State Casinos: Lucky Star

[Patrick]

I had never been to a state casino, so this evening I made a venture out to Lucky Star, just north of El Reno. I must say, I wasn't very impressed. All they really have there are electronic slots. I've been to Vegas and Tunica, and I must say, I was disappointed. but, what should I expect from a state that basically outlaws gambling. I think it's time that we legalize all forms of gambling in this state. I know the Baptists will tell you it brings crime and all, but I think that's a bunch of BS. They said the same thing before Remington Park came in, and it hasn't increased crime any. If anything, it's improved the east side of town.

I'm a Baptist myself, but I don't agree with the Baptists stance on gambling.

I'l be voting for the lottery and for the expansion of gambling in November.

[mranderson]

The "it brings in organized crime" does not cut it. Oklahoma has been a haven for organized crime since well before statehood. Pretty Boy Floyd was an Oklahoman, Bonnie and Clyde hung out here, The James Gang and the Dalton Gang all spent (and probably did) time here. Plus, remember Podie Poe? He is just one of several aledged to be racketeers.

Plus, this crap about the empoverashed or adictions. Again, no go. Most people that go to casinos have a lot of cash.

Plus. In Tunica, St. Louis and Kansas City? Where did I count the most out of state cars from?... Oklahoma.

Think about it.

[Patrick]

You're right.....they're going out of state anyways....and when they go out of state, our state loses the money on it. Heck, my fiancee just got back from Tunica. That's money that could've been spent here in the state. As a Baptist, it's sad to see that my fellow church-goers are so against gambling. I've talked to many of our leaders at the Baptist Building and they still haven't been able to show where the Bible shows that gambling is immoral. They simply say..."it takes advantage of the poor" and "it brings in crime." Well, if the poor aren't going to gamble they'll just go bet on the Sooners game. I don't see the difference. At least if gambling were legalized it would ge controlled and the state would make money off of it. I'll be voting for the lottery in November.

[Luke]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I called Winstar Casinos (http://www.winstarcasinos.com) which is at exit 1 on I-35 in southern Oklahoma. I asked them about poker and blackjack. They said that they are waiting for the vote in November. If it passes, and they expect it to, Las Vegas style gaming will finally be legal in Oklahoma. Also, Thunderbird Casino East of Norman as well as Winstar has already bought the blackjack tables to be set up the day that law passes.

I went to Vegas a couple times this summer. Had a blast! Just wish I could play some blackjack and poker a little closer to home.

[Patrick]

Hey Luke thanks for the info. Actually, my fiancee and I made it down to Thuderbird Wild Wild West Casino awhile back to see what it was like, as they just built a new facility awhile back. I was extremely impressed. They have over 70,000 square feet with over 1200 gaming machines, a full service restaurant, a bingo hall, gift shop, etc. I really thought the theme was cool. It has a complete western theme.....looks kind of like a western town inside and out. It reminded me of Sam's Town! Last weekend they just opened a new addition with even more gaming machines. Like you mention, they've left some free space available for the Vegas style gaming, if it's passed in November. If it isn't passed, they told me they were just going to fill the space with more gaming machines to bring their total up to 2000 machines. But, as you said about Winstar, the Shawnee tribe, owners of Thunderbird, fully expect it will pass. Here's Thunderbird's site: http://www.shawneecasinos.com/?CFID=...7E65D600921347

I'm glad you brought up Winstar Casino, in Thackerville, OK. It's run by the Chickasaw tribe, and is the largest casino in the state, with over 120,000 square feet. They have 2,000 gaming machines, 3 full service restaurants, a bingo hall, etc. It has a Circus theme, similar to Circus Circus in Vegas! It's larger than a lot of Tunica/Vegas casinos, except without Class 3 gaming! Here's their website: http://www.winstarcasinos.com/?CFID=...7E65D600921347
My fiancee, her mom, and myself have been wanting to go down there.

My finacee and her mom went to Tunica earlier in the summer.....they stayed at Horseshoe Casino. It had a 900+ room hotel, but the casino was about the size of Thunderbird, except with Class 3 gaming of course.

Oh, by the way, if casinos interest you, be on the look out for the new Cherokee Casino in Tulsa.....it will have over 80,000 square feet of casino space, a couple of restaurants, a 150 room hotel, a full 18 hole golfcourse, etc. It opens September 8th, and will be Oklahoma's first resort casino. It will be just east of downtown Tulsa.

Of course, we never go to casinos to try to make money...more just to have fun! I think with casinos it's all the approach you take when you go there.

[swake]

And the planned Creek Nation Casino (on the site of the current casino) in Tulsa is supposed to be even larger than the Charokee one, it's going to cost over $100 million and include a hotel, theater, shopping mall, riverwalk (it's on the river on Riverside at 81st, a mile north of the Riverwalk complex in Jenks) and plans to be incorperated into Riverparks with water taxis moving people from the casino to riverparks to the Jenks Riverwalk and Aquarium and a new planned riverfront shopping complex on the Tulsa side of the river at 101st.

[Patrick]

Wow swake...I didn't realize this. Any idea when this will be completed?

[swake]

I don't know about completed, construction is supposed to start in summer '05, I assume so the outcome of the vote can figure into the floorplans.

[Dad]

I have to strongly disagree with the rest of the room here. We're much better off as a state without a lotto or casinos. I don't understand Mr. Anderson's "No go," but it's a proven fact that gambling is an addictive behavior that destroys thousands of families every year. We don't need to attract MORE crime and MORE drugs by having casinos.

[Keith]

Dad, I am with you. I also agree that gambling is addictive and a great way to destroy a family. To me, it is just plain wrong.

[swake]

A state without casinos???

What state do you live in, denial?

The Creek Casino I referred to is open, has been for years. The $100 million is for an expansion that is planned with or without the vote passing. Most of the expansion is to make the casino a resort that people from out of state would visit. The Cherokee Casino and Resort is open now in Claremore.

True all they have now is slot machines and bingo, but slot machines are the biggest money makers for casinos and the worst odds for the gambler. The vote would allow other games, but, these games are not as in favor of the house as the slots and would bring in more out of state people to the EXISTING casinos and give a percentage of the proceeds to the state.

I live not too far from the Creek Casino in Tulsa and it’s packed, all day and all night. The Osage tribe just opened a big new casino in Sand Springs just west of downtown and are opening an even bigger casino in North Tulsa soon. That will bring the Tulsa metro area to one off track betting center, two horse tracks, seven casinos and who knows how many bingo halls. Gambling is here, the vote will not change that. The question is will the state be able to get some revenue out of it and will the state be able to regulate it.

[Patrick]

I don't disagree with the fact that gambling can cause addiction and can ruin some families. But, those families are probably destined to be ruined anyways. I guess that's not the point though.

I do disagree that casinos bring crime and drugs. There's no proof of that anywhere. That's the same excuse the General Baptist Convention of Oklahoma made when the state was considering the approval to build Remington Park. So far I haven't seen any increased crime or drugs out near Remington. If anything, the racetrack has somewhat improved that part of town.

And the crime rate in Vegas or Tunica isn't anything compared to the current crime rate in our city. Ours is one of the worst.

Anyways, swake I agree with you. Note there will be two issues on the Nov. ballot, one for the lottery, and one pertaining to gambling. The latter one won't increase the number of casinos in the state, but will just allow the state to receive tax money from the Indian-run casinos. I personally agree with this....I'm tired of the Indian casinos making a killing on profits without having to pay the state a dime. By voting no on this bill, you'll actually probably help increase gambling in the state, as it will leave more money in the hands of the tribes, thus giving them more money to spend on developing casinos.

Regardless, as swake says, these bills won't affect the current presence of Indian casinos. They're pretty much on their own and free to do whatever they want. And they'll keep growing as we give them the opportunity to....i.e., by not voting yes for the gambling bill that will allow us to tax casinos.

The lottery bill is a whole other issue though. If you're really against gambling, you should probably vote no on that one.

[okcpulse]

Well, here we go with this moral crap. The "casinos bring more crime and drugs" bit is as old as dirt. Even though I respect the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I don't put much stock in gambling opponents. I used to go to Lucky Star Casino on a regular basis. Never broke me, nor my family. I won some... I lost some. I didn't go for money. I went for fun, and I enjoyed myself. Sure beats a church potluck (oh... wait... that's gluttony. Hmmm... I wonder if this is getting anywhere?)

But Keith IS right about those who get addicted to gambling. Families do get destroyed. But is that a REAL reason to keep gaming banned in Oklahoma? If so, then perhaps we should ban shopping. That gets VERY addictive, and credit card debts from shopping are mounting. While we're at it, let's ban credit cards in Oklahoma. Those are addicting, too. Families get destroyed from that as well. Trading stocks? The stock exchange is the most disguised casino in existence! Instead of crap tables and slot machines, we're using ticker symbols and trading volume along with stock value (more or less casino chips) to do our gambling. That can get addicting as well, especially if you don't know what you're doing. Lose your bet, and not only is your family broke, but jobs get lost and homes get repossessed! So, let's ban trading stock in Oklahoma, because that destroys families too.
Oh, and, yeah! Let's ban the state fair midway! Your putting your money down on a game of chance for a prize, and what's worse about the midway, the vendors rip your a** off! Refuse to pay, and they pull a knife on you.

So, what am I getting at? The point is, it's not the entertainment that destroys families. It's personal irresponsibility. And that's not confined to casino gaming. I seldom gamble, but when I do, I have a limit. If I lose it, I'm done and it's time to go to dinner. If I win, I take my winnings and leave the casino, stash it in the bank and use it for emergencies. Not once did I experience any crime related to gambling, and it sure didn't get me on drugs, because I don't do drugs.

But think about this. See, I am a believer in Christ. And if I ever won my millions at a casino, the Lord is due a huge chunk of my winnings for blessing me. Does that make me a heathen? Does it?

[Keith]

Most people do have a limit on how much money they gamble, however, not that many people are that disciplined. okcpulse is right.......it is personal irresponsibility. Unfortunately, some people just can't seem to control themselves. Some will get lucky and start winning....and winning...and winning. Then they will start losing....and losing, in hopes that they will start winning again. Their adrenaline gets pumping, and then money is not an object.

We all know that the rich people will not be gambling...they don't need to. It will be the middle-low class people, the ones who can't afford it. Face it, some humans are just not very smart. They play the game of luck and they lose...and their families lose.

I'm glad to see okcpulse is a believer in Christ, as I am. I have talked to many pastors who have told me that if a "church member" or somebody else was to win in gambling, and wanting to give an offering to the church, that it would not be accepted.....because it came from gambling. They consider it "dirty " money, and so do I. Although, there are a few churches that are desperate enough, they would take it.

I want to give to the Lord the money I make the old fashioned way...by earning it, not by luck.

[Patrick]

Hey okcpulse, I agree with you wholeheartledly. All of the points you make are right on. I fwe ban gambling, we need to ban the stock market, shopping, food, the state fair, alcohol, sex (sorry guys, can't have any more sex with your wives), etc.

Now, I'm a Christian and even an Oklahoma Southern Baptist......and I do agree with Keith that some people take gambling to the extreme and it ruins some families. But so can other things as well. My question is, where do we start banning?

And a lot of Baptist churches don't have a lot of room to talk....how many church raffles have I been to in my lifetime at Baptist church block parties??? Raffles are giving money to buy tickets to try to win a prize....hmmmmm, sounds very similar to a lottery. But churches claim that it's not dirty money like gambling because the proceeds are going to missions, building fund, or whatever. I personally don't see the difference. It's all the same concept.

[suzi]

I think the MAIN point in all of this is not religion. It is the fact that people that live here in Oklahoma ARE going out of state to gamble (whether we approve or not) and that is money that we could use here in OUR state.

[Patrick]

suzi, I think it depends on which side of the issue you look at. For those opposing the lottery, it is clearly a moral or religious issue. For those in favor of a lottery its cleary to keep more money in our state for education and the like.

I just question the approach that the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma (BGCO) uses though. Time and time again, in the Baptist Messenger, the state paper for the BGCO, Anthony Jordan, the executive director of the BGCO (and my former pastor), and John Yeats, the editor for the Baptist Messenger, have stated how gambling is sinful and how the Bible clearly points out how gambling is wrong. Well, I confronted both of them about this recently. Neither one could provide any scripture backing up their views. They asked for more time to do some reasearch on the issue. I granted them time. About 3 months later I contacted both. They both said they had done an exhaustive study on it and couldn't find anywhere in the Bible where it directly said that the action of gambling was wrong.

Instead, both men decided to change their focus. Their new focus became, "well, gambling is wrong because it takes advantage of the poor and ruins families."

Well, I can fully agree with that and I understand them oppisng the lottery for those reasons.

But to sit there and say the Bible condemns it, is flat out wrong.....I felt wronged by my very own denominational leaders for lying to me without knowing all of the facts.

Oh, and by the way, rich people gamble just as much as poor people. Last time I was at Thunderbird, there were more Lexuses, Lincolns, and Cadillac's in the parking lot than anything else. Same can be said for Lucky Star.

Regardless of whether one agrees with gambling or not, I think Keith's point of view is acceptable......gambing does impact the well-being of some families. I do agree with my denominational leaders on that one. And by the way, even with this reason given for opposing the lottery, this is still a moral and ethical reason! So, I think the statement that I made at the beginning of this post still stands true: for those opposing the lottery it's more on the grounds of moral issues, for those in favor of the lottery it's more on the grounds of keeping money from leaving our state.

[swake]

Rich people don’t gamble???

The man has never been to Vegas!

Actually of my friends, the more money they have, the more they gamble. Now I would agree that rich people don’t go to Oklahoma Casinos much (not now anyway) and they don’t play slots much, they most definitely gamble. I have friends that almost have monthly standing tickets on the Southwest flight from Tulsa to Vegas and are VIP members at the Palms.

[Joe Schmoe]

I don't gamble very often & I limit my cash so it doesn't ever hurt even if I lose everything. I love horse races, I bet on the names or colors... If I win its even more cool because it is so random.

But I leave the decision to gamble to the individual. I mostly object to the parochial attitude some have against "the Poor." We can somehow believe that they are childlike & possibly ignorant. (Why else would they be poor?) This is a holdover from Victorian times when poverty was associated with idleness & low morality.

College educations can help you make a good living, but they don't confer wisdom. I know more than a few wise people with high school educations & several phds that I wouldn't trust to have enough sense to pour piss from a boot if the instructions were printed on the heal.

Lots of things can destroy families & self control is all that prevents damage.

There are social costs for some who can't control themselves, but not everyone. So don't tell me God hates gambling & then not be able to find it in his inerrant word.

And don't tell me that it hurts the poor like they are some childlike class that needs Big Brother to keep them away from sin.

And on a side note: I remember when Horse Racing was going to destroy families & usher in organized crime.

Has it?

I also remember when liquor by the drink was going to destroy families & kill children.

Has it?

[mranderson]

First, I would like evidence that would withstand a court challange PROOVING that casino gaming causes addiction. It does not. After all, just because someone drinks an alcholoic beverage, does that make them an addict (alcoholic)? No. Just because someone has sex, does that make them addicted to sex? No. Just because someone CHOOSES BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL to enter a gaming establishment or buy a lottery ticket, does not mean they are an addict. People of all walks of life and all incomes go to casinos and buy lottery tickets. The reason people are so misinformed as to believe gaming causes addiction and a lottery causes an addiction is because the majority of the people you see winning these mega jackpots are low brow hicks.

No go? You bet (pun intended). I do not buy that crap about crime and addiction. It just makes no sense. If it was true, the crime rate in Las Vegas would be so high the minute you walked off the jet Bridge at McCarren you would be met by a crip or a blood with a knife or an oozie.

Casino gaming is VERY highly regulated. Even if you sneeze incorrectly, your license is yanked. It is not the days of the mob owning majority interest in the casinos. It is a VERY honest business. Plus, cheats are arrested and prosecuted on felonies at a quick pace. Very few people walk into casinos to commit crimes.

Plus, it is MY right to enter a casino. It is YOUR right not to enter one. Why take away my right just because of your beliefs. Makes no sense to me.

Read what Joe Smoe said. He is correct on his points about this tired, obsolete argument about crime and addiction.

Plus. I bet I find your minister yelling for joy (or Joy depending on if he brings his mistress) when he wins that pot at the crap table.

Think about it.

[mranderson]

Another thing. And answer honestly. Do not give a fake answer just to make your point look good.

Has the Indian casinos such as Wild West Casino created more crime and CAUSED the addiction of any gamblers?

Think about that before you stereotype the industry with falsehoods.

[Patrick]

I think you guys have really expressed some great opinions both for and against gambling. Having a diversity in opinions is what makes a forum like this one interesting. And it's been great watching you guys state your opinions, without trying to attack the other person. I commend you. I know in a lot of forums I've deal with in the past, people tend to take things personal and can start really attacking the person instead of discussing the issue!
Anyways, this thread has provided some great discussion on the issue of gambling. Thanks everyone for participating and expressing your opinions.

[okcpulse]

Regardless of how opponents try to sway my vote, I already have my mind made up. I am voting yes on the lottery AND the tribal gaming compact/racetrack casino issues. If I had a ballot in hand right now, "for" would be marked. The "against" option wouldn't even attract my attention.

[Luke]

Hey, I visited Winstar Casino today. My first casino visit in Oklahoma. I put a post on my blog about it. Check it out.

http://theoklahoman.blogspot.com

[Midtowner]

The Oklahoman had an interesting read about the Casinos that are being run by the Cheyenne/Arapaho tribes. Apparently, they are ignoring an indian court order that requires them to disperse money according to set parameters, e.g. 16% to senior services, etc. They are ignoring it in favor of the old system in which 8 tribal leaders/businessmen are approached with individuals in need that can petition them for aid. Those businessmen get to disperse the money as they see fit (and if you don't see the corruption that is guaranteed with that system, you're blind).

The way it sounds, there'd be less corruption if we let the mafia start up a casino in the middle of Bricktown.