Cotton Exchange plans change significantly

[ourulz2000]

I didn't say who should put up the money, just how to fix the problem.

[sroberts24]

i'm sure cotton is pretty frustrated since its the parking thats making this so hard, and we need more parking garages, maybe undergroun?!

[wsucougz]

The parking conundrum is ridiculous unless he is still planning for residential. If he has to have onsite parking for retail, maybe he's looking at this all wrong.

[metro]

Several Things:

First off, I'm not surprised this is getting a major overhaul, if it even gets off the ground. I said from the beginning, I'm skeptical and would believe it when I see it. Gary Cotton doesn't have the track record of being a mover and shaker as someone pointed out earlier.

Parking is not the problem, parking is the scapegoat. Steve's written several articles about the downtown/Bricktown (played out media word) parking situation, as well as the city has done extensive research on this issue. We've decided as a forum (OKCTalk), as well as the city and other community leaders and groups have determine the problem is PERCEPTION. People in this city, especially many suburbanites are not used to the concept of paying for uniqueness and for an urban feel. They are used to driving there Tahoes to Target with ample free parking. Going to Quail Springs Mall, etc. Nothing unique about these experiences. Part of urban life is the uniqueness you can't find elsewhere. Since the land is limited, supply and demand kicks in thus jacking up prices. It's not cost effective to have a parking lot for free if you own the land when you can sell that land for a premium. Despite Bricktown having many pay lots, there is still plenty of FREE parking in Lower Bricktown and on street meters in Bricktown proper. I've had to pay for parking once (by choice) in the last 5 years or so in Bricktown. The problem in this town for many people is laziness. People want storefront parking for free, and don't want to walk a block or two. Do you not think New Yorkers, Austintonians, San Franciscans, etc. don't walk? There is plenty of parking if you're willing to walk 1-3 blocks. If you're not pay the premium for curbside parking or shop/eat in the suburbs. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

I don't think economy has anything to do with this project being scaled back. I think it's lack of vision and reality.

[EvokeCoffee]

Part of urban life is the uniqueness you can't find elsewhere. Since the land is limited, supply and demand kicks in thus jacking up prices. It's not cost effective to have a parking lot for free if you own the land when you can sell that land for a premium. Despite Bricktown having many pay lots, there is still plenty of FREE parking in Lower Bricktown and on street meters in Bricktown proper. I've had to pay for parking once (by choice) in the last 5 years or so in Bricktown. The problem in this town for many people is laziness. People want storefront parking for free, and don't want to walk a block or two. Do you not think New Yorkers, Austintonians, San Franciscans, etc. don't walk? There is plenty of parking if you're willing to walk 1-3 blocks. If you're not pay the premium for curbside parking or shop/eat in the suburbs. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Thanks Metro. I was going to say something on this same topic - I'm glad I read yours first. I find that I can ALWAYS find a spot to part North of May in that huge parking lot. Yes, you have to walk a bit but - hey - walking would do us all a bit of good!

I agree, I think there needs to be a vision put forth and then a plan to reach that vision.

[BDP]

If it's the economy, then why didn't we get anything nice when the economy was good?

If it's parking, then we can just give up on getting anything nice, because we will destory it with parking.

If it's because this had a lot of obstacles to overcome, then, again, we can give up on getting any thing nice down there, because large district changing projects come with hurdles and it seems we just don't have the community support, development vision and resources, or leadership to implement even something on this scale.

This is not a trend that has just developed with recent changes in the economy, it is the status quo. It is Oklahoma City.

[brianinok]

Metro is exactly right. There is NO parking problem downtown or in Bricktown-- there is a parking problem PERCEPTION. I have been downtown with the Ford Center and Cox Center busy, and still found free parking. I've also paid $5 to park in a closer spot. What I don't get is people parking the equivalent of 2 blocks from the door at Wal-Mart/Target, then walking the equivalent of 4 blocks inside the store, and then complaining about parking 3-5 blocks from their destination downtown. It defies logic.

[wsucougz]

I'm getting pretty sick of hearing about ambition bricktown projects that never pan out... Pretty sick of Bricktown in general, really. Newsflash: It isn't terribly unique. Every decent sized city has one, properties are waaay overvalued and I'm guessing rents are too high. We got it off the ground, now what? Can a REAL developer step up? If not, Western and Midtown are about to CRUSH its ability to draw locals.

[onthestrip]

Maybe these publicity seekers should get their ducks in a row before they go calling The Oklahoman seeking a write up about their "big" project. Get to a point were it is a doable project before you go touting to everyone about how you are going to be some big shot developer.

And whats the issue with parking, why cant he do it the way he said. Make the middle floors a parking garage.

Just being in Denver over the weekend makes me sad that we cant get one good project going while Denver has several already done and several new ones on the way.

[wsucougz]

Maybe these publicity seekers should get their ducks in a row before they go calling The Oklahoman seeking a write up about their "big" project.

Exactly. I think the Oklahoman should implement a rule that in order to get a story in the paper about your new big dream project you need to have either: A. A history of developing projects of similar size, B. financing and approval in place, or C. a history of involvement in the local business community and a ****load of cash(i.e. more than the project will actually cost)

I'm tired of these losers getting free pub.

[soonerguru]

The window on Bricktown is closing, fast. It is being destroyed by morons and amateurs who have driven up the rents to such a ridiculous degree that those of us who have traveled to cities other than Dallas know we'll never see the cool record stores, intresting boutiques, and tasty Moroccan restaurants typical of urban areas.

Bricktown is in deep, deep trouble. It has been ruined by the good old boys who run it. They were given a tremendous gift by the taxpayers of this city: a canal and a ballpark, and they have squandered the opportunity.

What, if anything, can be done, to get Bricktown on track, or is it destined to being lame from now on?

[Steve]

"Maybe these publicity seekers should get their ducks in a row before they go calling The Oklahoman seeking a write up about their "big" project. Get to a point were it is a doable project before you go touting to everyone about how you are going to be some big shot developer."

"Exactly. I think the Oklahoman should implement a rule that in order to get a story in the paper about your new big dream project you need to have either: A. A history of developing projects of similar size, B. financing and approval in place, or C. a history of involvement in the local business community and a ****load of cash(i.e. more than the project will actually cost)"


Fair criticism. Understandable frustration. And I've discussed these challenges several times with Metro when there were occassions where a project was being mentioned online and posters questioned why the paper was being so slow to report on it. And truth is, yes, as reporters we do hold off sometimes when it appears that a project is questionable or the story is dubious.
Ask yourself, why didn't any of the local media report on a press release that went out earlier this year on a man who announced he plans to build a $500 million football stadium?
Now, back to the reporting on the Gary Cotton project. This one had interesting dynamics - and you can look back at some of my original reporting on this topic (I've posted it on my blog at www.okccentral.com).
Gary Cotton has access to money. He has bought and sold buildings in Bricktown that amounted to multi-million dollar deals. So that makes him a legitimate player in the Bricktown real estate world. He had no development experience - that's true. But is that the standard by which we determine whether or not to report on a project? Note that Marva Ellard, whose Sieber Hotel restoration is almost complete, didn't have any development experience either. And like Gary Cotton, she had plenty of doubters. But I really would have dropped the ball not reporting on her efforts early on.
So back to Mr. Cotton. He had access to money. He had no development experience. And he also had a team that was the envy of everybody in Bricktown - Architectural Design Group for building design, Timberlake for construction, Sperry VanNess for leasing and sales. And note, this team is still in place. Note that Cotton hasn't declared the project dead - only that it's being downsized.
Go back and read my early reporting - did I really mislead you?
This is the sort of discussion I really love. This is the sort of criticism I want to hear, need to hear, and need to flesh out. It makes me a better writer and reporter. To wsucougz and onthestrip, you came up with some great questions and criticism.

[Pete]

No question that this development should have been reported. There were legitimate people involved and this was big news. No way to tell if these things get built in the longer term and it think it's pretty easy to separate out stories like this from that crazy stadium publicity stunt.

What's frustrating me is that I can't seem to determine the problem here. Parking has been mentioned but only in a vague way...

I think this discussion would take a much more constructive form if we understood more about why Cotton now feels his proposed project is unworkable. And also, more information about what he now has planned.


I do like the fact he has to do something with these properties, rather than just sit on them like so many in that area.

[Steve]

To be fair, Cotton isn't ready yet to unveil everything that's changing and what has transpired. Today's report was what it was portrayed to be: an update, a brief update telling people, "yes, it's still alive, but it won't look like what you first saw."

[Nawfside OKC]

maybe there's a curse, that it can be no hotel or residential balcony views of the BT ballpark..

[architect5311]

Construction costs, like gas prices, continue to rise.

Developers can be your best and worst client.

If I'm working on say, project "x", and this project has a budget of x dollars x number of years ago, miscalculate or ignore escalation, unknown project factors, delays, red tape, etc....................and project "x" today is way over budget.

This happens all the time. MAPS I and II are prime examples.

[gsan]

Bricktown needs more cowbell and a Morrocan Restaurant.

[flintysooner]

withdrawn

[Kerry]

I would rather the lot sit empty for 5 more years than have some half-ass project built on it. Bricktown all ready has enough half-ass stuff. I am ready for some full-ass staff. Either do it right or don't do it all.

[metro]

I would rather the lot sit empty for 5 more years than have some half-ass project built on it. Bricktown all ready has enough half-ass stuff. I am ready for some full-ass staff. Either do it right or don't do it all.

[Steve]

flinty, as one of the few who read your comment, I wish you'd reconsider re-posting it. I thought it was one of the most intelligent explanations of how difficult development can be. It's very much on topic, because it goes to show just how much more complicated a deal like this could be for someone with no development experience whatsoever.
-Steve

[jbrown84]

Just give him and his team a chance to present an economicly feasible plan before everybody throws him off a bridge. I have no knowledge of what his plans are, but lets wait and see.

Well said.

The writing was on the wall for the economy when he announced this just a few months ago and financing was already scarce. It was piss poor planning and a pipe-dream from the start.

Then why are you so shocked and upset? It's not like he called it off, or sold off the property. He's trying to find a workable project for the site and WE HAVE NO REASON YET TO BE UPSET BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS.

What's frustrating me is that I can't seem to determine the problem here. Parking has been mentioned but only in a vague way...

Part of what I got out of the article was that he apparently doesn't own the Margarita Mama's building and has decided that it cost too much when weighed with the risk he's taking on. Maybe the owner was wanting a ridiculous amount for the building. Wouldn't be surprised.

[Steve]

To be clear: Cotton does own the Margarita Mama's building, but he didn't buy it cheap.

[jbrown84]

hmm so why is he worried about tearing it down? I don't see how it could house something more profitable than what he would get out of this project as proposed.

[BDP]

What I don't get is people parking the equivalent of 2 blocks from the door at Wal-Mart/Target, then walking the equivalent of 4 blocks inside the store, and then complaining about parking 3-5 blocks from their destination downtown. It defies logic.

So true and, really, when the mistakes of bricktown are evaluated when it goes through a resurgance in the future, this will be the public answer to the question of 'Why didn't Bricktown develop as promised the first time?'.

Bricktown is in deep, deep trouble. It has been ruined by the good old boys who run it. They were given a tremendous gift by the taxpayers of this city: a canal and a ballpark, and they have squandered the opportunity.

But that will be the real answer. Lower bricktown especially. It was a blank slate and Hogan couldn't come up with a way to answer all of the bricktown problems: density of available real estate, centralized parking, and a comprehensive design and plan that considered pedestrian flow in a way to maximize the exposure of each store front to every visitor while incorporating the canal as the main throughfare for those on foot.

LB was a chance to elevate bricktown proper as well as the entire district. Instead, it was piecemealed in a haphazardly fashion that resulted in a very low density of storefronts, high disregard for the canal, and a waste of a ton of great real estate for use as surface parking.

The writing was on the wall for the economy when he announced this just a few months ago and financing was already scarce. It was piss poor planning and a pipe-dream from the start.

But this is just the next downsizing in a long tradition of downsizing and compromises in Oklahoma City across various economic trends, including the last 10 years or so where cash was so cheap that developments twice the size of this one were a dime a dozen across the country, yet we still never saw anything anyone would call "grand" relative to similar projects in other markets.

This is the sort of criticism I want to hear, need to hear, and need to flesh out.

In general, I don't really blame the paper or the reporting. The reality is that the reporting isn't the problem and I don't even really think that the failed promises of specific projects is the main story here. The story is that, even in favorable economic conditions, we still did not end up with a signature development in bricktown that could really be called a new addition to the city, let alone a development that warranted public investment into the area in order to attract it.

I am sure there is a concern at the paper of compromising Bricktown's current draw, but I think we should be seeing constant comparisons to other urban entertainment districts around the country. What have they done that allowed them to succeed or fail? Who were involved in the signature developments and what kind of assistance and support did they get from local leadership or public financing? What is specifically different from those markets, culturally and socially, that make it easier for them to attract and complete projects that reinvent districts into regional and national attractions? i.e. how to avoid going the way of the West End and Deep Ellum?

I think we have to stop competing with Oklahoma City 1985 and start competing with other markets going forward into the future. I don't think there is much public awareness of what is going on in the rest of the country relative to bricktown. All people seem to know is what bricktown is relative to itself 20 years ago. We can sit here and lament about how hard these types of developments are, but why is harder here than many other markets despite the tremendous amount of, imo, well spent public funds on the area? Many cities have similar set backs, but something does get done and in some cases without the public improvements we saw in bricktown.

What's really scary is the Core 2 Shore dreams. I was forced to bop and weave through the area last night when I came upon a closed I-40 exit and had to exit at 15th and work my way back up to downtown. The area has sooooo much more work needed than bricktown ever did and it's much bigger in scope. Who is going to do it? If a little 12 store development is so difficult even with it being on the last prime undeveloped space in the city's highest profile entertainment district, how in the world are we going to totally reinvent what is now a large dumping ground into the city's largest live/work/play district? If we have been unable to attract experienced developers into bricktown during favorable economic times, how we will we attract the experience to the Core 2 Shore district?

That may be expanding the scope of the thread a bit, but there does seem to a bigger question here? Why is this so hard to do in Oklahoma City and why can’t we overcome those obstacles the way some other markets have?