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Thread: New I-40 Crosstown

  1. #1
    Patrick Guest

    Default New I-40 Crosstown

    What's your opinion of this article. Personally, I never liked the idea of moving I-40 so far away from downtown, but at least they're trying to make it unique.

    What do you think?


    I-40 bridges may cross art's path


    By Steve Lackmeyer
    The Oklahoman

    Motorists on the new Interstate 40 Crosstown Expressway won't get a great view of the downtown skyline -- but latest designs include decorative bridge railings aimed at making the drive less monotonous.
    Construction is expected to start in the fall on the $350 million project.



    This computer drawing shows planned improvements to the Shields
    Boulevard Bridge that connects south and north Oklahoma City. The
    bridge may be decorated with symbols of the railroad industry.

    For the past two years, architect Anthony McDermid has worked with community leaders to make the highway more than just another stretch of asphalt.

    "We've been listening to a lot of ideas and a lot of expectations for something unique and special for our new highway," said McDermid, lead partner in TAParchitecture.

    The latest concepts, paid for by the Oklahoma Transportation Department, propose making each bridge over the highway a symbol of the surrounding area.

    At Robinson Avenue, motorists might pass under a bridge adorned with a representation of Oklahoma City's skyline. The Walker Avenue bridge could be decorated with roses representing the nearby Latino community and its Little Flower Catholic Church.

    Images of rail cars might cross along the facade of the Shields Boulevard crossing, which is near a rail yard.

    "This is the first blush of this concept," project engineer John Bowman said. "We'll be looking at safety, maintenance and all the various issues that could be involved. "

    Little time remains, he said, for deciding what enhancements will be added to ensure the highway can be a source of pride for the city and state.

    With the latest federal appropriation of $24 million, the Transportation Department has $129.7 million to spend on designs, engineering and the start of construction.

    The $350 million project calls for rerouting the highway along the path of the Union Pacific Railroad a few blocks south of downtown. The current highway, including the elevated portions, would continue to be used between Walker Avenue and May Avenue. The road would be converted into a boulevard that would become a surface road east of Walker and continuing into Bricktown.

    Bowman said he expects construction to begin this year on highway and railroad bridges that will allow for pedestrian access between Bricktown and the Oklahoma River (formerly the North Canadian River).

    Completion of the project, including the boulevard, won't be certain until the state can obtain at least another $200 million in federal money.

    Bowman said every effort will be made to include enhancements and mitigation improvements called for in an agreement by city leaders to drop opposition to the new highway alignment.

    The portions of the highway submerged underground will include architectural features on retaining walls similar to the Little Flower Catholic Church.

    Other previously discussed enhancements, including old-fashioned railroad trestles at Shields Boulevard, are less likely to make the final design, Bowman said.

    Funding, and the willingness of the city to maintain them, may determine the look of the bridge facades. The facades could be attachments that will stand out over the span through the use of structural fittings or be incorporated into the railings.

    Members of the design committee preferred the more unusual approach of images popping up over the bridge railings.

    "It's pretty impressive there's a lot of eye-opening stuff," architect Jim Hassenbeck said. He said he would disagree with one or two of the facade designs, notably one featuring flowers that he compared with images of the 1970s.

    Dean Schirf, vice president for government relations at the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce, praised the designs calling for reproduction of the downtown skyline at Robinson Avenue.

    "The skyline is great it sets us apart," Schirf said.

    Dave Lopez, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., agreed. "It will let people coming into our town know it's one that sees itself differently," he said.

    Most agreed the proposed designs could advance Oklahoma City's I-40 corridor to the level of detail found at the widely praised "Big I" in New Mexico, where I-40 crosses Interstate 25 in downtown Albuquerque.

    "I think this could be a draw," said Jan Hook, a board member of Oklahoma City Beautiful. "People might actually come to drive under these bridges. I think it could increase tourism and be a real asset for our city."

  2. Default

    I applaud Anthony McDermid for pushing this. I don't know if we can get detailed retaining walls, but these bridge enhancements are a nice idea. I actually would like to see a different-colored neon light shine underneath each of them them. That would be electric.

  3. #3

    Default ok

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    What's your opinion of this article. Personally, I never liked the idea of moving I-40 so far away from downtown, but at least they're trying to make it unique.

    What do you think?


    I-40 bridges may cross art's path


    By Steve Lackmeyer
    The Oklahoman

    Motorists on the new Interstate 40 Crosstown Expressway won't get a great view of the downtown skyline -- but latest designs include decorative bridge railings aimed at making the drive less monotonous.
    Construction is expected to start in the fall on the $350 million project.



    This computer drawing shows planned improvements to the Shields
    Boulevard Bridge that connects south and north Oklahoma City. The
    bridge may be decorated with symbols of the railroad industry.

    For the past two years, architect Anthony McDermid has worked with community leaders to make the highway more than just another stretch of asphalt.

    "We've been listening to a lot of ideas and a lot of expectations for something unique and special for our new highway," said McDermid, lead partner in TAParchitecture.

    The latest concepts, paid for by the Oklahoma Transportation Department, propose making each bridge over the highway a symbol of the surrounding area.

    At Robinson Avenue, motorists might pass under a bridge adorned with a representation of Oklahoma City's skyline. The Walker Avenue bridge could be decorated with roses representing the nearby Latino community and its Little Flower Catholic Church.

    Images of rail cars might cross along the facade of the Shields Boulevard crossing, which is near a rail yard.

    "This is the first blush of this concept," project engineer John Bowman said. "We'll be looking at safety, maintenance and all the various issues that could be involved. "

    Little time remains, he said, for deciding what enhancements will be added to ensure the highway can be a source of pride for the city and state.

    With the latest federal appropriation of $24 million, the Transportation Department has $129.7 million to spend on designs, engineering and the start of construction.

    The $350 million project calls for rerouting the highway along the path of the Union Pacific Railroad a few blocks south of downtown. The current highway, including the elevated portions, would continue to be used between Walker Avenue and May Avenue. The road would be converted into a boulevard that would become a surface road east of Walker and continuing into Bricktown.

    Bowman said he expects construction to begin this year on highway and railroad bridges that will allow for pedestrian access between Bricktown and the Oklahoma River (formerly the North Canadian River).

    Completion of the project, including the boulevard, won't be certain until the state can obtain at least another $200 million in federal money.

    Bowman said every effort will be made to include enhancements and mitigation improvements called for in an agreement by city leaders to drop opposition to the new highway alignment.

    The portions of the highway submerged underground will include architectural features on retaining walls similar to the Little Flower Catholic Church.

    Other previously discussed enhancements, including old-fashioned railroad trestles at Shields Boulevard, are less likely to make the final design, Bowman said.

    Funding, and the willingness of the city to maintain them, may determine the look of the bridge facades. The facades could be attachments that will stand out over the span through the use of structural fittings or be incorporated into the railings.

    Members of the design committee preferred the more unusual approach of images popping up over the bridge railings.

    "It's pretty impressive there's a lot of eye-opening stuff," architect Jim Hassenbeck said. He said he would disagree with one or two of the facade designs, notably one featuring flowers that he compared with images of the 1970s.

    Dean Schirf, vice president for government relations at the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce, praised the designs calling for reproduction of the downtown skyline at Robinson Avenue.

    "The skyline is great it sets us apart," Schirf said.

    Dave Lopez, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., agreed. "It will let people coming into our town know it's one that sees itself differently," he said.

    Most agreed the proposed designs could advance Oklahoma City's I-40 corridor to the level of detail found at the widely praised "Big I" in New Mexico, where I-40 crosses Interstate 25 in downtown Albuquerque.

    "I think this could be a draw," said Jan Hook, a board member of Oklahoma City Beautiful. "People might actually come to drive under these bridges. I think it could increase tourism and be a real asset for our city."




    Great post. I'm just not completely sure that I'm understanding the depth to this.
    Can anybody explain this out a little bit more?

  4. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Are there any online maps showing the old/new routes?

  5. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown


  6. #6

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Does Union Rail Yard tracks have to be totally ripped up? Seems like this is a valuable important transportation hub asset that should not be lost. Most progressive cities would drool over the future mass/public transit possibilities.

  7. #7

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Not in disagreement with you David, but if memory serves correctly, the train already left the station, with that argument ending up sitting forelornly on the depot platform.

  8. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidGlover View Post
    Does Union Rail Yard tracks have to be totally ripped up? Seems like this is a valuable important transportation hub asset that should not be lost. Most progressive cities would drool over the future mass/public transit possibilities.
    union station is waaaaay too small to be anything in that regard again. we need a huge, new intermodal station close to where we're gonna put the new convention center.

  9. #9

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidGlover View Post
    Does Union Rail Yard tracks have to be totally ripped up? Seems like this is a valuable important transportation hub asset that should not be lost. Most progressive cities would drool over the future mass/public transit possibilities.
    I don't think Union Station is a great location for a mass transit hub. The Amtrak station would be far better, IMO, although it will depend upon track location. It seems to me that the north/south line would at least initially be a more important one than east/west.

  10. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    I don't think Union Station is a great location for a mass transit hub. The Amtrak station would be far better, IMO
    sorry betts. i don't see how that would have enough space either... especially if we were to make it intermodal. living and traveling in other cities... it is uber convenient having train, bus and light rail under one roof.

  11. #11

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Quote Originally Posted by edcrunk View Post
    sorry betts. i don't see how that [Amtrack station] would have enough space either... especially if we were to make it intermodal. living and traveling in other cities... it is uber convenient having train, bus and light rail under one roof.

    Oh, I agree completely. Way too small. I just think the location is more central. If the hub were at Union Station you'd still have to use other forms of mass transit to get downtown (or walk the 6 blocks), to Bricktown or anything along the Boulevard.

  12. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    oh yeah... it's a great centralized location!
    so i guess we are in accord... woooo! heh

    whether on okmet or here on okctalk, i've never disagreed with any of your posts. in fact, i always welcome your opinion on a variety of subjects. =-]

  13. #13

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    I thought there were 12 tracks and Union Rail Yard was one of the largest yards of its kind. I think the tracks go to all points in the state. Wouldn't duplicating this cost lots more in the future than using the exsisting tracks?

  14. #14

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidGlover View Post
    I thought there were 12 tracks and Union Rail Yard was one of the largest yards of its kind. I think the tracks go to all points in the state. Wouldn't duplicating this cost lots more in the future than using the exsisting tracks?
    The tracks at Union Station to points east & west are in pitiful condition. They would definitely need to be upgraded, new ties & ballast installed before any portion of these routes could be considered for passenger/commuter travel. I've stated this many time--look at a satellite image provider online and tell me the facilities are still available? In this case it is less costly for them to tear it all out and build the new I-40 than it would be to spend more money on planning and then reconstruction of a railyard that was a true railyard in its heyday. OKC is much bigger now than the Union Station that used to be when it was in service. That is why a new intermodal facility needs to be built. Suggestions of the Santa Fe station being used as a new Union Station too need to be thrown out the door. Once a new facility is built then the Santa Fe station can be what it essentially is now--a place for meetings.

  15. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Back on topic, por favor.

  16. #16

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCisOK4me View Post
    The tracks at Union Station to points east & west are in pitiful condition. They would definitely need to be upgraded, new ties & ballast installed before any portion of these routes could be considered for passenger/commuter travel. I've stated this many time--look at a satellite image provider online and tell me the facilities are still available? In this case it is less costly for them to tear it all out and build the new I-40 than it would be to spend more money on planning and then reconstruction of a railyard that was a true railyard in its heyday. OKC is much bigger now than the Union Station that used to be when it was in service. That is why a new intermodal facility needs to be built. Suggestions of the Santa Fe station being used as a new Union Station too need to be thrown out the door. Once a new facility is built then the Santa Fe station can be what it essentially is now--a place for meetings.
    The tracks won't be nearly as expensive as new right of ways.

  17. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    We've all had this discussion for years now. It's been decided and they're coming out. Move on and get over it. We want I-40 over any rail that's been sitting there deteriorating and not serving a purpose for 50 years. Scrap that crap and move on. It's beyond any usefullness and would require so much money to bring it up to code...not to mention it's design is not good for what we would use it for. The rail is dead and the car killed it.

    I would much rather pay millions more to put in a new line that gets planned from scratch, than try and redesign i-40 again and delay it. It's not going to happen, so why keep talking about it? It's over, done with, finished, gone, outta here.

    I am surprised that they are spending so much on making the new i-40 pretty though. The folks that talk about the project costing too much get some ammo here. I definitely appreciate a more scenic view, but it can also be considered extra un-needed costs. When we're trying to figure out how to pay for a road, it's tough to rationalize the extras. Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas, it's just tough to make arguement for them.

  18. #18

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post

    I am surprised that they are spending so much on making the new i-40 pretty though. The folks that talk about the project costing too much get some ammo here. I definitely appreciate a more scenic view, but it can also be considered extra un-needed costs. When we're trying to figure out how to pay for a road, it's tough to rationalize the extras. Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas, it's just tough to make arguement for them.
    I agree the devil's advocates will have some ammo, but I'm glad a little extra money is being spent towards beautification. We only have one shot at getting this right and since we're doing it now, we might as well go all out on making that stretch of road aesthetically pleasing. It'll cost some bucks, but this isn't just any road in OKC.
    ...this shortest straw has been pulled for you

  19. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    I remember coming back from Tulsa three weeks ago and I noticed on the turn pike, that a few of the bridges had beautiful brick work, and the state flag was embellished on the center road support.. if it's anything like that, i'll support it.

  20. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Yeah, i love that bridge on the turnpike..it looks great!

  21. #21

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    That bridge is very unusual for Oklahoma. You can go to Texas and see bridges like that all over the place. i'm glad to see ODOT/Turnpike Authority try to build attractive bridges. There needs to be more of them. I think stuff like that says a lot about the state.

  22. #22

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Howdy.

    Tom Elmore, with North American Transportation Institute here.

    Looking back over this thread, I must say that I find some of the assertions in some of the posts profoundly puzzling.

    We're gonna make "art bridges" that some folks might come for miles just to drive under?

    No -- we're not.

    Don't we already kill enough of ourselves in road traffic here?

    To the contrary, ODOT is busily destroying perfectly functional bridges to make way for this unnecessary, and very likely ultimately unaffordable project -- even as it whines incessantly to the legislature about "being out of money."

    With the money that has so far been thrown to the four winds by ODOT on this project, the "Old Crosstown" could undoubtedly have been completely refurbished with modern materials for indefinite use -- perhaps three times. And ODOT still has nothing in the "New Crosstown corridor" that anybody not driving an ATV could negotiate.

    "Good money after bad?" Sure -- but, as one of the foremost engineers in the state told me years ago, "keeping the money flowing to the contractors is ODOT's focus."

    They're going to have to come over the bodies of a growing alliance of knowledgeable citizens to get their hands on the actual Union Station rail yard -- and this alliance is growing in power and influence, not just here (if we'd waited for our fellow Oklahomans to wise up, the fight would already be over) -- but around the country.

    "Rail is dead and the car killed it?" Tell it to Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake, Sacramento, Portland, Phoenix, Little Rock, Albuqueque, Austin, Houston, and on and on. Who's ready for $4.07 per gallon gasoline?

    They are -- or are now well along in getting there.

    We're not even ready to begin getting ready -- thanks to the absolute determination of the fine statesmen at ODOT to destroy our rail center -- and the endless, uniformed dithering of far, far too many Oklahomans.

    More expensive to upgrade Union Station yard than to fix the old Crosstown (or some such?) Why would anybody say this? Longtime bridge division director at ODOT, now retired, said just a few years back that the old Crosstown could be refurbished to be better than it ever was before -- to serve indefinitely -- at well below $50 million.

    ODOT leadership insisted the whole "New Crosstown" project would cost "only $236 million."

    ODOT leadership now quietly admits it doesn't begin to have the money to finish the job.

    Today -- anybody can see that central Oklahoma not only needs Union Station and its rail connections, but needs it now.

    Thanks to the work of a few -- it is still available.

    The world situation and fuel price trends should have ended this argument -- but Oklahomans continue to dither.

    Those of us who've been talking plain sense about the whole situation from the beginning did not get in this fight to lose it. Our position is growing stronger day by day -- as ODOT draws nearer exhaustion of available moneys. Plainly -- we've always been right about this situation, and ODOT has always -- always -- been dead wrong.

    Meanwhile, the Belle Isle bridge (ODOT's last "most expensive bridge project in state history") is looking worse and worse, as are many other metro bridges and roads -- and the price of motor fuel just keeps right on rising.

    The reality is this: As a multimodal transportation center, OKC Union Station is exactly where it ought to be. Only those who do not understand what a multimodal hub is supposed to do would say otherwise.

    Neal McCaleb, Bob Poe, Tom Love and their associates want the Union Station yard gone -- because they know full well what it means. It means liberation of the Oklahoma public from highway domination.

    Union Station is the only opportunity Oklahomans now living have to see a comprehensive, regional transit system in their lifetimes.

    TOM ELMORE
    North American Transportation Institute
    OKC

  23. #23

    Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Well, before he's bashed for being some anonymous troll, he at least started off by giving his name and title. I do take notice to some of his points, but I think the new crosstown is just as much about downtown development than it is another road.

    Tom, I do agree with you about keeping Union Station functionable.
    ...this shortest straw has been pulled for you

  24. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    howdy tom,
    so your position is growing stronger and stronger everyday?? are you sure you're not a part of SAVE OUR SONICS, cuz they say the same thing about the losing battle they're in.
    btw, when our fancy new crosstown is opened to traffic.... i'm gonna do a BILL down I-40 and waste as much gas as possible! all while admiring the cool bridges overhead... and i don't give a flying fart if gas is 6 bux a gallon by then.
    btw, i fully understand what an intermodal station is designed to do and am quite informed as well.

  25. Default Re: New I-40 Crosstown

    Having my public support will probably detract from your credability Tom, but if there is anyone in Oklahoma more knowledgable about transportation than you, or with a sharper wit, I have yet to meet them. Always a pleasure reading your comments my friend.
    The Old Downtown Guy

    It will take decades for Oklahoma City's
    downtown core to regain its lost gritty,
    dynamic urban character, but it's exciting
    to observe and participate in the transformation.

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