Massive Retail / Hotel / Office Development for Memorial & Western

[Karried]

You are right, Memorial could be a major traffic pain even with the new turnarounds.

The nice thing about this is you can always take the Kilpatrick and bypass the congestion that way.

This center will be closer to Western on the south side of Memorial in the huge field between Penn & Western (driving east, past Sam's club and the 'Rock' Church).

The other conjested area is a bit west of this one. ( In front of Sam's Club - the corner of Texas Roadhouse and Wendys )

Yes, I agree with questioning these new super developments .. I fear we are overbuilding big time and won't be able to support the new retail.

[traxx]

I fear we are overbuilding big time and won't be able to support the new retail.

The problem is we already support several of these stores (or their identical twin) in many other parts of the metro. Why can't anybody bring in new retailers that we don't have many times over in this area?

[Drake]

Because they have to want to come here. You cant make a retailer come. Dick's Sporting Goods is new to OKC. I am sure almost every developer tries to get someone that we don't have.

What or who are exactly all these diverse retailers we are missing out on? I realize there are probably many out there that we don't have, but I'm not sure what we are missing. I pretty much see the same all the same retailers in other cities.

So we should stop development waiting for the sky to fall?

[ouguy23]

:

Because they have to want to come here. You cant make a retailer come. Dick's Sporting Goods is new to OKC. I am sure almost every developer tries to get someone that we don't have.

What or who are exactly all these diverse retailers we are missing out on? I realize there are probably many out there that we don't have, but I'm sure what we missing. I pretty much see the same all the same retailers in other cities.

So we should stop development waiting for the sky to fall?

[stlokc]

I agree wholeheartedly with those that fear we are simply providing new retail space for a lot of the same stores that currently exist. But these would not all be getting financing, particularly these days, if there wasn't some solid thinking about what the market could support. It seems to me that the more upscale retailers, if they are doing their due diligence and are ready to enter the OKC market, could be waiting for the center under construction due north of Quail Springs, which seems like it is going to be more substantial. Or any really high-end ones could be waiting for whatever comes of Nichols Hills Plaza/Classen Curve.

If I were REI, for example, or Crate & Barrel, or Urban Outfitters, or Brooks Brothers or a restuarant like Maggiano's or McCormick & Schmick or anybody like that, I would want to be in a nicer environment than what I see here. It will be interesting to see if either the Nichols Hills development or the one north of Quail Springs will have the space as well as the drawing power for a high-end "anchor" such as a Nordstrom or Saks. That would truly be a step forward for Oklahoma City.

[darnell]

You are right, Memorial could be a major traffic pain even with the new turnarounds.

The nice thing about this is you can always take the Kilpatrick and bypass the congestion that way.

This center will be closer to Western on the south side of Memorial in the huge field between Penn & Western (driving east, past Sam's club and the 'Rock' Church).

The other conjested area is a bit west of this one. ( In front of Sam's Club - the corner of Texas Roadhouse and Wendys )

Yes, I agree with questioning these new super developments .. I fear we are overbuilding big time and won't be able to support the new retail.

first, there's nothing nice about having to avoid a section from bad city planning. the whole area north & south of memorial from the hefner parkway to 1/2 mile east of quail is a cluster of bad judgement from a city planning perspective. much like trying to park downtown, memorial is gridlock just getting worse.

do we even have anyone that coordinates city planning or is it just highest bidder with no requirements? there should be city-wide development requirements so that x number of trees are reforested, x number of parking per square foot of retail, x number of turn-arounds. anyone on this know? there's major problems downtown already with parking. i won't even go to Harkins for this reason alone & i'm moving to midtown.

[Pete]

FYI, it's very easy to get shopping centers financed. As compared to other types of commercial construction, it's relatively inexpensive because you are generally just dealing with a shell and parking lots. Tenants almost always pay for their own build-out. I used to be a commercial RE broker in OKC that dealt with retail properties and I was constantly amazed by the projects that got financed.

And that is also evidenced by the large number of existing centers in and around OKC that are now or have been vacant for long periods of time. I could name a dozen large-scale retail projects that completely failed in the last couple of decades.

Secondly, even if this particular development succeeds, it is likely to do so at detriment to other centers around town. Very similar to the northwest side neighborhoods that have largely been abandoned for the QS/Edmond area.

Besides newer retail projects that have failed or floundered, you have scores of older places that are either empty or used for flea markets or the like.


When you have development out of proportion of population growth, you are always going to be robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's a very irresponsible way to approach planning, especially since properties like this are actually within city limits.

It's what you get when you build freeways in the middle of cow pastures.

[BG918]

Move this a mile to the east where the BNSF tracks cross Memorial at Broadway Extn. and you have a future Transit-Oriented Development when commuter rail starts. That would be the SMART thing to do, especially since it looks like this development is pretty dense and includes both retai/restaurants and office space, plus a hotel....

Quail Springs Crossing could anchor the future Memorial Rd. station on the Edmond-Norman (gray) line and could be expanded to include more residential

[flintysooner]

A year ago construction financing could be secured with about 10% equity for high quality projects. Now it is more like 30% and that is only for very high quality (meaning national credit tenants) project. And a good part of that 30% had better be cash.

Long term financing is harder to get as well and very much dependent upon the quality of the tenants.

The retailers that are still in the market require very significant tenant improvement allowances now - sometimes 2 or 3 times as much as required just two or three years ago.

Nearly all major retailers have scaled back expansion plans.

Fortunately Oklahoma is much better than many areas for commercial development.

[flintysooner]

..

[Spartan]

Oh.

Sounded like the kind of thing that usually comes from your crystal ball...

That would be unfortunate, because my crystal ball is usually correct. I actually like the office portion of this.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I always get so excited when I hear about more great chain store retail in the burbs . . . traffic problem . . . not a problem . . . and all that great high quality storm water runoff . . . how fun. As BG pointed out, there are ways to do current century development, but it's not likely in OKC. Cost me over $70 to fill my tank this AM . . . glad my commute is measured in blocks. There are some good neighborhoods out in that area and with better planning, people could have actually been able to get around on foot or bicycle a little bit . . . . you know, things like pedestrian bridges over busy streets . . . walking and bike paths . . . some trees. Maybe later.

[traxx]

first, there's nothing nice about having to avoid a section from bad city planning. the whole area north & south of memorial from the hefner parkway to 1/2 mile east of quail is a cluster of bad judgement from a city planning perspective. much like trying to park downtown, memorial is gridlock just getting worse.

do we even have anyone that coordinates city planning or is it just highest bidder with no requirements? there should be city-wide development requirements so that x number of trees are reforested, x number of parking per square foot of retail, x number of turn-arounds. anyone on this know? there's major problems downtown already with parking. i won't even go to Harkins for this reason alone & i'm moving to midtown.

Amen. How 'bout some smart growth? I'm tired of large developments being built with a major setback from the road and then smaller businesses popping up in the parking lots of the bigger development. Why not make developments that are more pleasing to the eye? How about making these developments with better layouts with foresight and design that make logical sense?

[Architect2010]

I still don't see any problem downtown when it comes to parking. Its just that people are not willing to park a couple of blocks away from their destination, maybe thats why our city is so fat. =P

All of these new shopping centers leave older ones vacant. For example, on I-240 and Penn. That new shopping center called I-240 Penn Plaza. All it accomplished was taking stores from neighboring retail centers. Michael's, Payless, Circuit City, and PetsMart all left their respective centers to this one, which just leaves huge ugly, empty shopping centers. The city needs to do something to fix that problem. It bugs the crap out of me.

[solitude]

I always get so excited when I hear about more great chain store retail in the burbs . . . traffic problem . . . not a problem . . . and all that great high quality storm water runoff . . . how fun. As BG pointed out, there are ways to do current century development, but it's not likely in OKC. Cost me over $70 to fill my tank this AM . . . glad my commute is measured in blocks. There are some good neighborhoods out in that area and with better planning, people could have actually been able to get around on foot or bicycle a little bit . . . . you know, things like pedestrian bridges over busy streets . . . walking and bike paths . . . some trees. Maybe later.

Very good points. Part of the urban life means walking and short distance transportation. And now with gas prices the way they are - that's an attractive thing.

[hipsterdoofus]

Its a shame they are building this there with that big empty shopping center on the north side of Memorial...

[Chicken In The Rough]

Today's big boxes often become tomorrow's thrift stores. Civic leaders have a hard time seeing too far into the future. They are often blinded by the short-term perceived gains.

[David Pollard]

I'm sorry, but all I see is a sea of asphalt and nothing really unique, both in the rendering and in the plan.

[Architect2010]

As do I. The only suburban shopping center I'm excited about is the one being built just north of Quail Springs Mall. The Village at Quail Springs, or Quail Springs Village. Something like that...

[Pete]

Memorial Road has already become a pretty big eyesore. Barren plain with tons of huge, dull retail buildings in a sea of asphalt dotted by chain restaurants. Not much landscaping or architecture to be found anywhere.

It reminds me a lot of NW Expressway west of McArthur, as there was a similar building boom in the 80's. Take a drive through there now and it looks pretty darn seedy, and only 20 years later.

[jbrown84]

I'm sorry, but all I see is a sea of asphalt and nothing really unique, both in the rendering and in the plan.

I think the excitement here is more linked to some of the tenants (Main Event, Dick's Sporting Goods) than the design. Although the office portion surrounding a lake is pretty cool.

[OUGrad05]

This is all well and good but the city NEEDS to make memorial 3 lanes each way with dedicated turn in lanes for this place BEFORE it gets built.

I moved out of OKC in 2005 when I graduated from OU and now live in Tulsa. Tulsa' straffic is a mess compared with OKC's but OKC's streets department isn't keeping up with population increases on the northern sides of the metro.

Memorial and Penn is a nightmare down there, not as bad as 71st street in Tulsa but its pretty bad.

[OUGrad05]

Memorial Road has already become a pretty big eyesore. Barren plain with tons of huge, dull retail buildings in a sea of asphalt dotted by chain restaurants. Not much landscaping or architecture to be found anywhere.

It reminds me a lot of NW Expressway west of McArthur, as there was a similar building boom in the 80's. Take a drive through there now and it looks pretty darn seedy, and only 20 years later.

I dont recall much vacancy in that area last time I was in the city....

Also a problem with looking "seedy" Has a lot to do with the sprawl of Oklahoma city.

[ElmoFromOK]

Main event is ok. we used to go to one in New Mexico. Enjoyed it for the most part. I think i would prefer a Dave and Busters tho.

[ElmoFromOK]

I still don't see any problem downtown when it comes to parking. Its just that people are not willing to park a couple of blocks away from their destination, maybe thats why our city is so fat.

It is especially funny to see people drive around a parking lot for twenty minutes trying to get that spot that is right by the door of the athletic club they are going to in order to 'exercise'...