Poor People

[PennyQuilts]

In this country, there are many reasons why anyone is poor. Some are good reasons, some bad, some can be avoided, others can’t. But people in this country become or remain poor along a number of different paths. Pretending that one size fits all is irresponsible when money is in such short supply.

There is little resemblance among the following common situations:

A young man with Down’s Syndrome whose elderly parents on a fixed income can scarcely afford to keep a roof over his head.

A guy with a criminal record who can’t or won’t work but continues to scatter babies with multiple women across the state.

A family whose main bread winner was hurt in an unavoidable accident.

A drug user who spends what money she has on her habit, including money she receives in child support or from her parents. She can’t keep a job because she won’t get up and go to work in the morning.

A single mother of three who never had the good sense to pick a man who would be there to help her raise her children but kept picking losers and having kids, anyway.

A middle aged or older woman whose husband abandoned for a sweet young thang - and hid his assets before she knew what hit her.

A young man with significant MS.

A couple whose child is severely brain damaged due to being born prematurely.

Someone who is mentally ill and hears voices and is too ill to think about taking his medication.

Someone who is so obnoxious and has such a piss poor work ethic that they can’t hold a job.

Someone with no job skills or education.

I could go on.

My job for a number of years has been to advocate for children and assist in finding funding for them and their families. Not so long ago, money seemed to grow on trees. In Virginia, the housing market was booming and the county and state coffers were fat from tax revenue. Now that we are in a bust, the money is gone. Just gone. We have our county homes shutting down, staff in the social services agencies is not being replaced and they are being laid off, to boot. We have next to no services available for our troubled kids and they are looking to cut back on Medicaid funding – which has been the bread and butter to obtain funding for low income families. Official unemployment hasn’t hit here as badly as in some areas but the illegal immigrant workers lost jobs when the housing boom ended. Our schools and social service agencies had been inflated to provide services for these families and now they are overextended with no tax base to support them.

In times like this when decisions have to be made, we need to be good stewards and make sure the deserving and needy get first dibs. This is exactly why I stamp and scream and complain about deadbeats. They take money out of the mouths of the ones who really need it. It is NOT a one size fits all. If someone can work, or be sensible about having a family they can support, or show better sense in selecting a partner, we will be better able to assist the ones who are in situations that they have no control over and didn’t choose.

The public shouldn’t just write a check and point fingers at those who raise an eyebrow. There is nothing wrong with pointing out where money is wasted, especially when it means that the deserving are likely to go without. And in this economy, they will go without.

I confess that I am nearly frantic that so many of my kids have nowhere to go because the group homes and residential facilities are shutting down. They are in families that don’t send them to school, or they abuse them, or they neglect them and all I can do is ask them to stay in those homes with few services, or ask the court to put them in foster care. And we don’t have many foster care families. And if the kids have committed crimes in this economy, they certainly aren’t going into foster care – it is straight to the juvenile justice system.

When there is no money for intervention, young girls running the street with a mother who sleeps with whomever will come home with her from the bar gets no protection. None. The abuse that frequently takes place is never reported. The fact that she is throwing away her education is ignored. She becomes infested with STDs. She gets pregnant before she needs to be and has several babies, several abortions, or a combination of both by age 20. That is not because no one cares but because without abuse or neglect (that reaches a legal definition) she isn’t eligible for foster care or services in these times. And there isn’t much money for it, anyway. Used to be, when there was money, you could frequently talk the parent into accepting services voluntarily if they didn’t have to pay for them. No more. Most often, Susie Q’s future is shot. And these aren’t even the “bad” cases.

When I complain about jerks who sit on their butts and get benefits it is not from a lack of compassion. It is because I know they are taking money away from kids like Susie Q. Of course, the Mothers of Susie Q don’t deserve squat. And before too long, Susie Q becomes one of those mothers, herself.

Sigh. Just what is on my heart this morning.

[FRISKY]

Good post and your point was well stated.

Now I am depressed over a situation we have no control over.

Such is life...

[Nermel]

We give too much assistence to poor people as it is. Too broke to pay for your kids at lunch (or give them a sack lunch)? No problem, we will feed them for free. Breakfast at school is also free - in case you can't manage to pour a bowl of Cheerio's. This kind of confuses me. How can you qualify for food stamps and then still have to have the school feed your child (for free)?

Oh yeah, you can qualify for $2 a month phone service subsidized by the taxpayers, your kids get free health insurance (almost all will under the new S-Chip laws).

Your rent gets subsudized if you can't pay it.

33% of americans (who filed taxes) do not pay any income taxes. Meanwhile others are overtaxed to compensate for the so many that don't.

We are making it too comfortable for people to be poor, which is a disservice to them. Comfort is the biggest obsticle to success.

This will inevitably lead the poor back down the road to serfdom.

[PennyQuilts]

Nermel, I understand where you are coming from. I see people who have no shame about accepting public assistance and will take anything free they can get. They were never taught any differently and many of them wouldn't dream of getting a job. I hear you. I don't like subsidizing that life style, either. And I do think that for many, that subsidy makes the difference in whether they are going to make a better life for themselves by taking pride in work and achievement, or whether they are just going to hang out and drift by. I think for many it kills the work ethic.

But I guess my frustration comes from dealing with kids with special needs or who are in particular situations and there just isn't much we can do to help them, these days. I see these kids, face to face so they are real to me. Whether it was EVER a good idea to spend all that money to help them out is one thing. The situation I am in is that there isn't any money, anymore. So for someone like me, it might be harder to deal with. It just feels like I ought to be able to do something but there is little I can do.

[Midtowner]

While I appreciate (and share) your beliefs, ECO, that people need to be self reliant, how would those in power go about implementing policy which would reward these qualitatively "deserving" poor and punish those who are "undeserving"? (my words)

[Karried]

We give too much assistence to poor people as it is. Too broke to pay for your kids at lunch (or give them a sack lunch)? No problem, we will feed them for free. Breakfast at school is also free - in case you can't manage to pour a bowl of Cheerio's. This kind of confuses me. How can you qualify for food stamps and then still have to have the school feed your child (for free)?

That right, we should definitely punish the kids for their screwed up parents .... I say, let them all starve.

heavy sigh...

But, for the grace of God go I..... you never know what tomorrow brings.

[Thunder]

Nermel, what programs is out there available to help those paying rent beside Section 8?

What if an apartment complex isn't with any of the programs, then what can be done?

[MikeOKC]

We give too much assistence to poor people as it is. Too broke to pay for your kids at lunch (or give them a sack lunch)? No problem, we will feed them for free. Breakfast at school is also free - in case you can't manage to pour a bowl of Cheerio's. This kind of confuses me. How can you qualify for food stamps and then still have to have the school feed your child (for free)?

Oh yeah, you can qualify for $2 a month phone service subsidized by the taxpayers, your kids get free health insurance (almost all will under the new S-Chip laws).

Your rent gets subsudized if you can't pay it.

33% of americans (who filed taxes) do not pay any income taxes. Meanwhile others are overtaxed to compensate for the so many that don't.

We are making it too comfortable for people to be poor, which is a disservice to them. Comfort is the biggest obsticle to success.

This will inevitably lead the poor back down the road to serfdom.

Interesting. Class warfare in support of the class that has so much handed to them. No, not the poor ------ the rich! What an incredibly ignorant post from another sucker who has fallen for the "It's the poor people's fault" line that seems to be on the lips of so many in this state. What's wrong with us? There is an obvious answer to every one of Nermel's points, but I don't have the energy to deal with the reich wing. Why don't I just ignore these posts?

[PennyQuilts]

Interesting. Class warfare in support of the class that has so much handed to them. No, not the poor ------ the rich! What an incredibly ignorant post from another sucker who has fallen for the "It's the poor people's fault" line that seems to be on the lips of so many in this state. What's wrong with us? There is an obvious answer to every one of Nermel's points, but I don't have the energy to deal with the reich wing. Why don't I just ignore these posts?

Why do you think rich people had things handed to them? Most of them get up and work, everyday. This is not a situation where people are saying it is "all the poor people's fault." In fact, when I started this thread that was the basic premise - that there are legitimately needy who are losing benefits because of the scammers and bums out there. People get upset about people who won't work when they can, or people who have so screwed up their life that they become a burden to society.

If a family does a good job of raising their children to get an education, have a strong work ethic and limit the number of children they bring into the world, you are acting like that is being handed something. People like that tend to do well as opposed to people who lay around blowing off an education or work. If you have upteen children with different dads and then can't afford childcare so you lay around not working - whose fault is that? "Rich" people?

Why do you hate rich people so much (and heaven knows what you mean by rich people). Most rich people are contributing far more to the betterment of society than the poverty stricken. I am not saying there aren't nice people who are poor - not at all - but face it, their resourcs are far less so they have less to contribute. And before you start saying they can volunteer, etc., do you know anyone like that other than little old ladies at their churchs? Most poverty stricken people on public assistance I know who are of working age are either bums or there is a reason for their poverty that keeps then from giving much back to society (they are sick, for example).

[danielf1935]

I know I'm going to receive some negative feedback on this, but I can take it. My dad has been a business owner for over 40 years, a rental property owner/manager for over 25 years and I have a small business and 7 rent houses.
When I bought 2 houses, 3 years ago as a package deal, they were already in the section 8 program which I agreed to continue, and what a mistake, in the 36 months that I had these 2 in the section 8 program, I never received rent on the due date, either from the goverment agency or the renter's small part. In my opinion, and I'm talking with a straight face, I would bet that at 70% of the people on subsidized housing do so because it's easier than getting and keeping a job.

[MikeOKC]

East Coast Okie, The great middle class has contributed the most and always will, as dwindling as it is. The "rich" are mostly of the investor class who live on the returns from paper shuffling. They also pay a smaller percentage of their income in total taxes than do the middle class. The tax laws are written for them. The bailouts are currently handouts to the wealthy so their foundation doesn't crumble beneath them.

This state is just incredibly conservative and is full of stories of people who are poor taking advantage of people and not working. You just never hear about the idle rich who live off the work of others. So many of them do so little real "work" and are lazy and arrogant. Many of them live off government handouts in the way of federal contracts and deliver little in return. Most of the real rich do little to nothing. They spend a lot of their money re-electing their conservative servants in Congress.

[yadillah nai]

Did you say serfdom or surfdom?

[PennyQuilts]

East Coast Okie, The great middle class has contributed the most and always will, as dwindling as it is. The "rich" are mostly of the investor class who live on the returns from paper shuffling. They also pay a smaller percentage of their income in total taxes than do the middle class. The tax laws are written for them. The bailouts are currently handouts to the wealthy so their foundation doesn't crumble beneath them.

This state is just incredibly conservative and is full of stories of people who are poor taking advantage of people and not working. You just never hear about the idle rich who live off the work of others. So many of them do so little real "work" and are lazy and arrogant. Many of them live off government handouts in the way of federal contracts and deliver little in return. Most of the real rich do little to nothing. They spend a lot of their money re-electing their conservative servants in Congress.

I think you really need to define what you mean by "rich" people to make this statement. I know plenty of people with incomes in the 6 digits, and closer to $500,000 than $100,000, who work like demons. They are out of the house to go to work by 6:30 and don't get home until close to 8:00. It is not the kind of life I would want but I personally know plenty of people who do because I'm related to them and because of the kind of work I do. The idea that "rich" people are just sitting around collecting investment money is not something I personally have observed or experienced. Do you actually know ANYONE - name names - who lives the way you are describing? I don't.

Plenty of people consider "rich" people to be those that make about $200,000 - $250,000 a year. We'd fall in that category. My husband leaves the house to drive to work at 6:30 every morning. That means he is up at 5:00. He gets home around 6:20. He is on call on the weekends and holidays and frequently has to be gone for work. He still has chores, the lawn to mow, grocery shopping. I work full time although I don't work the hours he does. I work about 45 hours a week. We certainly don't have a maid. We do our own cooking, cleaning, shopping, laundry, lawn care, home maintenance. We eat out most weekends at a Mexican dive near our house and it costs less than $22.00 even with a beer. My husband drives a 1997 minivan. I have a 2006 Murano that my mother left me when she died in 2007. Before that, I had a 1997 Taurus and had just put in a new engine rather than buy a new car.

I repeat, I know plenty of people who make as much as us and many who make much more. Not one of them are of the "investor" class who sits around on easy street. ALL of them work. I DO know some retired people who have investments that supplement their pensions but they sure aren't wealthy. Most of them have paid for their homes and watch their pennies.

When I hear people wail about the rich and act as if we are sitting on easy street, I have to wonder what in the world they are talking about.

[MikeOKC]

I think you really need to define what you mean by "rich" people to make this statement. I know plenty of people with incomes in the 6 digits, and closer to $500,000 than $100,000, who work like demons. They are out of the house to go to work by 6:30 and don't get home until close to 8:00. It is not the kind of life I would want but I personally know plenty of people who do because I'm related to them and because of the kind of work I do. The idea that "rich" people are just sitting around collecting investment money is not something I personally have observed or experienced. Do you actually know ANYONE - name names - who lives the way you are describing? I don't.

Plenty of people consider "rich" people to be those that make about $200,000 - $250,000 a year. We'd fall in that category. My husband leaves the house to drive to work at 6:30 every morning. That means he is up at 5:00. He gets home around 6:20. He is on call on the weekends and holidays and frequently has to be gone for work. He still has chores, the lawn to mow, grocery shopping. I work full time although I don't work the hours he does. I work about 45 hours a week. We certainly don't have a maid. We do our own cooking, cleaning, shopping, laundry, lawn care, home maintenance. We eat out most weekends at a Mexican dive near our house and it costs less than $22.00 even with a beer. My husband drives a 1997 minivan. I have a 2006 Murano that my mother left me when she died in 2007. Before that, I had a 1997 Taurus and had just put in a new engine rather than buy a new car.

I repeat, I know plenty of people who make as much as us and many who make much more. Not one of them are of the "investor" class who sits around on easy street. ALL of them work. I DO know some retired people who have investments that supplement their pensions but they sure aren't wealthy. Most of them have paid for their homes and watch their pennies.

When I hear people wail about the rich and act as if we are sitting on easy street, I have to wonder what in the world they are talking about.

I'm going back to OKC topics. You are obviously a rabid conservative and I don't argue with the reich wing about things that are so obvious. I don't consider a $250,000 combined income "rich" by any means. But, I wonder how many of those "out the door at 6AM" people that rake in six figures would be willing to trade jobs with a person working 10 hours a day inside a fast food restaurant or work at a hot warehouse or work on a construction site? I wonder which one truly works "harder"? Probably the rich guy in the starched shirt right?

[PennyQuilts]

I'm going back to OKC topics. You are obviously a rabid conservative and I don't argue with the reich wing about things that are so obvious. I don't consider a $250,000 combined income "rich" by any means. But, I wonder how many of those "out the door at 6AM" people that rake in six figures would be willing to trade jobs with a person working 10 hours a day inside a fast food restaurant or work at a hot warehouse or work on a construction site? I wonder which one truly works "harder"? Probably the rich guy in the starched shirt right?

Why would anyone trade with a McDonald's worker that works ten hours a day? Anyone stuck in that job for any length of time lacks ambition or ability. It would be ridiculous to work those hours for that pay for any length of time. But that is the way it has always been - most of us start out at the bottom and work our way up - even the wealthy.

I am not sure what has you so upset but I hope things get better for you.

[bluedogok]

Let me get this straight....ONLY physical labor counts as "work"?

I can guarantee you than MANY of us did physical labor for years at minimum wage when it was 2.90, 3.10, 3.35 or 3.65 an hour. Just because most of us "worked" our way out of those type of jobs doesn't mean that we don't "work" now if we work in an office.

BTW - I am not into the "6 figure" salary range and not really close to it and neither is my wife who works for a small non-profit agency.

[Nermel]

==There is an obvious answer to every one of Nermel's points, but I don't have the energy to deal with the reich wing. Why don't I just ignore these posts?

Why do people always throw out nazi related terms, such as "reich wing" when someone expresses a viewpoint they feel is "right wing"? I am by no means a social conservative.

However, I have serious issues with the redistribution of income that is going on currently. Preserving property rights (as per John Locke), something the third reich did not believe in.

In fact, the Third Reich came about as a result of the liberal socialist Weimar Republic. You just have to take the next step past Socialism.

[oneforone]

Let me get this straight....ONLY physical labor counts as "work"?

I can guarantee you than MANY of us did physical labor for years at minimum wage when it was 2.90, 3.10, 3.35 or 3.65 an hour. Just because most of us "worked" our way out of those type of jobs doesn't mean that we don't "work" now if we work in an office.

BTW - I am not into the "6 figure" salary range and not really close to it and neither is my wife who works for a small non-profit agency.

You have to understand today's new workers think the good jobs should be given to them. I am just like you. I started out washing dishes in a BBQ joint for $4.35 an hour. After six months and a pain in the ass boss. I went a grocery store and store and made $5.00 an hour.

Half way through my senior year I came to the conclusion that $5 an hour would not house, feed and clothe me. I knew I was not ready for college and living with Mom and Dad was not an option. I decided to go the military route. The food, clothing and shelter came out of my paycheck before I got my hands on it. The military helped me build a life and a resume. From there it was $10 an hour job in retail. In Nov 2007, I saw my employer **Cough Circuit City Cough** heading towards an iceberg at a full rate of speed. I knew my bills had to be paid and I could not stay around to fill the effects of the impact. I started job searching and found my current job. More money and better benefits made me jump ship to a better company.

Sorry to take so long but.... my point is. If a worker wants better pay and a better quality of life they have to be willing to make an effort. Nobody is stuck in any job. You can go to school and train for something new that pays better. You could market your existing skills and shop competing companies in your industry. All you have to do is be willing to sacrifice some of your off time and you can find a better job. Anyone who thinks they cannot do it just selling themselves short. I do not feel sorry for anyone who refuses to take a risk and act on traveling the road to success.

[Richard at Remax]

Ahh finally a topic I can get into.

I grew up very well and fortunate. My pops is a geologist who worked his ass off after living in inner city new orleans to become very successful while being very humble and grateful. I was always told if I recieved a petroleum geology degree (not easy) that I would have a entry level job in the company. well I worked my ass off, got my degree, and now I work my ass off from 8-5 and sometimes weekends when wells are drilling.

Now this is where I get extremely aggrivated. I have friends (and I know many people on here do) who are bums who just do the bare minimum to get by and extend school, if they havent droppped out yet, because they do not want to go in the real world. And I get sh*t from them all the time because I do well for myself and can afford to do things that most of them cannot. And don't get me wrong, my friends aren't poor or didnt grow up poor. They chose to go down that path.

And a big problem is that most people just don't know any better when it comes to finances. I encourage people to listen to dave ramsey on talk radio sometimes. When you hear some of the stories on there (some single lady with two kids living under poverty level and just started leasing a 40k bmw and wonders why she is in debt) you understand why this country's economy has gone whack. Also on his show he quoted some research that says that 90% of the millionaires out there were self made and the rest were folks who inherited it.

And thats where I will lead up. Everyone has a choice to make. Whether it is an easy choice to make or not, one is always there. And I hate to sound smug but the only reason why I can come up with why less fortunate people are so mad with the upper class is envy and jealousy. why should I feel bad for doing everything I needed to do to be where I am? hell i even worked at rusty's frozen custard in norman if that says anything.

MikeOKC says "The great middle class has contributed the most and always will, as dwindling as it is. The "rich" are mostly of the investor class who live on the returns from paper shuffling. They also pay a smaller percentage of their income in total taxes than do the middle class. The tax laws are written for them. The bailouts are currently handouts to the wealthy so their foundation doesn't crumble beneath them.

If you think the rich pay a smaller percentage of thier income than the rest then you are in denial. Why do you think less than 3% of the countrys taxpayers account for over 75%of the total taxes collected? Also, a household income of 250k, especially here in OKC, is doing verryy well for themselves.

But don't worry Mike. Keep sitting by the mailbox and Obama will send you your check and everything will be OK.

[PennyQuilts]

There never used to be any discussion of being owed anything. When you grew up, it was assumed that the buck stopped with you and it was your responsibility to care for your family and make good decisions. Finishing school and getting a good job was something everyone understood was the formula for a good life. The old line of what do you want to be when you grow up that started when you were a toddler wasn't just words. People were moving towards independence from the cradle. You assumed that you'd start out with nothing and if you worked hard, you had a chance to get something. Even those people who had "connections" went through a certain angst of wanting to "prove they could make it on their own" or "stand on their own two feet." I haven't heard that sentiment in a very long time.

If you were so inclined, "Finding the right man" or "finding the right woman" was something we heard all the time. Eveyone understood that there is no one size fits all. It was important to be choosy and think about what would work best for you. You THOUGHT about whether this person would be a good parent for your children. There were good reasons a man didn't marry a barfly and a woman didn't marry a bum. If they did, the whole world would shake their head at their foolishiness. The outcome is relatively predictable.

The old custom of wedding gifts was the way that older folks helped a young couple start out. They gave them towels and can openers and toasters because, frankly, they probably didn't have enough extra money to buy their own. Unless you were the country club set, most weddings were an afternoon affair at the church followed by a reception (no sit down food) at the reception hall. The idea of having babies ahead of the ceremony and waiting so you could save up to have the wedding of your dreams would be considered the stupidest thing ever imagined. If you can't afford a wedding, what the HELL were you doing having kids???? And that $10,000 you just blew on a HONEYMOON? Why aren't you buying a house?????

"Keeping up with the Jones" was a sentiment that was self imposed - in other words, if they were doing better than you, you felt a sense of embarassment and would work harder to keep up. I am not saying that Keeping up with the Jones was a particularly sane thing to do - just pointing out the difference from today - which is - that many people - especially young people - think we are all "entitled" to have what the Jones' have. We don't have to earn it. We assume that if the Jones have it, we should have it, too. It is a birthright. We don't want to work harder to get it. We want to have it just...because they have it. It is a completely different mindset and it has taken root in the past 30 years.

In other words, back in the day, if you weren't doing as well as your neighbor, it was a negative reflection on you. The idea that the more successful SHOULD have to pay your share of taxes because you weren't as successful would be a jaw dropping relevation. Yes, we have had a sliding scale of tax percentages for a long time. But the shamelessness of the ones making less of themselves in demanding that others pay their way is relatively new in the middle class.

[FFLady]

Very well said ECO !!

[solitude]

Hello from Los Angeles! Just checking in.

Some things never change...I see East Coast Okie is still around living in her 'Leave It To Beaver' fantasy land and the far right are still beating up on poor people for being stuck in their cycle of poverty. How dare them! Get off that construction site and get a REAL JOB! You know, put on a suit and tie and sell insurance or something - a real job! Get out of that warehouse and be a damn stock broker or something. Don't you know you just have to WORK HARD?

I have to say, I am soooo glad to be away from all of that everyday. Oklahoma will forever be a red state with politically small minds and even smaller hearts. Compassion is only something reserved for charity and.....dare I say it.....church (yeah, right).

[mcgrawsdad]

There exist a huge lack of personal responsibility in the good ol' U.S.A. While I believe that "this you do unto the least of them, you do also unto me." Those who do not or will not help themselves; I have no sympathy for. Unless someone has had something terribly tragic occur to them, there is no reason to be poor in the U.S.A.

[solitude]

There exist a huge lack of personal responsibility in the good ol' U.S.A. While I believe that "this you do unto the least of them, you do also unto me." Those who do not or will not help themselves; I have no sympathy for. Unless someone has had something terribly tragic occur to them, there is no reason to be poor in the U.S.A.

One sickness can put a person on the street. There are many reasons for poverty in America - including being a part of the working poor.

If you really believe your ridiculous comment about being poor in the USA you, my friend, are certifiable.

I have no intention on being brought back into the Oklahoma rightwing nuttery. God, I am glad I am out of that city. Not for the city itself - it's a great place, but the politics and religion are just so crazy as to almost be nothing but a sorry parody of itself. The city I grew up in, it's sad.

[GWB]

Hello from Los Angeles! Just checking in.

Some things never change...I see East Coast Okie is still around living in her 'Leave It To Beaver' fantasy land and the far right are still beating up on poor people for being stuck in their cycle of poverty. How dare them! Get off that construction site and get a REAL JOB! You know, put on a suit and tie and sell insurance or something - a real job! Get out of that warehouse and be a damn stock broker or something. Don't you know you just have to WORK HARD?

I have to say, I am soooo glad to be away from all of that everyday. Oklahoma will forever be a red state with politically small minds and even smaller hearts.

Well, I'm sure there's a number of people here who are glad you're away from here too. Oklahoma is a wonderful place to live with some of the most big hearted people I've ever known. You liberal elitists crack me up!