Quail Springs Mall owner struggling with debt

[sgray]

I really dont think that most people care whether they have exclusive anything...in fact, if they take the approach you mention (that people WILL have to go there) then it could very well bring their existence to a close even sooner. Obviously, you don't win customers by forcing them in to your store--there's always a competitor that will sell the customer what they need and make the experience better. It's also like fighting gravity--why why why fight things the hard way? You can invest a little capital in making your place of business a place people WANT to go shop and earn a loyal customer base and profit more in the long run. That mall I mentioned down south on the coast--I was just there last week--it works great! Easy to get in and out of. And they're always packed, but they planned for that, so you don't notice as much. And it is as big, if not bigger than penn square.

I was just over at Penn the other day and can confirm that no construction is happening at the moment. You mentioned the two additional stories to the existing parking garage. That even furthers my point. Any sane person could understand that at some point, the traffic within the garage is going to get congested as well, because the exits and entrances for the garage are still gonna be limited to the same capacity. Again, why keep fighting gravity??? Gravity is our friend and we must learn to live with it because we cannot overcome it. One person suggested a re-design of the existing parking lot (which is surface only) and make it as efficient as possible. Whether it's building more easily accessible and balanced garages or whatever the result may be, I LIKE THAT IDEA...it contains logic and would involve analysis of the traffic and shape the final product to the load, making the place more customer-friendly. Spread the load--load balance--whatever you want to call it. Quit piling up a bunch of afterthoughts and build something right, that works.

It's sort of off-topic, but a relevant point. Look at what the city just did at that intersection in front of Bell Isle, next to Penn Square. The off-ramp from I-44 to NW EXPWY was poorly designed and so instead of fixing it or learning from the mistake, they block off the right lane, so traffic (like me) coming from the east can't turn right. What the heck is up with that? I have a right to access that lane, but because the city is so hardheaded...geez. That's the mentality that I'm talking about...and it exists just the same in that Penn Square Mall.

I'll say it again, you're not gonna strongarm customers into that place. That's fightin gravity bro, and it aint gonna fly. People can get their stuff from other retailers or on the internet. If you want the business, invest in your customers.

[jbrown84]

I never said anything about strongarming. I'm not speaking for Penn Square management. I highly doubt that their philosophy is that they can rest on their laurels because they have the exclusive stores. They didn't get where they are by resting on laurels or we would still have those nice pastels and faux-victorian architecture inside.

I shop there often and don't find it to be any more of a hassle than any other mall I've ever been to. I really don't understand your intense disdain.

Obviously they are going to do what they need to. How do you know the garage expansion won't include new entrances? All these things can and will be addressed.

[sgray]

Well, more or less you did because you said that IF folks want to buy from those certain stores they WILL go to penn, suggesting that they will either go their or not get what they want. My response said that no one is going to be forced into doing that and they will get what they want regardless if penn is there or not.

Unless you do a lot of visiting to malls outside of this area, it's harder to see the difference. You wont see the difference just from visiting Penn or Quail, etc...

How do I know the garage wont have more entrances? Well, for starters, they would have to build them in the sky because they have used up all the room they have in that packed back corner at the surface level. Also notice that the road connecting those entrances is out of room...and for entrances and exits...they have used up all the room they have there already. You can only cram so much into a given area. They need to re-work their parking and accessibility to the facility altogether.

On your last comment, they will do what they WANT to do, whatever they feel is appropriate. That doesn't mean it will be right or more helpful. They can and may address these issues, but to what extent remains to be seen.

I can only draw conclusions from what they have done, not from whats planned. I can only judge them based on their actions or inactions to-date. When we, as the customer see restaurants popping up in their parking lot almost overnight (which was planned) but the parking and accessibility issues have existed for years and nothing has been done to-date, we can easily see where their priorities lie.

[bluedogok]

I never had much of problem parking when I went there, I usually parked on the north side of Foley's and never had trouble finding a parking place, if you try to park by Dillard's then it is going to be more crowded because it is the first visible parking. Of course, I avoided going at the real busy shopping times as I pretty much try to when I go shopping anywhere just like I don't go to Home Depot/Lowe's on a Saturday morning. There are also "brand" shoppers who will go to Penn Square because it is the only location where the "brand" they are seeking is sold. You are right about non-brand shoppers eventually going somewhere else if it is more difficult than they perceive it should be because they aren't lured by a brand.

Part of the issue with Penn Square is that it was originally built in the 60's as a much smaller mall, if you look at most malls built during that period and later expanded (like Northpark in Dallas) they all have site constraints and less than optimal traffic flow you also have people that seem to forget about the exit to Penn in the far north parking lot. It could definitely use more capacity and better flow for those times like Thanksgiving weekend.

[jbrown84]

There are also "brand" shoppers who will go to Penn Square because it is the only location where the "brand" they are seeking is sold.

That's exactly what I am saying. That's what most of the stores are and they are moving towards that even more, like Northpark. Obviously, sgray is not a "brand" shopper, but the fact that that parking lot is packed on a weekend and overflowing during the holiday season shows that the mall has no problem luring shoppers, despite what traffic flow and parking issues it has.

As far as the current parking garage goes, don't forget that the entire north side is exposed. On top of adding floors, the footprint of the garage could be doubled to the north.

[sgray]

Do you think that if these strip malls keep growing that those "brand" stores will stay and suffer business? Don't think so. If it comes down to it, they are likely to go where the business is. And these "brand" shoppers. Who is to say they will continue to be "brand-specific" shoppers or purchase from the company using alternate means, like the internet?

The other part of your post, jbrown, is interesting because you seem to think that as long as 'some' people get into the place, that that means everything is okay. Why would any good businessman purposely limit the amount of customers going through their store? I think that if the malls dont start addressing this that you'll start to more more of these "brand" stores, that are only in the malls, start to move out closer to the customers...leaving the owners with an empty building. We will see how the mall owners respond...

Jbrown, you mention the north end of the garage...dude, the entire garage is tucked into that corner and the road that wraps the garage is as wide as it can be. You can only have so much traffic wrapping the back of that building at once--not to mention that there is only so much moving traffic at once that can be happening in that garage at once. They should look at balancing the load. Bluedogok mentions the far north exit/entrance and I think it's a great idea to spread the load between the various inlets/outlets. They should consider another garage or something that doesn't keep loading up the existing road back there.

[jbrown84]

Do you think that if these strip malls keep growing that those "brand" stores will stay and suffer business?

Business isn't suffering!! That's the point. And you are not going to see Sephora, Strahovski, Bachrach, etc locating in your crappy strip malls next to Payless and Supercuts.

I think that if the malls dont start addressing this that you'll start to more more of these "brand" stores, that are only in the malls, start to move out closer to the customers...leaving the owners with an empty building.

These shoppers live a mile north in Nichols Hills. What is this about moving "out"? Maybe you live in the cookie cutter suburbs, but plenty of people do not.

Every shopping center has parking limitations. Your acting as if Penn Square has only 200 spots for a regional mall or something. There are plenty of spaces and I hardly think anyone is leaving and going elsewhere because there is nowhere to park. Maybe in an extreme situation like a Saturday afternoon in December.

Jbrown, you mention the north end of the garage...dude, the entire garage is tucked into that corner and the road that wraps the garage is as wide as it can be. You can only have so much traffic wrapping the back of that building at once--not to mention that there is only so much moving traffic at once that can be happening in that garage at once. They should look at balancing the load. Bluedogok mentions the far north exit/entrance and I think it's a great idea to spread the load between the various inlets/outlets. They should consider another garage or something that doesn't keep loading up the existing road back there.

The existing garage does not go all the way to the far north end of the lot. It is even with the north side of Macy's. If they extended it to the far end, that would actually direct traffic to the far NW exit that bluedog mentioned.

Google Maps

They also really need to make a bridge over the ditch to Belle Isle Station, but that's more complicated as it's probably city or state easment.

[sgray]

Business isn't suffering!! That's the point. And you are not going to see Sephora, Strahovski, Bachrach, etc locating in your crappy strip malls next to Payless and Supercuts.

These shoppers live a mile north in Nichols Hills. What is this about moving "out"? Maybe you live in the cookie cutter suburbs, but plenty of people do not.

1) I didn't say "business is suffering"! (please read what I post so that I don't have to re-clarify) I said do you think they will suffer business because of the limitations of the facility? And that is a very valid point. For example, if 95% of the parking lot were hogged by folks visiting other stores due to some sale or any other reason, then they WOULD suffer some business! Right now, there's not enough parking to get the stores half full. Quail has a more balanced parking and system of accessibility than Penn!

2) The stores that you mention are gonna do what is best for their business. Unlike the mall owner who isn't a direct retailer, their success depends on their customers.

3) I think a lot of folks would take issue to your general reference to strip malls as "Crappy". Sure, there are some that are, but they are becoming less and less due to the building of all these new, nicer-looking ones.

4) Again, if you were reading my posts you would have seen where I clearly stated that I live right across the street from Penn Square Mall. I even made it an issue because I was going to Penn Square every week! How do you figure I live in the cookie-cutter suburbs when I clearly stated I live across the street???

5) How do you figure that all these shoppers are from Nichols Hills. Homes in Nichols Hills are mostly big and spread out in most parts. There's less homes in Nichols Hills than a square mile in some parts of the city.

Every shopping center has parking limitations. Your acting as if Penn Square has only 200 spots for a regional mall or something. There are plenty of spaces and I hardly think anyone is leaving and going elsewhere because there is nowhere to park. Maybe in an extreme situation like a Saturday afternoon in December.

Around here, yes. Other places, not like here. Everything has limitations, but here the issue is beyond stupid. Just out of curiosity, why don't you watch the lot on a halfway busy day. I see folks drive through and leave just in my walk to the building. Prior to this post, I've listened to other folks besides me complain about the issues there. You may not want to believe that folks are going elsewhere, but who do you think are visiting the other stand-alone stores and strip malls? Hmm...

The existing garage does not go all the way to the far north end of the lot. It is even with the north side of Macy's. If they extended it to the far end, that would actually direct traffic to the far NW exit that bluedog mentioned.

Again, you are not listening to what I am saying. There is a bottleneck with regard to the fact that traffic is already using that part of the lot for entry and exit to the existing garage and to cut across to the intersection on the SE corner. Why are you so against the thought of balancing the load? Are you a shareholder of Penn Square??? I don't usually hear folks so against ideas unless they are owner or part-owner.

[OKC PATROL]

On a lighter note....I hope Penn will eventually get a Neimans. This would compliment BC Clarks and Mr. Ooleys, which IMO are some of the elite stores in the state and maybe SW considering the history of BC and the high quality of clothing that Mr. Ooleys offers.

[jbrown84]

Just out of curiosity, why don't you watch the lot on a halfway busy day.

Did you look at the googlemap that I linked to? The lot is far from full on that typical day.

You may not want to believe that folks are going elsewhere, but who do you think are visiting the other stand-alone stores and strip malls? Hmm...

The stand alone strip malls do not have any of the stores that Penn has, so the people going there are the ones that want to go to those other stores.

Why are you so against the thought of balancing the load? Are you a shareholder of Penn Square??? I don't usually hear folks so against ideas unless they are owner or part-owner.

I'm not against ideas. I have listed several.

[sgray]

jbrown,

1) I don't need a google map to see the lot I drive thru every week. I could sketch it out in my sleep and get pretty close on the measurments. You still have not acknowledged that the additional load on that side of the lot may be better addressed by rebuilding the other sides and essentially balancing the load of traffic.

2) The fact that strip malls may not have stores you speak of certainly does not justify calling them "crappy", you know?

3) The only idea(s) you have proposed are ones that involve expansion of the one garage. I have suggested more diversity on the issue.

[southernskye]

I've been in Penn Square twice in the year and a half that we have lived here and that was twice too often. The parking is horrendous. I would say a parking garage (at least 5 stories) on the nw side closest to the Cheesecake factory would be a big help.

[bluedogok]

Most of those exclusive stores in Penn Square would not move to a "traditional" strip mall, that just isn't in their demographic. What they would possibly move to is a lifestyle center type of mall like The Domain here in Austin where our offices are located, it is strictly a high-end mall, there were many new "brand" stores that opened up there and have no other locations in the Austin metro area. The cheapest place to eat there is the California Pizza Kitchen. I can tell you already that parking isn't the greatest and it was opened about a year and a half ago, granted much of that is due to all of the construction going on right now. Luckily I am leaving for the day when the parking lots start to fill. If the one north of Quail Springs gets built and is marketed the same way that Simon marketed The Domain, I could see them moving at that point.

You also have the issue that many people object walking more than 20 feet to get to anything, go to any popular strip or big-box mall during the Christmas season and most of the time you will be walking just as far to get to one of those stores as you would to get into the mall. The problem is more about perception than reality.

[sgray]

southernskye,

A parking garage in the NW corner would separate the traffic loads enough, so that would definitely help. Do you think the NW corner would be too far to walk as opposed to building one in the SE or S side? I suppose if it was close enough to the mall.

[jbrown84]

You also have the issue that many people object walking more than 20 feet to get to anything, go to any popular strip or big-box mall during the Christmas season and most of the time you will be walking just as far to get to one of those stores as you would to get into the mall. The problem is more about perception than reality.

Exactly!

2) The fact that strip malls may not have stores you speak of certainly does not justify calling them "crappy", you know?

The only "strip mall" in the metro that comes close in quality of construction is Spring Creek in Edmond, and that's why it's the only other place you'll find Ann Taylor, White House Black Market, Jos. A Bank, etc.

There are very few that come close, and the other 90% are indeed, crappy. And I'm not talking about the stores. I'm talking about building materials, aesthetics, pedestrian friendliness, etc.

[sgray]

There again, if your opinion is that the other 90% are "Crappy" then that is fine, just dont be surprised to see others disagree.

For me, I consider a place that doesn't look run down and is halfway easy to park and get in/out of to be "not crappy". The trend around here has seen many of the strip malls refurb'd/repainted and they have done a decent job.

Tell me something, you referred to Spring Creek in Edmond as really the only decent strip mall that those stores might go to. What is so different between the shops in Spring Creek and what they are finishing up at 33rd and Broadway in Edmond? Just curious, because to me they are built roughly the same except for the style and the trees around spring creek. And I was born and grew up in Edmond, so I've definitely experienced it both ways.

[jbrown84]

The new development on the old Wal-Mart site there is pretty nice, but it's still anchored by Hobby Lobby.

It would fall under those that come close to Spring Creek, imo.

[southernskye]

southernskye,

A parking garage in the NW corner would separate the traffic loads enough, so that would definitely help. Do you think the NW corner would be too far to walk as opposed to building one in the SE or S side? I suppose if it was close enough to the mall.

I guess that would depend on your perspective, it seems to me people in OKC hate to walk anywhere.

The SE corner is way too congested with all the traffic comimg in from nw highway.

[Patrick]

The only real parking problems at Penn Square are for those people that insist on circling the front parking lots looking for close up places to park. I went this past weekend, the busiest shopping weekend of the year, and went back to the NE corner to the parking garage, and there wasn't a parking problem at all. The garage had tons of empty spots available. Problem is, no one bothers to go back there to even look. They instead, insist of fighting for parking spaces in the front of the mall. When I go to Penn, I never even waste my time with the surface lots anymore. I go immediately to the parking garage, and I always get in and out in 5-10 minutes. I think parking in the garage actually puts me closer to the stores and gives me a shorter walk, because the garage is connected to JC Penney, Macy's, and the mall entrance by the theater. I don't see the problem.

Actually, the parking situation at Penn is better now then it was several years ago. They now have 2 entrances off NW Expressway, one from Belle Isle Station, and the far NW entrace/exit. About 10 years ago, all they had was the main south entrance and two entrances off of Penn. Traffic was far worse then, then it is now. I remember in the 90's it taking over an hour to get out of the parking lot. Now, I just park in the garage, and then head for that NW exit, and I never have a problem getting out.

[sgray]

Well, I live right across the street from the place and have been going there steadily for over 20 years. I can say that their parking issues have not "gotten better".

I just went there this last wednesday (during the day too when things are slower) and the place was jam packed. The parking garage was full...I went thru the whole thing, top to bottom. I usually try there first anyways. I finally got a space when someone left the new restaurant out front. Went to quail & crossroads and had zero parking issues. Crossroads was and should have been easy due to it's fading away, but Quail was very easy to get in and out of.

It's not hard to figure out...they just need to make more efficient use of space. If that means doing another garage, so be it. Whatever the case, it should not be that hard to get in in the middle of a work/school non-holiday.

[Patrick]

Well, I live right across the street from the place and have been going there steadily for over 20 years. I can say that their parking issues have not "gotten better".

If you truely live "right across the street", you can avoid the parking situation altogether.....walk!

I just went there this last wednesday (during the day too when things are slower) and the place was jam packed.

It's Christmas! The mall is supposed to be jam packed.

The parking garage was full...I went thru the whole thing, top to bottom. I usually try there first anyways. I finally got a space when someone left the new restaurant out front.

I talked to Bob Landdeck, mall manager, about this, and he told me that security tells him that the north end of the parking garage has been empty the entire season thus far, mostly on the down ramps. It was also completely empty this past weekend when I went. So, I think he's telling me the truth.

Went to quail & crossroads and had zero parking issues. Crossroads was and should have been easy due to it's fading away, but Quail was very easy to get in and out of.

Quail has plenty of land around it, as does Crossroads, so you shouldn't have any parking problems there. But, expect to walk along ways from the outskirts of those surface lots.

It's not hard to figure out...they just need to make more efficient use of space. If that means doing another garage, so be it. Whatever the case, it should not be that hard to get in in the middle of a work/school non-holiday.

I bet you're the same person that thinks there's a parking problem in Bricktown. Boy, what would you think if Penn Square charged for parking? You know, a lot of the malls in LA charged for parking when I went there last year. I think at both The Grove and the Beverly Center, they charged at least $5 for parking.

[sgray]

If you truely live "right across the street", you can avoid the parking situation altogether.....walk!

That's the spirit! I should walk so you can have a place to park. Nice attitude!

It's Christmas! The mall is supposed to be jam packed.

That's what I thought too.

I talked to Bob Landdeck, mall manager, about this, and he told me that security tells him that the north end of the parking garage has been empty the entire season thus far, mostly on the down ramps. It was also completely empty this past weekend when I went. So, I think he's telling me the truth.

My friends and I were driving through with blinders on for the heck of it. I'm getting better at driving blind.

Quail has plenty of land around it, as does Crossroads, so you shouldn't have any parking problems there. But, expect to walk along ways from the outskirts of those surface lots.

We parked about 20 feet from the door, in the first few spaces of the aisle.

I bet you're the same person that thinks there's a parking problem in Bricktown. Boy, what would you think if Penn Square charged for parking? You know, a lot of the malls in LA charged for parking when I went there last year. I think at both The Grove and the Beverly Center, they charged at least $5 for parking.

Funny thing, that is. I spend a decent amount of time in L.A. each year, and the few times I have ever had to pay to park, it was for the convenience of parking right behind the establishment I was going to. Not paying for the convenience of walking a mile.


Merry Christmas!

[jbrown84]

We parked about 20 feet from the door, in the first few spaces of the aisle

After you drove around for 30 minutes??

[sgray]

Nope. At Quail we came right into the lot and parked right up front there on the west side of JC Penney's--up against that edge wall of trees on the west side. No waiting, no driving around. The mall was pretty packed, but the traffic load was spread out, so that was definitely a helpful thing.

[Superhyper]

I get parking spots at Penn quite easily. I just drive to the parking lot, park in a spot. Then I god forbid walk to the mall. Sometimes it's even a long walk. Having lived in a city where walking was the norm(DC) it's not exactly as devastating of a concept to me as it seems to be to everyone else.