Berry Tramel and "Message Boards"

[edcrunk]

"backwater and retarded"

mmmm... the type of girls i like to get with!
oakleehomeuh, yeah!

[solitude]

I like the above comments on the anonymity of the internet and how it enables people to act in ways they never would otherwise and say/write things they never would face to face.

I've read message boards on news media across the country and cringe to read some of the comments left.

It has been an issue with me for years because it disturbs me how people can insult, offend, hurt and humiliate others all behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity.

It's so easy to be mean or a bully behind a computer screen.

I've seen posters take on imaginary lives, personas and claim to be famous public figures, all because they thought they could and wouldn't be discovered. I find it so pathetic.

So.....what's the solution? Anybody could use any name to sign-up for a message board anyway. I know I've never used MY real name to sign-up for anything on the Internet. (Including here.) You have to weigh privacy and security issues.

I don't know how you could get people to attach their real names to message boards - and somehow verify it. You wouldn't want that anyway. We don't need an even bigger police state.

And think about recent history here at OKCTalk.............remember David Glover?

A pseudonym allows for straight talk that you might not otherwise give due to job or business status. I fail to understand how people don't understand this. Yes, it has the potential for abuse, but the difference between Karried and solitude on a message board, Oh GAWD the Smell or David Glover.....what's the difference? I'll tell you the difference: when you take unpopular positions using your real name, it can cost you. Look at the abuse David Glover took here. Had he done all of his postings as "AngryAtCorporateWelfare" he wouldn't have subjected himself to all the ridicule. Posters had a face with the name. He spoke at Council meetings, etc. Using his real name here just put him in search engines where anybody can now look him up and find people calling him every name under the sun. That looks great to a future employer! It very well could jeopardize future business and/or job opportunities for him in Oklahoma City. Just because he took a stand on a political issue! His house details were even posted here! That wouldn't have happened using a pseudonym.

There's two sides to every coin.

[Toadrax]

^^^win

Edit: It is only smart to keep your real name hidden when you are online. Everything you say can be used against you later, even used out of context.

My suggestion:
ANT 14DBI Patch Panel (best money I ever spent)

[Karried]

My issue isn't with people disclosing their real names.. that's usually not a great idea for a lot of reasons, especially if you plan on making comments that will come back to haunt you..

My issue is with people saying things online that they wouldn't say offline in public or to someone's face and hiding behind a psuedonym. That's cowardly.

David Glover isn't a villian.. he stood up for what he believed in. he wasn't insulting, racist, cruel or demeaning. I see no reason why an employer wouldn't want to hire him.. he at least, took a stand for something. True, it wasn't popular for us NBA fans, but there is no shame in standing up for what one believes in. I doubt there has been a backlash personally for him because of this message board.

[edcrunk]

ya know what... i don't agree with david glover in any way, but i respect him. he takes a stand for what he believes and takes the fall regardless of the consequences. many times i am at odds with solitude or metro, but i don't have the respect for them that i do have for david... because there is no website or real name for those guys.
i am a hardcore conservative and most of the people i perform for are liberals... but i will take a stand for what i believe in, even if it costs me gigs. i arguew with people on dallas dance music all day about politics... but i'm still a legendary dj in dallas and i still get booked. i'm sure it has cost me some bookings; but i think people can get past that. i may argue all night and day with someone, but i still treat them as an dear friend in person.
if i say something that pisses someone off... it's not hard to find me. if you want to call me out in public or even take a swing at me... you can do it.
i'm at the electro lounge every wednesday, venu every thursday and prowling around the hipster triangle (barmuda [50th n classen circle])every weekend.

i hate internet p!ssies....

i'm gonna go to an after party and sober up now.

thank you and God bless.

[solitude]

David Glover isn't a villian.. he stood up for what he believed in. he wasn't insulting, racist, cruel or demeaning. I see no reason why an employer wouldn't want to hire him.. he at least, took a stand for something. True, it wasn't popular for us NBA fans, but there is no shame in standing up for what one believes in. I doubt there has been a backlash personally for him because of this message board.

Who knows? I felt is was a lynch mob. His taking a stand wasn't the issue - it was the downright personal attacks he received for taking it. This is a conservative city and people who see a person is not well-liked (even ridiculed) for their <shudder> liberal </shudder> political beliefs might want to take a step back from that person as a possible employee or business associate. It's cruel, it's third-world like, but it happens. The people here treated him like he was some kind of alien. I remember at the time thinking it took guts to come on this forum with his real name. I still do. He obviously felt he could do that. However.....Some of us cannot.

It's not that we can't use real names because we're "Internet pussies" (the "famous" edcrunk's term), but because we have families to raise in Oklahoma City, value our associations, etc. However, some of our stands are extremely controversial - but we feel they still need to be heard! And Ed, I'm not talking about which DJ plays the best dance mixes and jeopardizing your position as a "legendary" club jock in Dallas (again Ed's own description) --- I'm talking about stands regarding public agencies, commissions, etc. that means stepping on some very big toes. The only real difficulties I could see for you, Ed, in using your real name (Smith, right?) is if you exposed all the names involved in the drug deals that go down - in droves - at these wonderful palaces of the underground music scene. Chances are, you won't be spilling any names using your real name or otherwise - so you're probably safe using whatever name you want. Though, Ed Crunk isn't your real name according to MySpace. See the problem when you put your name out there and leave a trail? You really should give it some thought.

Again, two sides to every coin.

But this thread is supposed to be about message boards in general and Berry Tramel saying that if we visit them "we're part of the problem." For years E.K. Gaylord and Ed Gaylord had a near monopoly on published opinion in this city. That's not true anymore and it's got a lot of old-timers at The Oklahoman terribly worried. I think Berry's been listening to them and working himself up into an anxious state over something where's there's no turning back. The monopoly is over.

[kevinpate]

Real name isn't an issue when you stay real. Popular or unpopular, if you are who you are in your views, then it doesn't matter whether you splay yourself out with the name momma gave ya or slip on a different tagline, though I for one am glad no one posts under the name thundercatbaronenergybisonsoncrackstampedingthepra irietrammelingsurreyswithfringeontop.

[Doug Loudenback]

I guess that it's my fault for even bringing up the anonymity issue up in the 1st place thereby diverting the thread from the main point about which we all apparently agree (Tramel's video). But, since we're talking about the sub-topic now, I'll add a couple of related observations.

1st, about David Glover. I'm pretty sure that I've said this before, but just in case I haven't, one thing that I do have for David is respect for identifying himself and for advocating what he considered to be a worthy position. I continue to regard some of his arguments baseless and often misleading, but, as a person, he has my respect. More, I met him face to face a couple of times when our paths crossed during the March 4 Vote campaign ...

... here at Cafe do Brazil ... that's David at the left ...



... and at Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill



... whoops, wrong David (I plead the time-honored legal defense of temporary wishful thinking) ...



... and I have confidence in my opinion that he is a nice and very decent human being -- which I could not have said with such assurance had I not met him personally. As far as the matter then at hand, I had no greater success in persuading him than he did me (of course). It turned out that I even know his mother, for god's sake, and I'm glad to have met him.

2nd, about anonymity abuse. For those of you who followed the NBA in the Hornets 1st year here (may have been the 2nd, though, my memory isn't sure), you probably know (because even if you didn't see it I've talked about it before) that some fellow set up a MySpace account using all of my personal information down to date of birth and photo from my regular website. The bogus web page contained outrageous information about me (at least some of which was untrue ). When learning about this, I complained to MySpace and after a 2 or 3 days, it was removed. I came to learn that this guy was bragging and laughing about his coup in a semi-private area at Hornets Report dot com to which only owners, mods, and trusted friendlies were allowed access. Although many there thought that was a hoot, at least a couple of guys objected to what he had done. The impostor was from Washington, not New Orleans, I'm told. Rather than disciplining the guy, the objectors themselves lost their access privilege to the area and were ultimately banned from the website.

So, while I can see that legitimate points are made concerning the value of anonymity, I am unfortunately in a position to be able to personally attest to its dark side, as well. And, in this example, it wasn't just "one," it was the "many" who owned that talk forum and who provided him safe harbor and happily so.

But, were I to begin anew "on the internet," I'd do nothing different. That's just how I feel about it. Had I masked who I am, I'd not have gotten to meet some really great people who not only have helped me with blog content in several articles but with whom I have formed some great friendships which are personally valuable to me. Too, I'd probably not have been invited to attend and photograph at least a few events at which I'd otherwise have had no place at the table, so to speak.

Each member of the internet community has to make his/her own call about wearing masks and I don't disrespect those who take that path. After all, V for Vendetta is one of my all-time favorite movies! For a time, I used it as part of my tag-line at Hornets Central, with some modification: Remember remember the 1st of November! But, those who, like David Glover, don't wear one gain my special respect in this digital universe in which we all fly around, literally, bit by bit.

[solitude]

2nd, about anonymity abuse. For those of you who followed the NBA in the Hornets 1st year here (may have been the 2nd, though, my memory isn't sure), you probably know (because even if you didn't see it I've talked about it before) that some fellow set up a MySpace account using all of my personal information down to date of birth and photo from my regular website. The bogus web page contained outrageous information about me (at least some of which was untrue ). When learning about this, I complained to MySpace and after a 2 or 3 days, it was removed. I came to learn that this guy was bragging and laughing about his coup in a semi-private area at Hornets Report dot com to which only owners, mods, and trusted friendlies were allowed access. Although many there thought that was a hoot, at least a couple of guys objected to what he had done. The impostor was from Washington, not New Orleans, I'm told. Rather than disciplining the guy, the objectors themselves lost their access privilege to the area and were ultimately banned from the website.

So, while I can see that legitimate points are made concerning the value of anonymity, I am unfortunately in a position to be able to personally attest to its dark side, as well. And, in this example, it wasn't just "one," it was the "many" who owned that talk forum and who provided him safe harbor and happily so.

Doug, Actually you just pointed out the two coins of anonymity in your post. There is the accountability and responsibility that comes with signing your real name on the Internet; and then there's the misuse of your personal information. Why did it happen? Because the Internet is a crazy unregulated place (as it should be) and you used your real name - and got burned! It's wrong, it's sick and it's hard to stomach when you see it happen to good people like you - but what happened to you is a big reason many of us don't give out our personal information on the Internet to anybody for any reason. Ever.

[plmccordj]

Anonymity is an important part of how it works and allows some things to be said that needs to be said and might not be said otherwise.

If you are going to fall something someone says on a message board without verifying it, the blame is a lack of critical thinking skills.

I agree with you on this. If they questioned it at all, they could have verified the validity in just a couple of minutes.

[Doug Loudenback]

Doug, Actually you just pointed out the two coins of anonymity in your post. There is the accountability and responsibility that comes with signing your real name on the Internet; and then there's the misuse of your personal information. Why did it happen? Because the Internet is a crazy unregulated place (as it should be) and you used your real name - and got burned! It's wrong, it's sick and it's hard to stomach when you see it happen to good people like you - but what happened to you is a big reason many of us don't give out our personal information on the Internet to anybody for any reason. Ever.

True enough. But, as I said, I'd not do anything differently ... heck, I might even wear that fake MySpace account as a badge of honor! The "fire" wasn't that hot and it surely didn't hurt me any, at least as far as I know. And without the non-anonymity, I'd not have had the positives, so there you go!

[solitude]

And without the non-anonymity, I'd not have had the positives, so there you go!

Very true - and there are a lot of those! Newbies to OKCTalk who haven't visited Doug Dawg's blog need to make it their next stop. You really do a fabulous job with it, Doug.

[edcrunk]

Some of us cannot.

It's not that we can't use real names because we're "Internet pussies" (the "famous" edcrunk's term),

infamous would be more appropriate. =-]

heh, i'm not shy about touting my credentials when i'm three sheets to the wind.

my bad, bro.

but because we have families to raise in Oklahoma City, value our associations, etc. However, some of our stands are extremely controversial - but we feel they still need to be heard! And Ed, I'm not talking about which DJ plays the best dance mixes and jeopardizing your position as a "legendary" club jock in Dallas (again Ed's own description)

btw, that is not self ascribed... it's what i hear everytime i'm back in dallas. it's also been on flyers when i'm booked there.

--- I'm talking about stands regarding public agencies, commissions, etc. that means stepping on some very big toes. The only real difficulties I could see for you, Ed, in using your real name (Smith, right?) is if you exposed all the names involved in the drug deals that go down - in droves - at these wonderful palaces of the underground music scene. Chances are, you won't be spilling any names using your real name or otherwise - so you're probably safe using whatever name you want. Though, Ed Crunk isn't your real name according to MySpace. See the problem when you put your name out there and leave a trail? You really should give it some thought.[/B]

well, i'm on the verge of opening another club and the stands i take can affect whether or not my business thrives. so thousands of dollars and my livelyhood is on the line (not to mention the fact that i need a new ACURA RL).

i don't see the problem with putting my name out there.
my real name is JAMES EDWARD SMITH. i live at nw 25th and douglas (asian district... wewt wewt!). during the day... i work at TARGET at 50th and north may. every wednesday i am at ELECTRO LOUNGE and at VENU every thursday. if one would want to spit in my face, debate whether or not obama is d*bag or even discuss the fact that on the internet i can be an arrogant son of a bitch and should be more humble... you can! i'd buy you a beer and we'd hash things out.

well buddy, perhaps you should hang out with my crowd... since i'm the only conservative i know (besides christina fallon... mary's daughter). just fyi... the business i'm in is uber competitive and i've seen soooo many dj's and clubs fall to the wayside. it's even harder when you take a stand for something many of your clientele and patrons are totally against.
i guess my point is that if one has cahoonas, integrity and grit... one can overcome extraordinary obstacles and become a legendary figure or a Godfather of a scene / group of people whom doesn't adhere to the same values.
have i lost gigs due to me being vocal... yes. have i lost a few friends that hate that i'm conservative... yes.

let me state this... if blacks had the internet in the 60's and hid behind names like BLACK PANTHER or SOLID BROTHAH and lobbied for their rights... would they be where they are today?
did speaking out for what they believe in and against injustice affect their families and their jobs... HELL YEAH IT DID! CLARA LUPER is a name blacks (and many other colors of people) hold dear in oklahoma as a LEGEND. i'm sure many black folks are happy she didn't count the cost when she led sit ins in okc.

so yeah, i do respect you solitude... you are steadfast and grounded in what you believe. however, i respect DAVID GLOVER more for sticking his neck out there.

my apologies for drunken posting last night... a house warming party's open bar got the best of me.

God bless you bro,
JAMES EDWARD SMITH


MySpace.com - 3DW@RD!CU$$ [crunktronic] - 36 - Male - OKLAHOMA CITY [four oh five], OKLAHOMA - www.myspace.com/edcrunk

[MikeOKC]

Tramel's video is over the top in my opinion. as for the anonymity I see it both ways. Doug Dawg has a fun and very interesting blog, thanks for linking it here. I will have to go spend some time there for sure!

[dismayed]

Yeah he pretty much lost me at bullfeathers.

Steve, why are writers across-the-board at The Oklahoman (present company excluded of course) so fond of printing wacky small-town colloquialisms? Is it a pre-requirement of employment? Something in the Muzak there at the Dark Tower?

[flintysooner]

Tramel makes a valid point in my opinion.

There seems to me to be a kind of repetitious life cycle to forums: Someone has an idea and creates a forum. Others who are similarly interested join and participate. If there is some success then trolls are attracted. Then there is a period of agenda pushing that becomes pretty widespread among the population. Things spiral out of control. People leave. Someone usually asserts order and discipline is restored and the forum is refocused with fewer people back to topic. Then it repeats.

I see nothing wrong with forums if they are well kept. I think it is the responsibility of the forum management to insure discipline. In my experience there is a tendency to be too lax in enforcing the rules. There is also a responsibility on individuals to refrain from feeding trolls and pushing private agendas unrelated to the forum purpose and to try to be civil. There is also an individual responsibility to leave if a forum is not well tended I think.

[Kerry]

Getting back to the University of Texas employee making the fake news story about OU players. The problem is not that forums don't live up to reputable news standards, it is that reputable news outlets sink to forum standards. When a person posts on a forum they are directing those comments to other people participating in the forum. A news outlet broadcast their message to a much wider and diverse population and hence, their responsibility to ensure accuracy should be held to higher standard - it doesn't matter if it is Jason Blair at the New York Times or some dumbass sports radio guy in Austin.

Take the Sonics situation as an example. I spent a lot of time reading news stories, listening to sports radio in OKC and Seattle, and pouring through pages of legal documents, deposition, and court filings. I can say without a doubt not one single news "reporter" in Seattle or OKC could get anything correct down to the simplest fact. The reporters in Seattle seemed only interested in selling newspapers to Seattle Sonics fans and for the most part OKC based media seemed uninterested. The Sports Animal spent more time on Tiger Woods then they did on the Sonics. National programs have people like Lester Munson spouting nonsense and who I have concluded is dumber than a bag of rocks.

I have almost stopped listening to all news casts because it doesn't matter what the subject is, I typically know more than the person in front of the camera, even if I don't know anything.

[Toadrax]

It is like during the democratic party primary, I don't think any of the news outlets had accurate delegate counts the entire time.

Obama had been in the lead for months before the media even noticed.

They never read the rules, and only the 10 people on the Internet that did understood what was going on.

Traditional news is a failure and has no place anymore. Only on the Internet we can verify stuff for ourselves and ask questions from real experts on subjects.

[Steve]

All I can tell you is that I've been accused of using the words "historic" and "landmark" once too often. I'm seeking counseling for this literary vice of mine.

Yeah he pretty much lost me at bullfeathers.

Steve, why are writers across-the-board at The Oklahoman (present company excluded of course) so fond of printing wacky small-town colloquialisms? Is it a pre-requirement of employment? Something in the Muzak there at the Dark Tower?

[metro]

I wouldn't listen to Barry Tramel. He's just another cog in the wheel at the Joklahoman.

[kmf563]

infamous would be more appropriate. =-]

heh, i'm not shy about touting my credentials when i'm three sheets to the wind.

my bad, bro.


btw, that is not self ascribed... it's what i hear everytime i'm back in dallas. it's also been on flyers when i'm booked there.


well, i'm on the verge of opening another club and the stands i take can affect whether or not my business thrives. so thousands of dollars and my livelyhood is on the line (not to mention the fact that i need a new ACURA RL).

i don't see the problem with putting my name out there.
my real name is JAMES EDWARD SMITH. i live at nw 25th and douglas (asian district... wewt wewt!). during the day... i work at TARGET at 50th and north may. every wednesday i am at ELECTRO LOUNGE and at VENU every thursday. if one would want to spit in my face, debate whether or not obama is d*bag or even discuss the fact that on the internet i can be an arrogant son of a bitch and should be more humble... you can! i'd buy you a beer and we'd hash things out.

well buddy, perhaps you should hang out with my crowd... since i'm the only conservative i know (besides christina fallon... mary's daughter). just fyi... the business i'm in is uber competitive and i've seen soooo many dj's and clubs fall to the wayside. it's even harder when you take a stand for something many of your clientele and patrons are totally against.
i guess my point is that if one has cahoonas, integrity and grit... one can overcome extraordinary obstacles and become a legendary figure or a Godfather of a scene / group of people whom doesn't adhere to the same values.
have i lost gigs due to me being vocal... yes. have i lost a few friends that hate that i'm conservative... yes.

let me state this... if blacks had the internet in the 60's and hid behind names like BLACK PANTHER or SOLID BROTHAH and lobbied for their rights... would they be where they are today?
did speaking out for what they believe in and against injustice affect their families and their jobs... HELL YEAH IT DID! CLARA LUPER is a name blacks (and many other colors of people) hold dear in oklahoma as a LEGEND. i'm sure many black folks are happy she didn't count the cost when she led sit ins in okc.

so yeah, i do respect you solitude... you are steadfast and grounded in what you believe. however, i respect DAVID GLOVER more for sticking his neck out there.

my apologies for drunken posting last night... a house warming party's open bar got the best of me.

God bless you bro,
JAMES EDWARD SMITH


MySpace.com - 3DW@RD!CU$$ [crunktronic] - 36 - Male - OKLAHOMA CITY [four oh five], OKLAHOMA - www.myspace.com/edcrunk

LOL.
Ed, I love you.

Guys, I've known Ed for a long long long ...ok, I'm old....long time. He has never been afraid to speak his mind, and has always been respected for it. Well, by most. He's pretty darn good at what he does too. He's not quite as feisty and outspoken as I am though. He likes a good debate, but he usually is pretty adult about it. Guess those all nighters with liquor have weird affects on people. Imagine that. I wouldn't know, I don't drink.

[Pete]

"Message boards have no more value than porn."

"If you are on a message board, you're part of the problem. Get off."


Nothing like simplistic sweeping generalizations and mass categorization. Sure is a lot easier than meaningful analysis and insight.

It's like saying all the Oklahoma media are ignorant rednecks with third-rate journalism degrees. And I'm sure many would draw that conclusion if they watched Mr. Tramel's rant.

Of course, there is an element of truth in what he says. People often do get too carried away and there is almost no accountability. But there are reasons this medium has exploded and Berry comes off as someone very out of touch and threatened by the changing world.

How hard is it just to ignore the stuff that is a bit crazy and over the top? Is it that hard to discern between information and interesting discussion (and there is plenty of both) and trolls and trouble-makers?

The bottom line is the old way of information being control by a very small group of people has long passed and many established 'journalists' don't like it. If you think about it, when was the last time Berry Tramel reported something that anyone interested didn't already know? I'm a huge fan of local sports and I can't think of one such incident.

What's happened is that information gets out by all kinds of different means and those that like to hold them out as professionals are placed more in the position of repackaging those stories and making commentary on them.

But according to Mr.Tramel he and his ilk are the only ones qualified to do that.


I did want to say that it's one of the reasons I admire Steve Lackmeyer, because he's embraced New Media. That's a very wise choice as it clearly makes him better at his job and more relevant as a journalist in a changing world.

[traxx]

I've got news for you guys - some of you are conspiracy nuts.

One of the best quotes I've seen on here in a long time.

Then it was followed by this:

I am concerned that Berry thinks that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman. That's troublesome.

Priceless.

[jbrown84]

Somebody needs to tell the man to use his inside voice!

I just think it's funny that his name is Berry, not Barry. I just noticed that recently.

[edcrunk]

Somebody needs to tell the man to use his inside voice!

hey, just get a few drinks in me and i'll do it!