Berry Tramel and "Message Boards"

[solitude]

Berry Tramel has unloaded on, "message boards." If you have seen his video rant (and he pulls no punches) you know what I mean. If you haven't seen it, hopefully you can take a minute or two (it's a minute and 53 seconds I think) and watch:
Berry Tramel: On Message Boards

Wow.

He tries to make the argument that simply visiting message boards is some kind of horrible, terrible, disgusting thing to do. But Berry never defines a "message board." Is OKCTalk a "message board?" Yes, I think we would qualify in Berry's eyes. But wait, what about Berry Tramel's own blog ? It allows for comments and his post on the OU cocaine hoax now has, as of this writing, 16 comments. Is that kind of give and take, back and forth....is that not a "message board?" And the difference, Berry, between a "message board" thread and a blog posting that allows for ongoing comments is - what exactly?

Tramel seems overly invested emotionally in this topic and I am truly wondering - why? What's up? And why the double-standard?

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

That dude has one sandy ******.


And the hair of a balding 50 year old woman.

[soonerguru]

The traditional media don't like "message board" and "Internet posters" because they cannot control the content. The same thing is happening to political journalism. The 'blogs are revolutionizing the way people receive and disseminate information.

Berry's rant is not unlike Steve's rant against OKC Talk in a column earlier this year. They feel threatened by it, whether they would admit that or not. And they belittle it because they perceive it as a threat to their power.

They also don't like being called on what they write -- despite their suggestion that they welcome "letters to the editor." I've written several such letters to the Oklahoman and never had one published, regardless or how persuasive or well written it was. I did once receive a strange reply from Jim Standard (who is no longer with the paper) questioning my views. That's as close as I've been to having anything published in the "Ok."

Now, I like Steve and generally like his columns, so I'm not picking on him, but I haven't forgotten him describing us as a bunch of conspiracy nuts for criticizing Urban Renewal.

[soonerguru]

You know, Berry Tramel really pisses me off. The guy's not really that smart, despite being a very good writer. He really isn't that perceptive or intelligent. Yet, he feels that his opinion is relevant -- and in many ways, more important -- than average folks like us who post our opinions on a message board.

I used to buy the "gatekeeper" crap, and I too feared the unruly chaos of the Internet for information. But what I've learned is that sensibly moderated message boards, like this one, are self regulating. If you post bull****, you're going to be called on it. The difference with Berry Tramel is he doesn't like being called on his bull**** by anyone.

[solitude]

You know, Berry Tramel really pisses me off. The guy's not really that smart, despite being a very good writer. He really isn't that perceptive or intelligent. Yet, he feels that his opinion is relevant -- and in many ways, more important -- than average folks like us who post our opinions on a message board.

I used to buy the "gatekeeper" crap, and I too feared the unruly chaos of the Internet for information. But what I've learned is that sensibly moderated message boards, like this one, are self regulating. If you post bull****, you're going to be called on it. The difference with Berry Tramel is he doesn't like being called on his bull**** by anyone.

Bingo. I agree with you.

[Toadrax]

People like him just make us look backwater and retarded, whoever lets him post that trash needs to fix this.

[Doug Loudenback]

Tramel's jumped off the cliff on this one.

Steve, according to Berry, you're part of the problem! Better hide, quick!

I do think that lots of people misuse their anonymity and say things they wouldn't if they knew they were known, but that's another topic.

[Toadrax]

Anonymity is an important part of how it works and allows some things to be said that needs to be said and might not be said otherwise.

If you are going to fall something someone says on a message board without verifying it, the blame is a lack of critical thinking skills.

[Doug Loudenback]

Berry Tramel has unloaded on, "message boards." If you have seen his video rant (and he pulls no punches) you know what I mean. If you haven't seen it, hopefully you can take a minute or two (it's a minute and 53 seconds I think) and watch:
Berry Tramel: On Message Boards

Wow.

He tries to make the argument that simply visiting message boards is some kind of horrible, terrible, disgusting thing to do. But Berry never defines a "message board." Is OKCTalk a "message board?" Yes, I think we would qualify in Berry's eyes. But wait, what about Berry Tramel's own blog ? It allows for comments and his post on the OU cocaine hoax now has, as of this writing, 16 comments. Is that kind of give and take, back and forth....is that not a "message board?" And the difference, Berry, between a "message board" thread and a blog posting that allows for ongoing comments is - what exactly?

Tramel seems overly invested emotionally in this topic and I am truly wondering - why? What's up? And why the double-standard?

Thanks for the link to his "comments", solitude. I've just left mine there: Hoax man seems pitiful

[soonerguru]

Listen, a lot of people in this town would be blacklisted or lose their jobs if their opinions were known. I know of people who have lost business in OKC for supporting Barack Obama, as bizarre and third world as that seems.

As long as you're not posting slanderous or inaccurate information, who cares if you're anonymous.

If you're a journalist who appears on radio daily, shows up on sports wrapup shows on TV, and writes a daily column in the largest newspaper in the state, you're a public figure, and, like it not, you're a target for "message board" writers and their anonymous opinions.

As Berry himself would say, "....comes with the territory." Note, he says that about 19 year old college quarterbacks who are ripped from stem to stern by other idiot sportswriters like himself. (Tramel's not an idiot, but the friend he defends, Jim Trabor, is.)

[Doug Loudenback]

Anonymity is an important part of how it works and allows some things to be said that needs to be said and might not be said otherwise.

If you are going to fall something someone says on a message board without verifying it, the blame is a lack of critical thinking skills.

My point, toadrax, is that anonymity gives some the notion that they have no responsibility for what they say and use anonymity as a mask. I'm not saying that everyone does that, but many do. And, as I said, that's another topic than was raised by Tramel's unwise video.

[Toadrax]

Tramel's story..

We tracked down Conradt as the culprit. I don’t know how they did it, but I guess you can find out most anything. Anyway,

How did they track down Conradt? How do we know for a fact it is him.. if he doesn't know how it was tracked down he is just as irresponsible for perpetuating that it is him.

He is accepting something as fact that he doesn't know to be a fact.

[Steve]

I'm not going to get into a flame war here or defend or attack Berry's commentary. But it's inaccurate to describe the column I wrote as an indictment of everyone on this board as a conspiracy theorist. And if you look at my profile, one will see I've been a member of OKCTalk, through good times and bad times, since early on. I sincerely welcome criticism of my reporting and writing - such critiques often make for a better journalist.
I have no problem admitting I get good story ideas from this site and it provides me a good insight into what people are interested in. I'm going to restate the basic premise of that column and I'm not going to get into it any further - these message boards represent the community as a whole: leaders, activists and volunteers emerge and get a voice where in public they might not. But the ability to disguise one's identity also encourages the conspiracy theorists to hurl accusations and make unsubstantiated attacks without any accountability.
But all of this does beg the question: is there any value left to having full-time journalists who specialize in various topics being the chief source of news versus simply getting the day's news from blogs and message boards? (I will be the first to admit, btw, that my daily reading consists of the Oklahoman, Tulsa World, Journal Record, a scan of the Wall Street Journal, Drudge, OKCTalk, OKMet, Dustbury, DougDawg and some site that seems to have "issues" with Wimgo and Dave Morris).
OK Doug, I'm going to duck under that couch now....

[edcrunk]

I do think that lots of people misuse their anonymity and say things they wouldn't if they knew they were known, but that's another topic.

i know spartan is a fan of tramel, but i dislike him. (however i still read him... dammit)

but yeah, i really hate when people hide behind internet screenames. i like to live my life as an open book.
i would put my myspace and facebook addys as my sig... but i haven't been able to figure out how to on this forum. are only the people who paid money able to? i've been all over the user cp to no avail.
perhaps someone smarter than i will have mercy on me and help a cracker out.

btw steve, you're my favorite journalist. i wish we had been a little more patient that day at mcnellies. i'm sure we'll meet someday.

[solitude]

Thanks for the link to his "comments", solitude. I've just left mine there: Hoax man seems pitiful

Excellent comment!

Honestly, I see the problems with anonymity and its misuse on the Internet. I read a book called, The Cult of the Amateur by Andrew Keen and he made some excellent points. Of course, even back in the days when 'letters to the editor' were a prime place for the public soapbox, newspapers respected anonymity by printing letters signed "name withheld." But, as you said Doug, that's a whole other issue. That was a great comment!

[Steve]

Thanks Ed. Doug can vouch for how my reporting gig can make a mockery out any attempt to be on time for pretty much anything. And yes, I look forward to meeting you as well.

[Kerry]

I've got news for you guys - some of you are conspiracy nuts.

[solitude]

I, too, took issue with Steve at the time of the column. Could things have been phrased differently? Maybe. Maybe not. At any rate, Steve has proven (to me at least) that he's not a 'fair weather friend,' of OKCTalk as he took the heat and didn't run from this board when we all exploded at once. He stayed, we personally shared a couple of PM's (I was really overheated on the board) - and that's that. In the past. He's an excellent journalist writing on topics many of us find of interest. Even his blog is on my RSS feed as I find it supplements his articles well. I consider him a great member of the community and, in my opinion, we're lucky to have him in Oklahoma City.

[Saberman]

Welcome to the new world Barry, problem is most in the media seem to think they are the only people that speak the truth.

At one time I may have agreed with that to some extent, but today we have to put up with those in the media that don't check their sources(radio stations in Houston are a good recent example), and pass off their opinions as being truth. So to some extent they have become no better then the message boards they indite.

What message boards do provide is a means for people with differing ideas to give their opinions on the stories or events that effect us as a community. Sure, as with any medium there is an element that uses it for their own sick agenda. But I would sure rather they go on a message board, then to go out and do something tragic, that we would surely see on the news. For the most part people are pretty good at policing what is said on message boards.

Most people on message boards are good, honest, hard working people that want to have their opinions heard, and may be hear the other side, when they are open debate. If you believe everything you see on TV, hear on the radio, read in the newspaper, or read on line, then you have limited yourself and diminished yourself.

When people cross the line, it's not hard to track them down like this Conradt guy in Houston, and they need to drop the hammer on them. If you don't want someone to find out what you are doing or what you are writing, don't do it online, Clay Bennett and friends will attest to that.....

[edcrunk]

When people cross the line, it's not hard to track them down like this Conradt guy in Houston, and they need to drop the hammer on them.

hey sabe... i believe he was from nebraska, but the radio stations in austin and houston were too happy to report this and jumped the gun.

[ddavidson8]

People like him just make us look backwater and retarded, whoever lets him post that trash needs to fix this.

Man I keep reading that phrase over and over on this board. Is "backwater and retarded" some kind of unique put-down that people hold over okies? I'm really not concerned with what people outside of Oklahoma think about me or my compadres. I have a little more self esteem than that.

I am concerned that Berry thinks that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman. That's troublesome.

[ddavidson8]

Listen, a lot of people in this town would be blacklisted or lose their jobs if their opinions were known. I know of people who have lost business in OKC for supporting Barack Obama, as bizarre and third world as that seems.

Wow, I'd love to see your concrete evidence on that claim.

[Saberman]

hey sabe... i believe he was from nebraska, but the radio stations in austin and houston were too happy to report this and jumped the gun.

He was from Nebraska, but he works for the University of Texas.

[Karried]

Bullfeathers! ha.. that's classic.. ugh, Berry Tramel

Message boards aren't the problem. It's the stupidity of some of the posters.

I like the above comments on the anonymity of the internet and how it enables people to act in ways they never would otherwise and say/write things they never would face to face.

I've read message boards on news media across the country and cringe to read some of the comments left.

It has been an issue with me for years because it disturbs me how people can insult, offend, hurt and humiliate others all behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity.

It's so easy to be mean or a bully behind a computer screen.

I've seen posters take on imaginary lives, personas and claim to be famous public figures, all because they thought they could and wouldn't be discovered. I find it so pathetic.

And, it can be a very dangerous game.. as this person who accused the players of cocaine use, will soon find out.

One thing I don't think people understand.. you can always be tracked.. you can always be found. Some people are just too stupid to realize it.

[UnFrSaKn]

I saw this video yesterday and didn't think to post it.