Pregame prayer

[OKCMallen]

America was founded as/is/and will always be a nation founded on Judeo-Christian ethics.

Fixed it for you.

[southernskye]

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.

No the US was not founded as a Christian nation.

[OKCMallen]

Skye- where do people get these ideas?? Seriously.

[Midtowner]

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.

Proof?

[OKCMallen]

Proof?

Midtowner, there you go being all logical and rational and stuff.

[Lord Helmet]

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.

I'll never understand why people believe this.

[OKCMallen]

...and the people that believe it REALLY believe it. I'm not sure where this concept was born...

[southernskye]

...and the people that believe it REALLY believe it. I'm not sure where this concept was born...

Probably in churches.

[ewoodard]

I personally don't have a problem with prayer before games, and I know that many teams will say a team prayer before kickoff during the playoffs.
To say these prayers are nondenominational because they don't use Jesus' name is bull. The person they are praying to is implied to be God.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, there you go being all logical and rational and stuff.

Yeah... he might force me to trot out Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I've been known to pray for BBQ when especially hungry.

I'm hungry right now.

Dear Lord, please drop me a rib. And a piece of garlic toast if you don't mind.

Amen

I think it's perfectly fine to pray before a game.

Just nibble at your finger...You're MADE of rib.

Come to think of it...That's probably why women smell so good.

I was going to suggest we talk about sex but then realized it would probably go right back to religion or politics...

I suggest we talk about pie.

_____________

Bobby, just a thought...Using the Bible to argue with somebody that doesn't believe in what it says will work about as well as a lead balloon. Would you believe a Muslim if he quoted the Koran to you? Didn't think so. You want to use logic and reason.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

...I suggest we talk about pie.

Mmmmmm...pie......

[venture]

OMG I love pie.

nom nom nom nom

About the topic at hand. Private, non-denom prayers are find at things like this. The only issue I see is when you start using God, Jesus, Buddha, or any other deity's name.

Right now this team needs more than a prayer though. The worst joke in the league right now, with fans that were touted as the best in the nation who are leaving after the half, etc.

Land of hypocrites.

[kevinpate]

>who are leaving after the half

Do bear in mind many of these fans were raised in the time honored Okie tradition of show up, cheer, ok, that's enough, let's get outta here and beat the traffic. Doesn't matter if the team is winning or getting drummed, that sense of winning at the beatin' dat traffic game is more than enough joy for many many folk. Sad, but not untrue.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

...Right now this team needs more than a prayer though...

Like some better shooting. That said, maybe Scot Brooks can get it out of the current team.

[Joe Kimball]

America was founded as/is/and will always be a Christian nation.

With respect:

From the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, a.k.a. "Treaty Of Tripoli", ratified June 7, 1797, signed June 10, 1797:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
bolding mine

To a lesser extent:

From Amendment I of The Bill Of Rights:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

[neodeity]

I'm kinda sorry I just waded through all that; but, since I did, I might as well weigh in. As many have pointed out this isn't a First Amendment issue. When you're paying for the mic; then you can control the message. Its business as usual, and as it should be. But as person after person wrote to say the prayer was egregiously non-denominational so "why should anyone have a problem with it," I was repeatedly struck with the same thought; I really want a cheeseburger...wait, sorry...I did think that, but also...why do you need a prayer before a sporting event? I'm sure there are less appropriate places for coerced group prayer, but none come to mind. What is the purpose of a pregame prayer?

[Martin]

i'm sure there are less appropriate places for coerced group prayer...

coerced? you mean people were forced to pray? did they kick out folks who didn't play along?

i'm not completely against anyone who doesn't think that a prayer is appropriate before a public event... i can appreciate the fact that it makes some people uncomfortable... but nobody was coerced into praying.

-M

[fuzzytoad]

coerced? you mean people were forced to pray? did they kick out folks who didn't play along?

i'm not completely against anyone who doesn't think that a prayer is appropriate before a public event... i can appreciate the fact that it makes some people uncomfortable... but nobody was coerced into praying.

-M

By performing a public, group prayer; people not of the faith that were praying were forced to observe, react/not react, and put up with something they may have found highly offensive.

You don't see anyone shooting a good luck freethrow before church service right there in front of the pulpit.


On top of that, you know very well that if a muslim got down on his knees with a carpet to pray to allah right before the game, there would be cries of complete outrage from the same people who conduct/approve of these prayers before each game.

[Martin]

by performing a public, group prayer; people not of the faith that were praying were forced to observe, react/not react, and put up with something they may have found highly offensive.

"people not of the faith that were praying?" anyone not of the faith that were praying were doing so by choice. nobody was forced to pray. having to observe something that you may find offensive is not coercion to perform that act. maybe you don't understand what 'coercion' means, either.

you don't see anyone shooting a good luck freethrow before church service right there in front up the pulpit.

this analogy is completely irrelevant. in this culture, there is a custom for 'praying' before athletic events. perhaps the custom is dying, but its vestiges still exist. there is no such custom for lucky freethrows at church services. bottom line is, if you go into a public event hosted by a private entity, you don't have the right to say what happens and doesn't happen... whether that action be a prayer at a basketball game or a lucky freethrow at a worship service.

on top of that, you know very well that if a muslim got down on his knees with a carpet to pray to allah right before the game, there would be cries of complete outrage from the same people who conduct/approve of these prayers before each game.

actually, i doubt that there'd be much outrage... some, maybe. but again, it's irrelevant... there is no such custom.

-M

[fuzzytoad]

maybe you don't understand what 'coercion' means, either.

perhaps its you having the difficulty here.

Are Non-Christians given the opportunity to lead a public prayer alongside the Christian one? Are people given the opportunity to leave the building if they find the act of public Christian prayer offensive?

Is there any other means of avoiding this pre-game spectacle other than "Don't go if you don't like prayer"?

Which

leads to my second analogy, which you claim is irrelevant.

People go to Thunder games to watch basketball. People go to Church for religious reasons. How is that irrelevant?

actually, i doubt that there'd be much outrage... some, maybe. but again, it's irrelevant... there is no such custom.

-M

either there is a custom or there isn't. in the same post you claim that there's a custom of prayer before games. Which is it?

[Martin]

are non-christians given the opportunity to lead a public prayer alongside the christian one?

nope. and why should they be? the basketball game is a private event. hypothetically speaking, i can't waltz into a meeting of atheist headquarters international and demand a christian prayer. i can't traipse into a basketball game of another team and demand a prayer if they don't have one.

are people given the opportunity to leave the building if they find the act of public christian prayer offensive

you bet they are. certainly you don't think they lock up the arena once the prayer starts.

either there is a custom or there isn't. in the same post you claim that there's a custom of prayer before games. which is it?

it's not a custom in primarily muslim countries (or any other) to whip out a prayer mat before a game. it is an american custom (though arguably a dying one) to pray before sporting events. to say why don't we do "x" when it's not part of any customary behavior is pretty much irrelevant to the argument.

-M

[jc4455]

nope. and why should they be? the basketball game is a private event. hypothetically speaking, i can't waltz into a meeting of atheist headquarters international and demand a christian prayer. i can't traipse into a basketball game of another team and demand a prayer if they don't have one.


you bet they are. certainly you don't think they lock up the arena once the prayer starts.


it's not a custom in primarily muslim countries (or any other) to whip out a prayer mat before a game. it is an american custom (though arguably a dying one) to pray before sporting events. to say why don't we do "x" when it's not part of any customary behavior is pretty much irrelevant to the argument.

-M

Hi there!.

Ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?

I'm asking because we took a client to a game. The prayer started and he immediately got upset to the point that we had to take him back to his hotel and apologize profusely.

He was from India and apparently thought we had shanghaid him into some sort of religious ceremony prior to an NBA game.

Needless to say, we won't be taking anymore clients to games.

[Martin]

ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?

the context of my remark was under 'coercion'... while it's possible that neither you nor your client had ample opportunity to 'get the heck out of dodge' before the prayer began, nobody was physically forced to stay. nobody was 'coerced' to pray.

from what you've laid out, it seems more to me that your scenario is more of a product of cultural misunderstanding than anything. perhaps what you've stated is a good reason not to have a prayer at such an event... but it certainly isn't a good reason to prevent a group from doing so.

-M

[OKCMallen]

Hi there!.

Ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?

I'm asking because we took a client to a game. The prayer started and he immediately got upset to the point that we had to take him back to his hotel and apologize profusely.

He was from India and apparently thought we had shanghaid him into some sort of religious ceremony prior to an NBA game.

Needless to say, we won't be taking anymore clients to games.

I don't think non-citizens from foreign cultures are the target participant we're discussing here.