Pregame prayer

[Midtowner]

Hi there!.

Ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?

I'm asking because we took a client to a game. The prayer started and he immediately got upset to the point that we had to take him back to his hotel and apologize profusely.

He was from India and apparently thought we had shanghaid him into some sort of religious ceremony prior to an NBA game.

Needless to say, we won't be taking anymore clients to games.

Wow... are your clients usually culturally insensitive jackasses?

[Martin]

wow... are your clients usually culturally insensitive jackasses?

lmao... priceless.

-M

[neodeity]

the context of my remark was under 'coercion'... while it's possible that neither you nor your client had ample opportunity to 'get the heck out of dodge' before the prayer began, nobody was physically forced to stay. nobody was 'coerced' to pray.

I had intended to back off the word "coerced," as it might have been too strong and was certainly hastily chosen; but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect it was dead on. It's not feasible to leave a sporting event during a pregame prayer; by the time you realize its happening and start to leave, the prayer is over. I suppose that limits your choices to joining the prayer or ignoring it. If you join, are you doing so because you truly want to pray at that moment or is it just easier to go along with the group; or worse because you're afraid of being singled out as a malcontent? For those that have ever thought about not participating in a group prayer, didn't you secretly fear someone was going to point out your non-participation by yelling, "Stone him" or, 'heretic" or perhaps just saying something personally embarrassing? But seriously, if a prayer isn't you're idea, and you're just going along, what good is it? It would seem its only real function is to separate the sheep from those who really don't like the unchanging nature of the view from the middle of a flock.

[SoonerQueen]

I think it's nice that they pray before games. To me, it's up to the players and coaches what they do and I think to those of us that are religious, a prayer can mean a lot.If there are players that don't care to participate, they can stand quietly, and not spoil the moment for the others. With the way our team is playing, I think a prayer might just be a good thing.

[OKCMallen]

I had intended to back off the word "coerced," as it might have been too strong and was certainly hastily chosen; but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect it was dead on. It's not feasible to leave a sporting event during a pregame prayer; by the time you realize its happening and start to leave, the prayer is over. I suppose that limits your choices to joining the prayer or ignoring it. If you join, are you doing so because you truly want to pray at that moment or is it just easier to go along with the group; or worse because you're afraid of being singled out as a malcontent? For those that have ever thought about not participating in a group prayer, didn't you secretly fear someone was going to point out your non-participation by yelling, "Stone him" or, 'heretic" or perhaps just saying something personally embarrassing? But seriously, if a prayer isn't you're idea, and you're just going along, what good is it? It would seem its only real function is to separate the sheep from those who really don't like the unchanging nature of the view from the middle of a flock.

Then don't go to NBA games in OKC. You don't have a fundamental right to do so. This isn't a government function.

[Midtowner]

I had intended to back off the word "coerced," as it might have been too strong and was certainly hastily chosen; but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect it was dead on. It's not feasible to leave a sporting event during a pregame prayer; by the time you realize its happening and start to leave, the prayer is over. I suppose that limits your choices to joining the prayer or ignoring it. If you join, are you doing so because you truly want to pray at that moment or is it just easier to go along with the group; or worse because you're afraid of being singled out as a malcontent? For those that have ever thought about not participating in a group prayer, didn't you secretly fear someone was going to point out your non-participation by yelling, "Stone him" or, 'heretic" or perhaps just saying something personally embarrassing? But seriously, if a prayer isn't you're idea, and you're just going along, what good is it? It would seem its only real function is to separate the sheep from those who really don't like the unchanging nature of the view from the middle of a flock.

I actually feel uncomfortable participating in group prayers outside of church. Ordinarily, while everyone bows their heads and prays, I just look around the room and wait for it to be over. It's no big ass deal.

And to date, no one has suggested I be stoned.

At least not for that.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think your feelings are all that reasonable. Further, I think your fears are completely unfounded. Heck.. I've not bowed my head to pray at funerals, sporting events, church, you name it, I've not bowed my head at it.... and I've lived to tell the tale.

Just realize that this is the culture you live in and people are going to do what they want to do. When you are the 1% in the crowd who disagrees, your feelings do not take precedent over the desires of the 99% who think everything is fine. And for what it's worth, count me among the 99%.

[fuzzytoad]

Wow... are your clients usually culturally insensitive jackasses?

lmao... priceless.

-M

wow, seriously?

and people wonder why Oklahoma has such a hard time attracting new business....

[Midtowner]

yes... seriously.

actually, i don't think businesses are afraid of having a work pool that's 'too christian' or 'too prayerful.' for some reason, i don't think that's way high on their list of things they don't want.

we don't have to apologize for who and what we are. hell i'm not even one of those folks who feels the need to pray in public, but that's the sort of city i live in... just roll with it. getting offended by prayer is silly. get offended by homelessness or poverty or crime or drugs or stuff that you know... actually matters and actually does more than make you feel unjustifiably uncomfortable in a public setting.

[Martin]

and people wonder why oklahoma has such a hard time attracting new business....

the point is that cultural sensitivity is a two-way street.

but... nice attempt at sniping. try to put some thought into your assertions next time. someone might actually take you seriously.

-M

[fuzzytoad]

the point is that cultural sensitivity is a two-way street.

but... nice attempt at sniping. try to put some thought into your assertions next time. someone might actually take you seriously.

-M

no, I know what the point is and the comments on here make it perfectly clear that the "2-way street" is only applicable to non-christians.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me, I see it every single day in this city.

[Midtowner]

no, I know what the point is and the comments on here make it perfectly clear that the "2-way street" is only applicable to non-christians.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me, I see it every single day in this city.

ah... so tolerant.

so open-minded.

how dare those religious people worship in a public setting! those bastards!

[PennyQuilts]

If I went somewhere and they had a Muslim praying so I left, everyone and their brother would think I was a loon. Even the Christians.

It IS culturally insensitive to pitch a fit because someone prays in public.

[jbrown84]

no, I know what the point is and the comments on here make it perfectly clear that the "2-way street" is only applicable to non-christians.

Not at all. If I were in India and found myself for whatever reason in a religious or cultural situation unfamiliar to me, I would be respectful, not get pissed and run back to my hotel.

I had intended to back off the word "coerced," as it might have been too strong and was certainly hastily chosen; but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect it was dead on. It's not feasible to leave a sporting event during a pregame prayer; by the time you realize its happening and start to leave, the prayer is over. I suppose that limits your choices to joining the prayer or ignoring it.

No it's not feasible to leave, so either don't come at all, or come a few minutes late so you miss the prayer. Easy peasy.

[metro]

When are you all going to get over this topic already? Move on...

[kevinpate]

but but dad ... we were just passing time waiting for another super secret someday to be shared mondo mega announcement on something truly wonderfully fantastical to appear somewhere ... over the rainbow , c'mon everybody join in, bluebirds fly ...

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

I'm still wondering where the pie is.....

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

but but dad ... we were just passing time waiting for another super secret someday to be shared mondo mega announcement on something truly wonderfully fantastical to appear somewhere ... over the rainbow , c'mon everybody join in, bluebirds fly ...

Are you channeling Bob Dylan?

I'm still wondering where the pie is.....

I ate it.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

...I ate it.

Well, at least that explains the smell.....

[nik4411]

Wow, I realize religion is a hugely controversial topic that can be argued and argued until the end of time, but geez, I just cannot understand why SOME people are so nit picky and so sensitive to the issues concerning it. There is so much more going on in the world, more important things than public prayer to get your panties in a bunch over. I also realize this thread has probably gone on far too long and I am not helping by adding to it, but it just boggles my mind.

[PennyQuilts]

Wow, I realize religion is a hugely controversial topic that can be argued and argued until the end of time, but geez, I just cannot understand why SOME people are so nit picky and so sensitive to the issues concerning it. There is so much more going on in the world, more important things than public prayer to get your panties in a bunch over.

Religion does not seem to be your passion. It IS for many. For many, religion is important enough to fly into buildings and blow up babies. Even for those people who don't share the religious belief that violence is permissible, their passion for their religion is just as strong. Recall that there were riots and calls for death over CARTOONS?????

[nik4411]

Good post east coast okie, you are right some are much more extreme/passionate than others concerning their religion. Point duly noted.

[Dave Cook]

Look.....let's look at the real issue. It's the Radical Right in this country pushing their 'Christian Agenda' on good, hard-working, law-abiding Americans.

You can't go anywhere anymore without seeing these Christians cramming their lifestyle down our throats. Turn on TV right now.....you'll find numerous channels of this drivel. Drive down the street, you see endless buidlings and billboards filled with this silliness. Visit a strip mall, you'll find stores dedicated to it. Hit a basketball game, they start the night off with it. Now they want to put it in our schools.....with our KIDS!

Look, I know a few Christians....some of my best-friends are Christian.....but it's a warped lifestyle. They say you're born again with it, but I'm convinced it's a CHOICE.....a CHOICE to be warped in the head.

Can't we get our country back........and just get back to living a life based on reality?

[Midtowner]

Why can't the social right push its own agenda? What's wrong with that?

You must hate free speech, and by extension, you must hate America.

Traitor.

[PennyQuilts]

Look.....let's look at the real issue. It's the Radical Right in this country pushing their 'Christian Agenda' on good, hard-working, law-abiding Americans.

I'm not even Christian and I don't see that. Some people are very excited about their Christian religion but they aren't ugly about it. I see a lot MORE ugliness from people pitching a fit, refusing to allow other people to practice their religion, Christian or otherwise. When you consider what they could be doing - at least the christians aren't violent or ugly. I mean, seriously, how miffed can you get at a religion that is so watered down that they mainly just want to have a group hug? (sorry Christians - no offense). I think they are mainly frustrated that the outward trappings of Christianity are being stomped out. Honestly, why get upset about a religion that preaches the golden rule; not lying, stealing or cheating; chastity, paying your bills, working your job, etc. They certainly aren't threatening to blow you up if you don't go along.

I don't appreciate people coming to my door and pushing their faith but they always go away if I tell them I am not interested or use my fall back line - "I'll listen to you tell me about your religion if you'll come to a coven meeting." That is a joke - I have never gotten to use that line. I keep waiting. The deal with Christianity, particularly protestant, is that it is an evangelical religion - that frequently means they are out trying to make converts. If they just bred their own, it would be less annoying.

Of course, I'm not living in Oklahoma, presently, so that may explain why I see this as such a nonissue. On the east coast, religion is not really even on the radar. There are a ton of people who follow the jewish religion but they don't try to convert you. The christians are the majority, by far, but it's pretty much a Sunday affair. I can appreciate that in Oklahoma you have more people knocking on your doors and asking if you know where you are going if you die, tonight. It is irritating. But if the people back east can tolerate a prayer before a ballgame - and there are a lot of non christians around here - I don't know why people in the heartland have to get so darn freaked out over it. I think it is just one of those things that Okies want to rebel about because it is so much in your face. If they were living near the forests, they'd be bitching about timber sellers. If they lived in Maryland, they be all up in arms about crabs.

Just my opinion.

[neodeity]

Then don't go to NBA games in OKC. You don't have a fundamental right to do so. This isn't a government function.

Congratulations, and as winner of the Blinding Elucidator of the Obvious award (a.k.a. the B.E.O.) you'll win several pair of rolled eyes, the mocking approval of your friends, plus the opportunity to show me where, exactly, I ever implied otherwise. I get it; this isn't a first amendment issue.

I actually feel uncomfortable participating in group prayers outside of church. Ordinarily, while everyone bows their heads and prays, I just look around the room and wait for it to be over. It's no big ass deal.

And to date, no one has suggested I be stoned.

At least not for that.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think your feelings are all that reasonable. Further, I think your fears are completely unfounded. Heck.. I've not bowed my head to pray at funerals, sporting events, church, you name it, I've not bowed my head at it.... and I've lived to tell the tale.

Just realize that this is the culture you live in and people are going to do what they want to do. When you are the 1% in the crowd who disagrees, your feelings do not take precedent over the desires of the 99% who think everything is fine. And for what it's worth, count me among the 99%.

This isn't about my feelings either. I was simply defending the use of the word "coerced." My only real point, or question, has been why? Exactly what is the intended objective of a pregame prayer (surely there's some reason it is given) and how well does this prayer achieve that objective. That's it, nothing more nefarious than a simple question and follow-up.