried]

I don't think anyone is trying to change anyone's mind....

But the point is to explain the reasoning behind opinions so that the other person might have a better understanding of why you feel the way you do about an issue. And hopefully, show a little more understanding, compassion or empathy instead of black and white judgements.

It's so easy to sit on the sidelines and judge others..

I love the saying 'Walk a mile in someone else's shoes' that sums it up for me .. unless you are a woman who has been raped, carrying an unwanted fetus, you'll never really fully understand what she is going through. You can say you do, but you don't.

And the last thing she needs is to have a man or anyone else telling her how horrible, evil and awful she is for making, what sometimes is, the absolute worst decision of her entire life.

I think the same thing about teen pregnancies.. you have a 14 year old girl telling a 14 year old boy that she in on birth control.. she's not, she wants a baby to love - she gets pregnant... he is now liable and responsible for paying to raise a child he never intended on having.. ( and yeah, we could talk all day about why and how he should never have had sex to begin with.. and I agree, but it happens... hormones get in the way... and they find a way)

So, now these kids are stuck. A 14 year old carrying a baby in high school... a boy spending his paycheck for the next 20 years on child support...

Ideally, stop the pregnancy in it's tracks, before it even gets started.. the morning after pill... whatever.. but I think doing it very early on is appropriate in some situations. I don't agree with late term abortions or casual.. 'ooopsie, my bad, have another abortion situations'. But, I will never say, ' too bad this happened to you, you were raped (by a Man!) , but I'm forcing you to carry a baby to term and have a daily reminder of your horror, then have this baby to have him taken from you and given to strangers and live with that for the rest of your life'

Doesn't matter who taught you what, that doesn't validate anything either. KKK parents teach their kids all sorts of things...

I've often wondered, what's the point of all of those starving children in Africa and elsewhere to be born, and to live just a few years to die a painful life filled with suffering and agony? Why is that preferable?

That is selfish to me.. to bring a child into this world that you know you can't feed. God, I wish they would put some sort of birth control in their water or something ....

And, I've always wondered this too .... If a technician spills a petri dish filled with a fertilized egg, did he just murder a baby?

[PennyQuilts]

You can't buy people - it is against the constitution. So bidding on babies is out on a legal basis.

If you could bid on babies, it creates a market for women to have children they have no intention of raising. It would be a human puppy mill.

Women who are in the business of selling their babies are more likely to be emotionally or mentally ill. Certain mental illnesses (bi polar for example) tend to have a genetic component.

Women who sell their babies could be doing it for money if they have a substance abuse problem. Not good for the babies.

You end up with what amounts to a contract. As things are, now, mothers can back out of an adoption up to a certain period. I don't see how a contract could trump regular adoption law but it differs from place to place. I'm only saying that wholescale "selling" of babies would open a pandora's box of legal issues and things could go south in a hurry.

Those are a few comments about the problems with selling babies.

[Prunepicker]

The whole issue would be made moot, I believe, if we passed laws to facilitate
getting "unwanted" children to parents who DID want them.

That's the best option available. Rather than murdering innocent and helpless
children, find them a home.

Then set up a system where in any woman who finds herself not wanting to
deliver a baby (for whatever reason) can register that she will have a kid ready
to deliver in x months and that it will be available to the highest bidder or the
person who impresses her most favorably.

The system is already in order. They're "Adoption Agencies" and they can't keep
up with the demand.

So if the gov't will set up the system and get back and let it roll, everyone on
both sides can be contented knowing that there were no longer any unwanted
children in the country.

The government doesn't need to get involved. The private sector provides the
most efficient means of finding homes for unwanted children.

Good Post!