www.mysecret.tv

[Midtowner]

See ya bye MT, thanks for playing

No offense taken, just pointing out the general hipcrisy in your statement

The reason that I object to basically every LifeChurch post is this: Every single church introduces new programs. LifeChurch is the only one which sends its members to post on websites. Hearing all the time about a new LC campus or whatever is essentially spam as far as I'm concerned.

Do I start a new thread every time the Roman Catholic Church announces a new ministry or builds a new building? Heck no. Do I announce that Fr. so-and-so from OKC is one of the top-10 influential priests in the archdiocese? Nope.

I'm not really sure why LC members think that anyone really cares about their church and their really strange website.

I'll say this -- the website is interesting -- in the same way a car wreck is interesting. I did slow down on the information superhighway to rubberneck, and as expected, it was a pretty sorry sight to behold.

Not sure what your 'thanks for playing' statement meant JD. If you're leaving the board or the thread because you can't handle a little disagreement, sorry 'bout that, but some of us have opinions which run contrary to yours. C'est la vie and all that..

[Faith]

Not a debate, just a statement that what LifeChurch does for the most part has very little to do with God.

Sorry Mid your statements don't hold any weight with me. If you have never attended nor watched a sermon then you are obviously lacking credible justification on your statements.

[Midtowner]

Sorry Mid your statements don't hold any weight with me. If you have never attended nor watched a sermon then you are obviously lacking credible justification on your statements.

I've browsed the website, and listened to parts of sermons. In my undergrad studies, I had a lot of fraternity brothers who were HUGE on those self-help programs (7 habits of highly effective people, etc.). In the 2 minutes or so I've watched Groeschel, I think I was able to size the sermon style up pretty well.

He's a cross between Steven Covey, and Tony Robbins, with just a hint of Billy Graham.

I don't have to sit through a sermon, however, to be exposed to the relentless marketing of LifeChurch "dot-T-V". I think the marketing is what turns me off the most. There are other megachurches who don't constantly discuss where the next campus is, or their pastor's latest book.

Megachurches like Crossings are churches which I actually have some respect for. In fact, in the law office I work for, I became aware of some of Crossings' support programs for divorcing families. They offer programs to help the parents and kids cope with divorce in a Christian way. That can really help some people, so I send a lot of people their way.

Crossings is a huge Church. On par with LifeChurch. There's also Henderson Hills in Edmond, and various other megachurches around town which don't feel the need to market their latest campus expansion, nutty website, etc.

-- and none of these churches have renamed themselves to reflect their domain names either.

[PUGalicious]

On that point, Midtowner, I agree with you.

[Midtowner]

Thanks Scribe. I feel like I'm just saying what a lot of other people have been thinking. The difference is that I'm not one who keeps such dissonant thoughts to myself.

Some of the above objections forced me to get myself back on-message as to why I feel that many of the things Lifechurch "dot-T-V" does are just silly.

[metro]

Megachurches like Crossings are churches which I actually have some respect for. In fact, in the law office I work for, I became aware of some of Crossings' support programs for divorcing families. They offer programs to help the parents and kids cope with divorce in a Christian way. That can really help some people, so I send a lot of people their way.
In the 2 minutes or so I've watched Groeschel, I think I was able to size the sermon style up pretty well.

Crossings is a huge Church. On par with LifeChurch.

In respect to the Crossings, last I heard they were boasting around 2500 to 3000 people. Yes that is quite impressive however Lifechurch pulls over 16,000 so I'm not sure what your basis for comparing them size wise. In regards to their divorce care programs, Lifechurch also offers them and hundreds more. Instead of just helping people "cope" with a divorce. Lifechurch tries to first help them "save their marriage". I cannot tell you how many times Craig has emphasized this fact of saving a marriage before "giving up". To me "coping" is giving up. Yes, I understand at times it is inevitable and may be the best route to go, but at all costs please try to save it first. Life also has numerous other classes for Financial Peace, Prep for Marriage, Membership Classes, and tons more. It's the only church I know where kids are actually excited to go back to church or don't want to leave. How many churches can say that kids don't want to leave and stop learning about Jesus? Most churches I know kids are ready to leave to go eat at McDonalds or are sleeping on pews during church. I personally serve in the kids ministry there. Kids as young as 2 or 3 can recite memory versus and tell their parents what bible story they learned about that day. That's quite impressive if you ask me.

As far as them not being "devout Christians" or "scriptural" I have to disagree with you there. They've encouraged,mentored, challenged my faith, and motivated me more in just any given month, than I have in my entire collective life at any other church. Saying you've watched a sermon for "two minutes" obvioiusly is jumping to conclusion. Sounds to me you're stuggling to watch one sermon because your afraid you might be actually proved wrong on something and might actually get some spiritual growth out of a Lifechurch message.

[Midtowner]

Metro, in terms of number comparisons, you're comparing one location of Crossings with about 5 Lifechurch "dot-T-V" locations. Do the math, on a per-location basis, they're about the same size. Crossings has not franchised, but in terms of services offered, it's way up there.

As far as your speach on divorce, yes, it's giving up. When you're in an attorney's office, fighting for custody, we're past reconciling. We encourage it if possible, but often at that point, a reconciliation is not in the best interest of the parties or their kids. Instead, I think the best thing for people to do is to mitigate the damage on their kids, and focus on cooperating in raising their kids in as conflict-free an environment as possible, and to absolutely keep the kids out of the middle of the divorce. Such programs are crucial there. So coping, while it is essentially giving up, is exactly what some couples need to do in order to move on with their lives.

Life is by no means unique in that it offers these programs. I think it's worth pointing out that Crossings has gone the extra step in locating attorneys' offices who handle family law cases and making those attorneys aware that this type of counseling is available.

Further, LifeChurch "dot-T-V" is not alone in the fact that it offers a variety of programs. Almost ALL churches offer a variety of programs. Further, almost all churches have members who want to come back (otherwise, they'd go someplace else).

What strikes me as different about LifeChurch "dot-T-V" is that it seems very entertainment-centric. What do laser beams, financial management classes, and loud music have to do with Christianity? Not a whole heck of a lot.

As for the "two minutes," generally, you can size up a speaker in less time than that. If you watch the beginning of any speach, a skilled presenter will start by giving an overview of what the rest of the topic will contain. The fact is that most people generally size up a speaker in less time than that.

[metro]

Metro, in terms of number comparisons, you're comparing one location of Crossings with about 5 Lifechurch "dot-T-V" locations. Do the math, on a per-location basis, they're about the same size. Crossings has not franchised, but in terms of services offered, it's way up there.

Okay. I'll give you the numbers one, however you're still off on it. Additionally, lifechurch.tv is not a franchise (based on that observation you could say the same for any demoniation including the Roman Catholic Church which is according to by the Associated Press the largest and wealthiest religious organization in the world). The Main Life Campus, the OKC campus pulls in between 6,000-12,000 on a weekend, the other campuses pull in the remainder. So even with a one location to one location scenario, they aren't even close. As far as services offer, I agree with you, I wasn't comparing, or saying Life's programs/services are better but simply acknowledging that they offer classes just as you stated about Crossings. So that point is moot. I too don't think Life is unique that it offers these classes however I suppose one could say Life is "unique" about how they go about them.

As far as entertainment centric, I know you're wrong on that basis and that "Life is not challenging scriptural wise or challenges people in their faith". I've gone there for about 7 or 8 years now (way before the entertainment centric approach as you call it, so I would say that has given me pretty good time to come to a conclusion vs. two minutes of online watching. You still however, haven't admitted as to why you can't watch an entire online sermon that won't last more than 30 minutes of your time, however you've spent far greater time arguing about Lifechurch's practices. Could the same argument not be said about the Catholic Church with having a Pope, Cardinals, elegant robes and churches, smoke, at www.catholic.org you can donate and buy online. Different approach but "entertainment" none the less. No where in Scripture can I see anything about doing certain rituals or having a Pope. Although if I'm not too mistaken, (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the Catholic Bible is slightly different from the Christian Bible. I believe it has additional books that are not in the Christian Bible? So if that is true, perhaps it is in there?

Not saying lifechurch.tv is better nor am I saying that the Roman Catholic church is. Like I've said before, it really doesn't matter when we're in heaven and it shouldnt on earth. What I'm saying is you're not using a fair and just system with sufficient evidence for your claim.

On a side note, I thought you might enjoy this website from a local Catholic church. www.frontlinechurch.tv (a lot like lifechurch if you ask me)

[Martin]

additionally, lifechurch.tv is not a franchise

i think some great points to the contrary have been brought up in another thread and never addressed. i'd say that the organization of the lifechurch campuses share many similarities with franchising. each campus is marketed by the same tight lifechurch branding and is marketed as 'lifechurch' rather than by the individual campus. in contrast other christian congregations are differentiated from one another. each campus doesn't have its own speaker. the sermons are sent via video feed from the main campus to the others. the bottom line is that each campus is not autonomous in any significant way. sounds like franchising to me.

although if i'm not too mistaken, (and correct me if i'm wrong) but the catholic bible is slightly different from the christian bible.

the catholic bible does contain scripture not found in the protestant bible. non-catholics generally call these scriptures collectively as the apocrypha. some of the apocrypha is in the form of additional books to the protestant bible and some is in the form of additional scriptures to books found in the protestant bible. all of these apocryphal works are pre-new testament, and are therefore not the basis of catholic dogma.

no where in scripture can i see anything about doing certain rituals or having a pope.

i agree with you on that point, but if you're going to make it then you have to apply the same standard to lifechurch. where in scripture does a 'pastor' lead a congregation? it seems to me that the pattern given by scripture is a set of elders who have specific qualifications. where in scripture does it say to make church attractive to the world? where in scripture does it say that the new testament church didn't take communion regularly? where in scripture does it say that baptism is optional? ...i don't think you're prepared to make the argument about scriptural practices.

don't argue with an **** those watching can't tell the difference.

there may be some heated differences of opinion in this thread and on this board, but i think we can intelligently discuss and defend our points of view without resorting to name-calling.

[Midtowner]

Okay. I'll give you the numbers one, however you're still off on it. Additionally, lifechurch.tv is not a franchise (based on that observation you could say the same for any demoniation including the Roman Catholic Church which is according to by the Associated Press the largest and wealthiest religious organization in the world).

You're darn tootin' the Catholic Church is wealth. Once LifeChurch becomes 2,000 years old, see how wealthy it is

I visited the Vatican this past summer. Truly a sight to behold.

The Main Life Campus, the OKC campus pulls in between 6,000-12,000 on a weekend, the other campuses pull in the remainder. So even with a one location to one location scenario, they aren't even close. As far as services offer, I agree with you, I wasn't comparing, or saying Life's programs/services are better but simply acknowledging that they offer classes just as you stated about Crossings. So that point is moot.

Essentially, yes. However, Crossings has really made some headway by marketing its services to law offices. It's a great community service that they provide, whereas, I think LifeChurch "dot-T-V" services are more targetted at the congregation instead of the general public.

[quote]I too don't think Life is unique that it offers these classes however I suppose one could say Life is "unique" about how they go about them.

As far as entertainment centric, I know you're wrong on that basis and that "Life is not challenging scriptural wise or challenges people in their faith". I've gone there for about 7 or 8 years now (way before the entertainment centric approach as you call it, so I would say that has given me pretty good time to come to a conclusion vs. two minutes of online watching. You still however, haven't admitted as to why you can't watch an entire online sermon that won't last more than 30 minutes of your time, however you've spent far greater time arguing about Lifechurch's practices.

Take away the music, the lights, the sounds, the laser beams, etc. Do people still show up? I don't think they do. Those things are what makes LifeChurch "dot-t-v" what it is. They set it apart. They provide a better entertainment product.

As to spending 2+ minutes, I've said it before -- I don't need to. I have enough information with which to draw a conclusion.

Could the same argument not be said about the Catholic Church with having a Pope, Cardinals, elegant robes and churches, smoke, at www.catholic.org you can donate and buy online. Different approach but "entertainment" none the less.

Actually, those items have nothing to do with entertainment. They have everything to do with approximately 2,000 years of church history and tradition. Some of the traditions are pretty strange, I'll grant you, if you're curious as to the justifications for those traditions, there's a book which is around 4" thick called "The Catechism of the Catholic Church" available at your local library.

No where in Scripture can I see anything about doing certain rituals or having a Pope. Although if I'm not too mistaken, (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the Catholic Bible is slightly different from the Christian Bible. I believe it has additional books that are not in the Christian Bible? So if that is true, perhaps it is in there?

The Pope position is rooted in tradition. Many Catholic practices have no basis in the Bible. However, since Catholic tradition dates back to before we put the Bible together, we consider such things to be dogmatic.

Not saying lifechurch.tv is better nor am I saying that the Roman Catholic church is. Like I've said before, it really doesn't matter when we're in heaven and it shouldnt on earth. What I'm saying is you're not using a fair and just system with sufficient evidence for your claim.

I'm not so sure about that. You've stated some reasons as to why you don't think I'm being fair and just. That's fine. I disagree though fore the above mentioned reasons. I think we have an impasse.

On a side note, I thought you might enjoy this website from a local Catholic church. www.frontlinechurch.tv (a lot like lifechurch if you ask me)

I checked the site out. I can't figure out how this is a Catholic Church. It says nothing about it being Catholic, it says nothing about Catholics. It seems to be just another "dot-T-V" clone.

[metro]

where in scripture does it say that the new testament church didn't take communion regularly? where in scripture does it say that baptism is optional? ...i don't think you're prepared to make the argument about scriptural practices.

I never brought this issue up? As a matter of fact, Lifechurch.tv strongly encourages baptism and has communion available at each service.

As for frontlinechurch.tv and relation to the Catholic Church, check out the "About Us" section of the website.

We believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

We believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,

born of the Virgin Mary,

suffered under Pontius Pilate,

was crucified, died, and was buried;

he descended to the dead.

On the third day he rose again;

he ascended into heaven,

he is seated at the right hand of the Father,

and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

We believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic church,

the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and the life everlasting. AMEN

I called them and they are a part of the Worldwide Catholic Church, however they consider themselves non-denominational. I suppose you can count me wrong on that one or at least partially, so take that as you will. Either way, I was presenting it as a unique observation.

Essentially, yes. However, Crossings has really made some headway by marketing its services to law offices. It's a great community service that they provide, whereas, I think LifeChurch "dot-T-V" services are more targetted at the congregation instead of the general public.

So now your praising Crossings for marketing but yet you despise Lifechurch.tv for marketing. You have to be consistent with your basis for arguments. We all know you are a law/student or lawyer and love debating but however your arguments often lack consistency or any evidence or basis. I would have expected better for someone in your profession.

[Martin]

i never brought this issue up? as a matter of fact, lifechurch.tv strongly encourages baptism and has communion available at each service.

i was wrong... i stand corrected as for communion. i'm glad that lc offers it. as for baptism, though, encouraging something still makes it seem as if it's optional whereas scripture makes it out to be a command. while you've addressed the issue of appealing to the world in other posts, you've made no attempt to address why lc's leadership varies from scriptural tradition...

i only bring this up since you questioned some of the non-scriptural practices of the catholic church.

i called them and they are a part of the worldwide catholic church, however they consider themselves non-denominational.

while the worship style depicted on frontline's website contrasts with what i've known of the catholic church, it isn't surprising that they call themselves undenominational. since 'catholic' means universal, no catholic is technically denominational... you're either in the god's church or you're not... there's no such thing as a denomination. -M

[Midtowner]

I never brought this issue up? As a matter of fact, Lifechurch.tv strongly encourages baptism and has communion available at each service.

So? Communion is doubtfully the same at Lifechurch "dot-t-v" as in the Catholic Church. You may go through the motions, but belief in transubstantiation, etc. are crucial to it making a bit of difference.

As for frontlinechurch.tv and relation to the Catholic Church, check out the "About Us" section of the website. called them and they are a part of the Worldwide Catholic Church, however they consider themselves non-denominational. I suppose you can count me wrong on that one or at least partially, so take that as you will. Either way, I was presenting it as a unique observation.

What you quoted there was the Nicene Creed, a/k/a The Apostle's Creed. The word "Catholic" means universal. It does not necessarily address a particular denomination. I have been to Lutheran, Episcopal, and Methodist services where they recited the above creed (saying the word "Catholic"). They do not consider themselves a part of the Catholic Church, nor does FrontLine "dot-T-V."

So now your praising Crossings for marketing but yet you despise Lifechurch.tv for marketing. You have to be consistent with your basis for arguments. We all know you are a law/student or lawyer and love debating but however your arguments often lack consistency or any evidence or basis. I would have expected better for someone in your profession.

It's the difference of the marketing and the audience. Crossings markets their divorce support groups to the general public through public mediums whereas LifeChurch "dot-T-V" markets to their congregation. Therein lies the difference.

[metro]

It's the difference of the marketing and the audience. Crossings markets their divorce support groups to the general public through public mediums whereas LifeChurch "dot-T-V" markets to their congregation. Therein lies the difference.

How can you judge on this topic? How do you know lifechurch.tv does not market to the general public? Have you ever asked anyone there who it is marketed to or jumped to your own conclusion based on your limited experience? I know several people who have gone through their classes that don't attend lifechurch, so again, I think this is beating a dead horse, there is no depth to this one.

So? Communion is doubtfully the same at Lifechurch "dot-t-v" as in the Catholic Church. You may go through the motions, but belief in transubstantiation, etc. are crucial to it making a bit of difference.

Again, who says lifechurch members only "go through the motions"? Again, you are judging someone's heart and there is no way you can know that without asking each person who takes communion at lifechurch. This exact same thing can be said of the Catholic church or any church that partakes in communion. I'm sure there are people that go through the motions at your church and every other church in the world.

[PhilTLL]

Again, who says lifechurch members only "go through the motions"? Again, you are judging someone's heart and there is no way you can know that without asking each person who takes communion at lifechurch. This exact same thing can be said of the Catholic church or any church that partakes in communion. I'm sure there are people that go through the motions at your church and every other church in the world.

I assume he wasn't questioning a member-by-member measure of honest faith, but meant that in the absence of a church-held doctrine on communion and a belief in its holiness/necessity, it's puzzling why LC.TV bothers with the whole thing, other than perhaps to appeal to people who are more comfortable with communion, to ape more traditional churches, etc. Is it common for non-denoms to offer communion? Even in denominations which don't believe in transubstantiation, there is a statement of belief in its biblical validity, symbolic importance, etc.

Phrased a retro-80s way, I think he's asking "Where's the beef?"

[Midtowner]

LifeChurch "dot-T-V" wants to be able to market themselves to both those who like the tradition of communion, as well as those who find it too Catholic and would prefer not to.

Rather than be forced to (OMG, OH NOES) take a stance on something scriptural that might cause dissent in the congregation, and perhaps alienate people, they strive to appeal to as broad an audience as humanly possible.

Swell marketing, cowardly as far as dogma.

[davido]

As a Christian myself, I think you should pray daily, and ask God to forgive you of the stupid stuff you do, The Bible also says, this isn't an exact quote, don't go out and make a spectical of yourself when you pray, do it in private, it also says to do alot of things in private and not to draw attention to yourself.
the problem is this is run by one of those MEGA Churches, you come in and they have the coffee and donuts waiting, they don't have a Cross (not meaning an Idol) all they talk about is how to make you feel good and make you some money, they will never tell you if your doing wrong, they don't talk about transgressions, they are a Joel Olsteen church, they will tell you a good story on church night and make you laugh and you will still feel empty because they never mention Jesus, it's just a place to go to have a good time, kinda like going to see George Carlin but with out all the blasphemy. and the reason they are huge is because it really isn't church, I'm not saying church should be Hell Fire and Damn nation, most non christians like to be entertained like this. As you can tell I dont like these new age churches, and some of the people who go find out the truth and start going some where else, a church that teaches the Bible. I think if the church makes 300,000 dollars a service there is something wrong, It is all about money,money and money. If you don't believe in Jesus that is your choice, but you might just try with an open mind and read the Bible a little at a time.

[Granata]

Sorry for the grave digging. I understand if this post does not make it past moderation. Concerning frontlinechurch.tv:

I am a member there. I also took care of the website for them. It's been noted already that Frontline is not a Roman Catholic church. That's true. we do use a .tv domain, true. Here is my reasoning for using that domain, a decision made several years ago:

1. Yes, .tv is a top level domain meant for sites based in Tuvalu. I know.
2. Most Frontline and Church related domains were already taken. .TV was the best available option. .INFO and the like just have not caught on as much as .tv
3. It was also chosen because it was hip to the scene, I admit that.

Would I pick that domain again? Yes, but with more hesitation. The .TV domain in the church context seems to be associated (at least in the public's mind) with trendy, hipster and emergent churches. While Frontline may look like an emergent church at first glance. It is not. I would still pick the .TV domain based on the fact that our church's "brand" should not be defined by our top level domain and that if we do things right, our church will be defined by how it affects the community.

I don't think it is fair to compare Frontline to LifeChurch. Frontline is a young church with about 300 in weekly attendance. We're less seeker friendly in our weekend services than LifeChurch. From what I've observed, our doctrine seems to lean to the fundamental side. We also don't have nearly as many classes, programs, events, etc. to offer.

Just thought I'd offer some thoughts from someone who goes there.

[Joe Kimball]

Is it me, or are there some, um, exhibitionists on there? At least that's what the minute detail and seemingly-calculated situations in some postings would lead me to believe.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Is it me, or are there some, um, exhibitionists on there? At least that's what the minute detail and seemingly-calculated situations in some postings would lead me to believe.

I've not visited there...But my kneejerk reaction to it is to go register a userID and start confessing all sorts of idiotic stuff. Start off with coveting my neighbor's wife and over the course of a few posts, work up to torture and mutilation of crickets and cockroaches.

But a) that site is too easy of a mark (I'm sure I'm not the only one to think of this) 2) it's a complete waste of my time and c) it's a pretty mean thing to do when there are people genuinely suffering on there.



/still wants to do it

[Joe Kimball]

I've not visited there...But my kneejerk reaction to it is to go register a userID and start confessing all sorts of idiotic stuff. Start off with coveting my neighbor's wife and over the course of a few posts, work up to torture and mutilation of crickets and cockroaches.

But a) that site is too easy of a mark (I'm sure I'm not the only one to think of this) 2) it's a complete waste of my time and c) it's a pretty mean thing to do when there are people genuinely suffering on there.


/still wants to do it

emphasis mine

And that doesn't escape me. Upon a remedial glance last night, all the stories I ran across over the course of a few minutes seemed genuine, regardless of whether some of them would be accepted as "sin" universally among Christians as a whole.

But some of them I've read in the past....hmm.

[Midtowner]

I've not visited there...But my kneejerk reaction to it is to go register a userID and start confessing all sorts of idiotic stuff. Start off with coveting my neighbor's wife and over the course of a few posts, work up to torture and mutilation of crickets and cockroaches.

But a) that site is too easy of a mark (I'm sure I'm not the only one to think of this) 2) it's a complete waste of my time and c) it's a pretty mean thing to do when there are people genuinely suffering on there.



/still wants to do it

No my friend..

copypasta.org - internet copypasta database
^WARNING, LINK IS INCREDIBLY NOT SAFE FOR WORK!!!

-- that said, some of those people come up with some twisted stuff.

[EvokeCoffee]

the mysecret site reminds me of an ongoing community art project that i saw over a year ago called postsecret. both sites solicit 'confessions' from their audiences and appeal to the same sense of voyeurism. while confession is a good thing, i don't see how posting anonymously on a website really achieves the same effects.
-M

I was going to mention the same thing, mmm. PostSecret really took off. Here is the YouTube trailer from PostSecret.com.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Well this thread took on a new direction!