Recent trip to Dallas

[Patrick]

Hey guys, I didn't intend for this to be a Dallas bashing thread. I just merely wanted to stated my observations from my recent trip over the weekend.

Personally, I've never really liked Dallas. I just don't think there's any character to it. Concrete, concrete, and more concrete, as far as I'm concerned.

I do think OKC needs to learn from Dallas. Instead of focusing on building bigger and better, I think we need to focus on building a nicer first class town. Before we even consider building something as ambitious as a NFL stadium or something like that, I think we need to focus on beautifying our city by funding more streetscape projects, landscaping around town, breautifying our interstates and entryways, planting large trees, improving our parks, cleaning litter and enforcing anti-litter laws, etc. I think what sets cities like Tulsa apart from cities like Dallas is the pride that they have in the upscale artsy image they show. Dallas may indeed be trying to improve its arts district, but the trash and lack of culture really restrict their cause!

[okcpulse]

Actually, no one on here is bashing Dallas. Who on this forum has bashed Dallas, except for mranderson, but he has room to do so because he lived there, and obviously did not have a good experience. I would do the same.

I think all of us take lessons from Dallas. Nuclear2525 had some good points, and I understand where he is coming from, but this is not a Dallas bashing thread. It was a thread to reflect on simple observations of a big city, what disappointed Patrick, and what impressed him.

Is Dallas flat in natural scenery? Yes. It's not bashing, but a geographical fact pointed out. Rundown buildings in OKC are not the point. Discussing rundown areas of Dallas and observing what Dallas plans to do about blight is not bashing. It's a lesson worth learning to see how a big city takes action. So let's learn from other cities, as others have learned from us with MAPS.

[HOT ROD]

I think what is attracting people to Dallas are jobs and cheaper housing.

Hotrod, if you think Seattle traffic is bad, try sitting in the SF Bay Area traffic. It is horrific- hours of creeping along at 10 miles per hour. The homes there are so crammed together you can't sneeze without waking a neighbor. Hope you like sirens, barking dogs and loud music in the middle of the night, every night. SF is pretty and the ocean is nice (if you like freezing cold water with undertows that people drown in constantly) but it is nice to look at when the fog isn't covering the coast ( which is often - it is on the coast!) Most people think CA is so wonderful - until they try to live there. It's not the carefree beach image that most people think of ... it's not an ideal place to raise children unless you are extremely wealthy. The schools are really bad.

I lived there my entire life and yes I do miss the higher wages and the equity increase of my previous home and the way people are open minded and accepting of diversity, but I don't miss the traffic, horrible schools, conjestion, lines, smog, gangs or earthquakes.

Point being, every city has positives and negatives. I didn't like Dallas at all or Houston - dirty, scary places with tons of freeways, traffic and rude drivers. ( High rises just don't impress me)

But, I liked Galveston and South Padre because I do love the ocean (a warm tropical ocean).

So everyone has their preferences, it makes the world go round.

Karried, I know what you mean about bay area traffic, it seems the whole west coast has a traffic problem.

BUT

The bay area has more transit options than we do in Seattle. Not to mention, freeway options. And the bay area is almost three times the population of Puget Sound's 3.5 M. So traffic there is expected! Traffic here, well it should not be but it really really is!

And unlike Bay area, we have NO CHOICE but to sit in it!

[mranderson]

Karried, I know what you mean about bay area traffic, it seems the whole west coast has a traffic problem.

BUT

The bay area has more transit options than we do in Seattle. Not to mention, freeway options. And the bay area is almost three times the population of Puget Sound's 3.5 M. So traffic there is expected! Traffic here, well it should not be but it really really is!

And unlike Bay area, we have NO CHOICE but to sit in it!

Traffic problems are a state of mind. I have yet to encounter a stereotype traffice problem anywhere in California.

[Karried]

"Traffic problems are a state of mind. I have yet to encounter a stereotype traffice problem anywhere in California."

State of mind? It is much different when you are a visiting tourist . Chances are you aren't on 101 or 280/680 in commuter traffic hours every day while visiting.

Sitting in traffic for hours gets old when you do it twice daily. It takes away so much valuable time from your family and friends.

I'm not sure what stereotypes you are referring to, but the West Coast does have serious traffic problems. Anyone living and actually commuting there knows this very well. And it is only getting worse. We're talking Silicon Valley here!

I sat in commuter traffic for years on Highway 101 - bumper to bumper - almost never approaching the speed limit from the hours between 5-9am - and then from 2:30 -6:30pm crawling home.

My husband commuted to Fremont 45 miles and it took an hour and a half each way - sometimes two hours each way... he commuted for 16 years.

We were both in San Francisco the day of the earthquake and my husband drove over the bridge that collapsed that day... I've sat in traffic repeatedly trying to catch a plane, panicked because traffic was at a stand still (again), for hours I've sat in line after line coming to and from concerts at Shoreline - Palo Alto.

Been to Disneyland more times than I can count, traffic jams everywhere - San Diego, crawls along at a snail's pace for hours. Tahoe - coming home from skiing? With the rest of the Bay Area?
Try getting to a mall - it takes forever to get through all of the traffic lights and then try to park! It's a nightmare! And this is all without accidents and broken down vehicles - you should really see it then.

Trust me, I am very familiar with California traffic - I lived there 40 years.

[xrayman]

Karrie couldn't be more right. I have reason to be in SoCal three or four times a year and I am always glad to leave. I don't know where you've been, MRAnderson, (or at what times) but try I-5 through Los Angeles, 405, 210 in L.A.... And if that doesn't convince you it's not a "state of mind," try I-15 coming down from Poway, Carmel Valley into San Diego around 7:45 AM. If that's a state of mind - that explains the deteriorating state of mine.

[mranderson]

Karrie couldn't be more right. I have reason to be in SoCal three or four times a year and I am always glad to leave. I don't know where you've been, MRAnderson, (or at what times) but try I-5 through Los Angeles, 405, 210 in L.A.... And if that doesn't convince you it's not a "state of mind," try I-15 coming down from Poway, Carmel Valley into San Diego around 7:45 AM. If that's a state of mind - that explains the deteriorating state of mine.

I have done all of them. And various times of day and night. I have had NO major problems with LA traffic. Nor the Bay Area. I have more problems with the boneheads in Oklahoma City who are scared to drive.

Traffic is also attitude. It is what you make it.

[Karried]

Yeah, you are right about the drivers in OK who can't merge (well I've seen them everywhere), what is up with that?

Have you ever been behind someone who stops on the on- ramp? It is awful trying to floor it to merge 0-65 in two seconds!

Yeah, I guess if you have to commute for years - attitude is important, we tried to make the best of it and listen to tapes etc but it was still hard to be away from your family so many hours a day because of sitting in traffic.

Everywhere has problems - we just have to try to work with what we have.

[Midtowner]

I have done all of them. And various times of day and night. I have had NO major problems with LA traffic. Nor the Bay Area. I have more problems with the boneheads in Oklahoma City who are scared to drive.

Traffic is also attitude. It is what you make it.

Check this around Rush Hour. I played around with it for awhile today (around 5:30PST) and there's no comparison.

[HOT ROD]

I saw this about the nation's top 25 cities:

http://hotel-online.com/News/PR2005_...tsTracked.html

Top 25 Cities for General Business Travelers

1. Chicago
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach
3. Washington, DC (metro area)
4. New York
5. Atlanta
6. Houston
7. Boston (metro area)
8. Minneapolis-St. Paul
9. Dallas
10. Detroit
11. Denver
12. Phoenix-Mesa
13. St Louis, MO
14. Philadelphia
15. Seattle (metro area)
16. New Orleans
17. Tampa-St Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
18. Nashville, TN
19. Orlando
20. Las Vegas
21. Austin-San Marcos, TX
22. San Diego
23. San Francisco
24. Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
25. San Antonio, TX
.
Top 25 Cities for Convention / Conference/Seminar Travelers

1. Chicago
2. Las Vegas
3. Washington, DC (metro area)
4. Orlando
5. Atlanta
6. Dallas
7. San Francisco
8. Nashville
9. San Diego
10. New Orleans
11. Denver
12. San Antonio
13. Phoenix-Mesa
14. Los Angeles-Long Beach
15. Boston (metro area)
16. Philadelphia
17. Tampa-St Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
18. Austin-San Marcos, TX
19. New York
20. Seattle (metro area)
21. Detroit
22. St Louis, MO
23. Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
24. Minneapolis-St Paul
25. Houston

Notice that Chicago is #1 on both lists. WOW!! This country would not survive without Chicago. I knew the city controlled this nation, but I did not realize how much. Chicago is the number 1 business destination AND the number 1 convention/seminar destination!

No wonder its Train Station is number 1, it has two top 10 airports (and Ohare is still number 1 in airplane movements), it has the busiest bus terminal, and on and on. ...

Goodness, we think of New York as the power centre when in fact - Chicago quietly controls America's economy. I knew Chicago was number 1 for corporate headquarters but wow, I had no idea it was number 1 for conventions.

I only wish OKC could move into this crowd. Denver is 11 on both lists, pretty respectable. I think OKC could steal some convention business soon and join on that list. Maybe in 10 years, we could make the Top 30 business.

I just am amazed again about the impact of Chicago on this nation. All I can say is wow! No wonder Boeing moved its hq to Chicago. Im surprised the oil companies have been moving to Houston and not Chicago. Everything else is there.

someone on here said they love Chicago. I do have to say, it is my favourite mega-big city! Just the sheer impact on the country is absolutely AMAZING!!!

[rxis]

I've actually had better driving experiences in Dallas than in OKC when it comes to rude drivers. I like the flow of traffic more in Texas when there isn't backed up traffic.
Dallas reminds me of a much larger OKC.

[mranderson]

Check this around Rush Hour. I played around with it for awhile today (around 5:30PST) and there's no comparison.

One thing to remember. I have been there. I am the one who sees things out of MY eyes. The traffic is not as bad as many claim. I have had NO problems.

[soonerguru]

Give the politics a rest. Oklahoma City could stand to have a few more of these "leftish" views you talk about. Most of the progressive thinking, educated, gainfully employed people I know leave OKC at the first opportunity because they cannot stand the stifling, narrow-minded thinking that accompanies the right wing philosophy.

San Fran has always been a progressive, left-leaning city. Look it up. There has never been a "right wing" in San Franscisco. One of the reasons it is so successful is it is a paragon of progressive thinking. Get over your politics, and study a little history while you're at it.

[Midtowner]

One thing to remember. I have been there. I am the one who sees things out of MY eyes. The traffic is not as bad as many claim. I have had NO problems.

My apologies for offending your all-seeing, all-knowing wisdom. You have been to LA a few times, and so have I. I guess these daily traffic reports that show horrible traffic in L.A. have nothing on Anderson and his all-seeing eye. Just take a look,


Also, take a look at this list of annual hours that individuals lose by being delayed in traffic. Please note that L.A. is 40 full minutes ahead of the next city -- it's #1 in the U.S. for delays caused by traffic congestion. But heck, what do the Texas Transportation Institute, the Texas A&M University System know about traffic congestion compared to someone who has been to the city a few times and seen things with eyes.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0855647.html

ETA:
Disclaimer: Anderson, the above is not an attack on you. It's an attack on your methodology and your claims, which some pretty incontravertible data shows are dead wrong. It may be true that your traffic experience in L.A. was fine. That does not, however, translate into reality for the rest of the world. It's about as unscientific a method of examining things as is available. Here's scientific research that shows you are wrong if you were trying to say that L.A. doesn't have bad traffic. Let's accept that and move on.

[xrayman]

Give the politics a rest. Oklahoma City could stand to have a few more of these "leftish" views you talk about. Most of the progressive thinking, educated, gainfully employed people I know leave OKC at the first opportunity because they cannot stand the stifling, narrow-minded thinking that accompanies the right wing philosophy.

San Fran has always been a progressive, left-leaning city. Look it up. There has never been a "right wing" in San Francisco. One of the reasons it is so successful is it is a paragon of progressive thinking. Get over your politics, and study a little history while you're at it.

Whoa Nellie!!

Study a little history? I understand the Bay Area history very well. It's always been a leftist enclave and anybody that pays a lick of attention to politics and government knows this. I didn't know I gave you any other impression. If you think OKC has a lot to learn politically - from San Francisco - we are on different planets, my friend.

Just as "progressives" leave OKC due to the right's influence here - there are thinking people who leave these left wing bastions looking for common sense all the time.

Soonerguru, you say, "give the politics a rest".... politics plays a huge role in just about everything. That you and I don't think alike is just fine. The insults, though, as far as "learn some history while you're at it," can be left out.

[soonerguru]

Perhaps you're right and there are all of these sensible people fleeing liberal cities like San Francisco, Austin, Chicago, New York, DC, and Miami for Oklahoma City, but no actual statistics bear this out.

Perhaps there's something to the fact that these so-called "progressive cities" are growing a lot faster than, say, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Wichita and Fort Worth.

What is it all of these cities have in common? Well, they're a lot more politically liberal -- or even moderate -- than our cities. They are creative nerve centers where creative people migrate.

People move there for a lot of reasons, employment among them, but people want to live where they feel free to be themselves.

In OKC, to be in the heart of things, you best join the GOP, get a membership at a Southern Baptist church, and join the country club. That's where things happen.

If you're not in the club, good luck with all your future endeavors.

As a conservative, can you see the value of Oklahoma City becoming an attractive place to live for people of all ideologies, viewpoints and backgrounds, or would you rather it stay the way it is right now?

[Midtowner]

I'll take choice "B".

Although, I'd prefer libertarians to liberals if at all possible. Liberals bring just as much baggage as the country club-esque Conservatives. Also, I'd join a country club if I were rich. It's like a fraternity house for adults

Alas, I don't play golf.

If we could only get the LP to stop marketing themselves so horribly, they might have a shot...

[Frederick Lawton]

Also, you forgot the FW to go along with the D. Fort Worth is in the process of a major waterfront overhaul. The Museum of Modern Art in FW is one of the best in the nation. OKC doesn't have a suburb to compete with this.

Oh, now you've done it! You're going to have every blogger in Fort Worth logging on here to whip you about the fact that Fort Worth is not a suburb of Dallas.


Edit> Of course, now I see I have thrown a fork in the thread since I replied to something on page one instead of reading all the replies. But then again, looks like the thread has already gotten off track a few times.

[vcross]

I live in Dallas and it is interesting to read OKC views on our city. I love living here and that's after traveling extensively to other large U.S. cities and around the world. No place is perfect. You take the good with the bad and Dallas has a whole lot of good to offer me.

Dallas must not be all that bad anyway: The metro population just passed 6 million in January 2005 with about 150,000 people moving here annually even during the recent recession. (I've seen a 5 million figure mentioned in other posts. That's a couple years old.)

I just found out about this forum on < forum dahht dallasmetropolis dahht com>. (Couldn't put in the URL or spell out dot without it prohibiting my message!)

I look forward to learning more about OKC... I lurk in the Houston forum and also read about Atlanta and Charlotte quite a bit. It's interesting to see that many of the same issues face ALL these cities.

[BADallas]

forum dallasmetropolis (I can't post a URL....you get the idea).

I grew up in OKC and have lived in Dallas for a few years. I thought that you would find the link above interesting. I'm not trying to start a feud but there is a thread under the City Issues folder that addresses the trip report.

[Patrick]

Hey guys, first I welcome you to OKC Talk! Oh, we weren't trying to bash Dallas or anything. Just making some observations. There are many great things about Dallas too, especially your burbs, shopping areas, excellent commuter rail system, and sports teams.

Hey, we'd love to hear comments on Dallas. I'm sure they'd help us out asd we continue to try to improve our city. Feel free to give us an update on what's gonig on in Dallas, especially in terms of downtown housing, DART, and the West End!

Thanks for the links to the sites.

By the way.....sorry for being unable to post links...we've just required a user to make 10 posts before he/she can post a link to prevent spammers from posting! Thanks for understanding.

[okcpulse]

Just visited the link, Patrick. The Dallas posters had some interesting and understanding things to say!

[Karried]

I checked it out too... they seem like nice enough people on that board except for a few expected standard Okie comments.

:surrender

I really believe the benefits of comparing cities it to try to hear other ideas on things that need to be improved upon and how it affects our own city, without being offended and taking it personally. I don't think anyone mentioned that the people of Dallas were not good people - just observations of things that we might do differently here to prevent the negative side effects of a big city.

We're all just trying to improve upon OKC and our image. When we talk about other cities it's to determine what we can do differently in our growing stages. We're not trying to be mean spirited.

The only first hand knowledge I have of Dallas (and this is with any large city) is seeing the homeless people, litter on the roads and lots of freeways and traffic. But that was inner city (?) near the Galleria Mall -

I imagine that the suburbs are just like OK are nice places to raise families and live. I think what puts most visitors off of larger cities is the congestion on the many freeways and the lack of greenery. That is why people move out of large cities into the suburbs. I could say the above about any larger city in the nation.

[Patrick]

Just visited the link, Patrick. The Dallas posters had some interesting and understanding things to say!

I also visited and posted my 2 cents. I'm glad that soem of them have looked at it as a learning experience. That's how I view Tulsa attacks on our city. For those that may want to view it: http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/

[Patrick]

I checked it out too... they seem like nice enough people on that board except for a few expected standard Okie comments.

:surrender

I really believe the benefits of comparing cities it to try to hear other ideas on things that need to be improved upon and how it affects our own city, without being offended and taking it personally. I don't think anyone mentioned that the people of Dallas were not good people - just observations of things that we might do differently here to prevent the negative side effects of a big city.

We're all just trying to improve upon OKC and our image. When we talk about other cities it's to determine what we can do differently in our growing stages. We're not trying to be mean spirited.

The only first hand knowledge I have of Dallas (and this is with any large city) is seeing the homeless people, litter on the roads and lots of freeways and traffic. But that was inner city (?) near the Galleria Mall -

I imagine that the suburbs are just like OK are nice places to raise families and live. I think what puts most visitors off of larger cities is the congestion on the many freeways and the lack of greenery. That is why people move out of large cities into the suburbs. I could say the above about any larger city in the nation.

Very true Karrie. In fact, I think Dallas' problems resemble our own, with traffic as the main exception. Beautification is the area we need to work on most. Establishing more upscale districts like Western Avenue would be helpful as well.

I have nothing personal against Dallas. In fact, it's a great place to shop and spend a weekend. But, each time I visit a place like Dallas, I always come back with ideas for our city. Comparing our city to other cities lets us know where we're at as a city.

I agree that Bricktown is nowhere close to being completed, but we're a lot further now than we used to be.

Comparing OKC to Dallas is also a little like comparing Buffalo to NYC, but we can still take the weigh the positives and the negatives about Dallas and use them to our advantage. Right now, I think we really need to focus on keeping our streets clean! Tulsa actually has the advantage there!

Dallas West End is blessed with shopping, which we need trememndously in our Bricktown area. But by the same token I don't want to rush development and end up with a lot of chain stores and restaurants!