Buying Downtown

[sdsooners]

I don't have any exciting news, but rather wanted to get everyones thoughts on something. My wife and I are seriously considering buying at either the Central Ave Villas or Lofts at Maywood. We don't have children yet but hope to soon, so we will probably grow out of what we can now afford in 5 years or so. I can accept paying $225/sf but am really worried about resale and app/depreciation in 5+ years with so much new construction at various price points. Anybody have any thought or reasons why I should/shouldn't be worried?

[metro]

I live/own downtown for several years now and don't regret it. IMO you are buying a lifestyle. When did America become about buying a home for investment instead of buying a home to live in and have a lifestyle. I realize you can't loose money, but that's one reason we started having the housing bubbles is because all the banks catering to the wacky investors trying to make a "sweet flip". You may have enough room at Central Ave. Villas but Maywood Lofts are at a cheaper pricepoint, so they should at least maintain if not appreciate pretty well.

Here's also an article from today's Daily Oklahoman about buying downtown. If you go to the link, there is also a video.

Many finding change in lifestyle is excitingBy Heather Warlick
Staff Writer

Billy Garrett sold his home in the suburbs in 2005 because he wanted a more urban lifestyle. The former Edmond resident decided to buy a home at the Brownstones at Maywood Park. His family has business interests in the development of the area, and he knew a brownstone would be a good investment.

"I believe that Oklahoma City is going to be growing in leaps and bounds. It's going to take a little more time, but I wanted to get in on the ground floor before prices skyrocketed,” he said.

Two months ago, he moved in to his new brownstone. Just blocks from Bricktown and downtown Oklahoma City, he has stunning views from his fourth-floor covered patio.

"I went to law school in New York City, and you can't find anything like this there,” he said.

His brownstone is about 3,700 square feet, and he chose traditional colors and textures to finish the interior with earth-tone carpet, wood blinds, banisters and other accents. Granite countertops in the kitchen and bathrooms give the home a warm feel that contrasts sharply to the modern, minimalist styles found in most of the model homes in the new urban developments in Oklahoma City.

Since moving in to his brownstone, Garrett said he has enjoyed being so close to the restaurants in Bricktown, and he is excited about walking to NBA basketball games.

"One bad thing is that there's not a grocery store nearby,” he said. Though his new home is near the railroad tracks, he said he can barely hear the train go by because his home is well-insulated against sound. That insulation also helps keep his heating and cooling bills low.

"It only cost about $150 to cool the place last month, and I keep it cold,” he said.

Garrett's favorite room in the brownstone is the fourth-floor great room, which overlooks Bricktown and downtown Oklahoma City. He said he loves the feel of living downtown and doesn't mind not having a yard.

"That's great for me. The only drawback is I don't want to get a big dog in here. You know, I'd like a dog,” he said.

Though the neighborhood is quiet now, construction workers are busy building what Garrett thinks eventually will be a bustling community.

"I want younger people to move down here, and I think it will happen,” he said. "In Oklahoma City, people want to see something built first before they move down here and see how it's going to go. They don't want to jump in and be the first one. I'm a risk-taker, I guess. I saw this as a great investment opportunity, to be the first one down here.”

NewsOK.tv

[metro]

Garrett, I disagree with you. There are PLENTY of us young professionals taking a gamble on downtown, well before you came along. He failed to mention it's the upper crust who likes to wait and see before buying, instead of us young risk takers. Granted there are exceptions, but most of us younger folks moved downtown long before there was stuff to do and without hesitation.

[Pete]

"One bad thing is that there's not a grocery store nearby,”

I know we'd all love to see a full grocery store in downtown/midtown but there is a Safeway at 18th & Classen, which is less than two miles from the Brownstones. And of course, two more stores at 23 & Penn.

I seriously doubt that the majority of people that live in OKC travel less than 2 miles to shop for groceries. And in places like Edmond, it's often considerable farther.

I bet we'll see a small market of some type pop up in the Maywood Park area, as there will soon be hundreds of new units opening up.

[LordGerald]

Follow the link from OKCBusiness.com for more info on living downtown...

OKCBusiness - Oklahoma City Business News

If you pick up the print version, there's a graphic chart which details the occupancy rate, price range, availability, et al.

[Kerry]

I don't have any exciting news, but rather wanted to get everyones thoughts on something. My wife and I are seriously considering buying at either the Central Ave Villas or Lofts at Maywood. We don't have children yet but hope to soon, so we will probably grow out of what we can now afford in 5 years or so. I can accept paying $225/sf but am really worried about resale and app/depreciation in 5+ years with so much new construction at various price points. Anybody have any thought or reasons why I should/shouldn't be worried?

It doesn't matter what house you live in or where it is located - when you have kids you will outgrow it. Your resale concerns are valid but it will be just as risky no matter where you buy.

[betts]

I'm moving to Maywood Park. I don't think resale in that many years will be a problem, because of the proximity of the Maywood area to the CBD and Bricktown. It's going to be difficult to get closer, and as the area fills in, it will become far more attractive.

[sdokc]

I currently live (rent) in the downtown area and soon I'll be working here. And as a young professional, I'm very interested in the Maywood Lofts or Central Ave Villas due to their proximity and price points. I think there's certainly a risk but I don't think resale will be a problem since there are so many things going on in downtown/midtown (nba, housing/retail development, corporate office construction/relocation, etc). The hard decision for me is deciding which of the two I want to buy. But I think that is an entirely different topic altogether.

[Pete]

betts, did you buy a Brownstone or one of the lofts?

[OKCCrime]

At the risk of getting the urbanites in an uproar, you might want to look at the following statistics before plopping down 200k-400k on a 2 bedroom condo in downtown and instead think about a 3-bedroom home that you won't need to sell in 5 years. There are some nice ones in your price range in Mesta Park, Crown Heights, and Edgemere Park that are still just a bike ride away from downtown. Furthermore, if you go into a historic district, you're likely to see more appreciation and a greater sale price when/if you move out.


Twice as hard to sell a 2 bedroom compared to a 3 bedroom.


OKC has an avg of $75/ sq.ft. (compare to the $225 that you mention)


The more bedrooms the more appreciation in dollars....

Consider that you will pay approximately $14-28k in realtor's fees if you move out of a condo in 5 years... or save that amount if you move into a larger home now.

With respect to finding a buyer in 5 years, I can't see demand to buy a used condo going up given that there will likely be many more, newer condos available. This fact might negatively affect the amount of appreciation you are likely to see. However, there could be a big move towards 'urban' living given gas prices and all.. hard to tell what will happen in 5 years.

Maybe I'm missing something, but for young professionals who are expecting to have a family, a small downtown condo doesn't seem to be a smart move, at least not at those prices.

[OKCMallen]

I don't think it is at all. People are wearing it as a badge of honor to move downtown first and pay those prices. I am cool with that- no big deal. But it simply doesn't seem to make financial sense at the moment.

[Pete]

Crime, I've made similar points in the past. There are lots of affordable homes in those nearby neighborhoods.

However, if you are an empty nester or a young person just starting out, dealing with the headaches of an older home is probably not for you. Plus, the floorplans and amenities of those homes are very different than how most people want to live today.

If it was me, I'd be looking hard at University Park and the Mesta areas, but even as a very handy person that has done and paid for tons of remodeling projects, I know buying one of those homes would be a massive undertaking.

Plus, your utility bills will be exponentially higher.

[OKCMallen]

.

However, if you are an empty nester or a young person just starting out, dealing with the headaches of an older home is probably not for you. Plus, the floorplans and amenities of those homes are very different than how most people want to live today.

I am a young person just starting out and am priced out of the market, but not for a three-bedroom house on 50th. I know we have lower-priced housing in the works...but between the high cost and questionable appreciation of the properties, ESP when the cheaper housing comes in, you just kind of have to wonder...

[betts]

betts, did you buy a Brownstone or one of the lofts?

I bought a brownstone, unfinished, so I won't be moving in until this winter. I'm an about to be empty nester, and I want the fun of living downtown, along with the easy maintenance and lower utility costs of a townhouse. Our housing prices are so low compared with other cities, that I'm still not worried about price per square foot. There are plenty of places in OKC and Edmond where square foot prices are comparable or higher, regardless of what the local average is.

[OKCCrime]

However, if you are a young person just starting out, dealing with the headaches of an older home is probably not for you.

To the contrary, when you are young and just starting out is exactly the time to buy an older home and fix it up yourself. When you are young, landscaping, repainting, and remodeling bathrooms are adventures that you can tackle yourself rather than hiring expensive contractors. Furthermore, when you are early in your career, and before starting a family, you will have proportionately more free time on your hands to do this work. Buying an older home when your career is hot and your family is growing is a recipe for a stress induced heart attack.

Buy an older home in good shape, fix it up in your free time when you are young, build a career, start a family, enjoy your home, your family, your job, retire, and then move downtown.

Welcome to Downtown, Oklahoma City, a premier empty nester / retirement community.

[betts]

To the contrary, when you are young and just starting out is exactly the time to buy an older home and fix it up yourself. When you are young, landscaping, repainting, and remodeling bathrooms are adventures that you can tackle yourself rather than hiring expensive contractors. Furthermore, when you are early in your career, and before starting a family, you will have proportionately more free time on your hands to do this work. Buying an older home when your career is hot and your family is growing is a recipe for a stress induced heart attack.

Buy an older home in good shape, fix it up in your free time when you are young, build a career, start a family, enjoy your home, your family, your job, retire, and then move downtown.

Welcome to Downtown, Oklahoma City, a premier empty nester / retirement community.

Actually, the person who bought the townhouse next to mine is young, as is the person a few houses down, and I think they're both single. It's not an ideal place for anyone with a big family, but you could easily have one to two children in the larger Maywood Park brownstone. A very wealthy person, similar to what has been done many times in NYC could actually buy two brownstones and combine them for 5,000 to 7,000 square feet and raise a very large family. I doubt that will happen, but it's not an impossibility, and it would still cost less than a house of that size in Nichols Hills.

[Pete]

To the contrary, when you are young and just starting out is exactly the time to buy an older home and fix it up yourself.

I assure you not everyone feels this way.

When you are starting out, you don't typically have a lawnmower, power tools and the experience to tackle such projects.

My first buy was a condo for exactly that reason -- and because I didn't want to be a slave to a home. As I got older, I acquired more tools and knowledge and now do most renovation work myself.


The point is there are thousands of single-family homes all over the metro but very few condos/townhouses in the central city. It's really one of the few segments of the OKC housing market where scarcity enters the equation, which is commonly found in other communities.

[OKCCrime]

Actually, the person who bought the townhouse next to mine is young, as is the person a few houses down, and I think they're both single.

I'm honestly surprised. It's the rare young professional that can afford a 600k-800k brownstone. Old money must be involved.

A very wealthy person, ... could actually buy two brownstones and combine them for 5,000 to 7,000 square feet and raise a very large family.

At 1.6M + renovation costs, that would be quite the investment. Mr. Trump, any interest in starting a family in OKC? or better yet, maybe Howard Schultz would be interested - I hear he likes basketball.

[betts]

At 1.6M + renovation costs, that would be quite the investment. Mr. Trump, any interest in starting a family in OKC? or better yet, maybe Howard Schultz would be interested - I hear he likes basketball.

Look at what the big houses are selling for in Nichols Hills and Edmond. I know of two recently that sold for over 2 million in Nichols Hills in the upper 5,000 to 6,000 square feet size range. There are definitely houses in that price range in Edmond and Gaillardia.

[OKCMallen]

I assure you not everyone feels this way.

When you are starting out, you don't typically have a lawnmower, power tools and the experience to tackle such projects.

My first buy was a condo for exactly that reason -- and because I didn't want to be a slave to a home. As I got older, I acquired more tools and knowledge and now do most renovation work myself.


The point is there are thousands of single-family homes all over the metro but very few condos/townhouses in the central city. It's really one of the few segments of the OKC housing market where scarcity enters the equation, which is commonly found in other communities.

I'm with Pete. I have the free time and energy to do renovation, but I don't have the know-how and I don't have the accumulated tools, and moreover, I don't have the extra disposible income to go buy, say, a $500 piece of equipment everytime I need it. Makes serious renovations become difficult.

[OKCCrime]

Look at what the big houses are selling for in Nichols Hills and Edmond. I know of two recently that sold for over 2 million in Nichols Hills in the upper 5,000 to 6,000 square feet size range.

Yeah, but consider SDSooners's poor kids...

At Maywood, they will go to Dunbar Elementary School where only 40% of students score satisfactory or above in reading on the State Criterion Reference Tests and only 58% for math. (School Demographics and Statistics).

In Nichols Hills, they will go to Nichols Hills Elementary School where 93% of students score satisfactory or above in reading on the State Criterion Reference Tests and 92% for math. (School Demographics and Statistics).

Looks like those lower electric bills will be offset by much larger private school tuitions.

[betts]

Those kids are already going to Westminster, Casady and Heritage rather than Nichols Hills elementary for the most part.

But, I think that one of the best things that could happen to OKC schools is to bring back an infusion of middle class and upper middle class families who have been accustomed to parental involvement and have higher expectations of teachers. A rising tide lifts all boats..... In addition, tax bases are improved with this kind of new construction downtown. I know all sorts of adults who went to public schools in OKC proper and got great educations, but that is because of the wide range of demographics in OKC schools atthat time. When there was a mass exodus of professionals and middle class families to Edmond and the other suburbs, it hurt our city schools. If we could reverse that trend, it would be great for everyone. I think private schools, while the education is good, are bad for kids because they live in the rarified air of people just like themselves. It's good for kids to go to school with other children with different ethnic and economic backgrounds, IMO.

[soonerguru]

It's good for kids to go to school with other children with different ethnic and economic backgrounds, IMO.

I agree completely. That's why my wife and I are moving our daughter from a private school to a public school. I should add, though, that it is a public magnet school with great academics.

[johnnyincog]

many people scoffed at the idea of the centennial selling for $300 sq/ft. there is currently a unit there listed for $400 sq/ft. its always impossible to predict the future of the economy, but i don't think as the market matures that people will lose money with good contruction in a prime area at $225 sq/ft. its ridiculous to use the avg price per sq ft in okc as comparison. these properties are in no way avg. they are premium and i think the market will support it.

[Midtowner]

Maybe I'm missing something, but for young professionals who are expecting to have a family, a small downtown condo doesn't seem to be a smart move, at least not at those prices.

That's our problem. While we'd love to do it, we can't justify the price tag. This market seems more geared to empty-nester old professionals who actually have a lot of cash to dump on a home.

-- or trust fund babies.