OKC Commuter Rail

[BG918]

After replying in the Warren Theater thread about how that was a missed opportunity for Moore, it got me thinking about this one I created a while back. To avoid things like that happening again it is important to begin PLANNING for such a commuter rail system NOW. Just imagine if the Quail Springs Crossing project U/C north of Penn and Memorial were part of a planned TOD for north OKC??? If Spring Creek shopping center in Edmond had been built in downtown around the station instead??? If all the new development in Moore or Norman along I-35 was located around future rail stops??? Sorry for the rant, but the quicker we plan for this thing the more success it will have once we finally build it. Sure people will ride it to go to work and events downtown but the true success of the system will be in connecting the largest cities in the Metro and the TOD's around each station.

Also, I would add a stop at NW 63rd to my list above which is similar to what is actually "planned" with the FGS. I add that because it is a gateway to Nichols Hills and a fairly densely populated part of the city and because of what Chesapeake has planned for that area. There would be an additional "north OKC" stop but I'm not sure where exactly, either at Wilshire or Britton IMO.

The downtown map showing where commuter rail connects to the light rail system, a key component to its success:

[flintysooner]

The fixed guideway plan I recall had a train stop at Moore's 4th and Broadway location. In fact it was the south end of the phase I plans I believe.

Personally I'd rather see and would support a very ambitious plan to at least tie together Norman, Edmond, the airport, Tinker, something west, and downtown.

But these things take so long I just want to see something get started.

[betts]

The fixed guideway plan I recall had a train stop at Moore's 4th and Broadway location. In fact it was the south end of the phase I plans I believe.

Personally I'd rather see and would support a very ambitious plan to at least tie together Norman, Edmond, the airport, Tinker, something west, and downtown.

But these things take so long I just want to see something get started.

I agree. With gasoline prices rising, and availability in question, we need to start something sooner rather than later. My daughter, who has lived in Atlanta for four years, recently started riding MARTA, which she thought she'd never do. Her roommate is as well. When gasoline prices get high enough, or traffic gets bad enough, people whom you think would never get out of their cars and take public transportation just may do so.

Since I spent years using public transportation in Denver, I have no misgivings about it at all. As soon as something decent is available, I'll use it. I will NOT, however, stand in the grass next to a bus stop because there's no bench or overhead covering. That is something that needs to be fixed ASAP.

[CuatrodeMayo]

I sketched this out a while back when I was thinking about an Edmond-Norman line. Turn on the satellite image and you can see how the significant architectural element of the station lines up with the tower on Old Central on the UCO campus.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=107022609557984163662. 00000112dd8116b57abd1&om=1&z=15

[HOT ROD]

Looks very good BG!

[PennyQuilts]

My husband takes the communter train to work in Washington, DC, everyday. The interstate traffic is so horrendous that it is just too iffy to try to drive. That being said, on the communter train, they are constantly caught behind freight lines annd if the trains run on time 3 out of 5 days, it is a thrill. And that is in the DC area where mass transit has been used, successfully, for decades.

The problem with a congrested area is that you have to factor in wrecks, slow trains, etc., all the time. My husband could drive to work in 35 minutes if the traffic cooperated but with wrecks, construction, etc., you'd have to add in an extra hour, every day, to ensure you get to work on time - maybe. This area has rivers so you aren't on a grid the way you are in Oklahoma City. There are upteen different ways to get where you are going in OKC and you can drive around wrecks, most of the time. Not so in this area. You are stuck on the interstate and due to rivers, that is your only way through if you are going north/south. Adding in an extra hour or so a day is a lot of time to sit around on the off chance that something will go wrong - and an hour is probably not enough if there really is a wreck. So he takes the train, instead. It still takes a lot longer but at least it is more predictable and he can read and drink his coffee. You get regular 20 minute delays vs. the distinct possibility of an hour or two on the highway. So he ends up with a three hour a day commute. Insanity, I know.

And the point of all that is when people have a reliable means to get where they are going within a reasonable period of time, most of them are going to do that instead of relying on a train. I think it would be great for big events but even then, the parking involved in getting to a depot would be horrible.

[flintysooner]

Just for reference here is the link to the Oklahoma Fixed Guideway Study site.

My hope is that they will build something that will already have people at each end of whatever they build. Like airport to downtown or Tinker or OU or UCO. My fear is that they won't do that and then the thing will be proclaimed a failure because of low usage volume.

[metro]

I agree. With gasoline prices rising, and availability in question, we need to start something sooner rather than later. My daughter, who has lived in Atlanta for four years, recently started riding MARTA, which she thought she'd never do. Her roommate is as well. When gasoline prices get high enough, or traffic gets bad enough, people whom you think would never get out of their cars and take public transportation just may do so.

Since I spent years using public transportation in Denver, I have no misgivings about it at all. As soon as something decent is available, I'll use it. I will NOT, however, stand in the grass next to a bus stop because there's no bench or overhead covering. That is something that needs to be fixed ASAP.

I used to ride the MARTA all the time. During the 1996 Olympics it was a MUST.

[HOT ROD]

Just for reference here is the link to the Oklahoma Fixed Guideway Study site.

My hope is that they will build something that will already have people at each end of whatever they build. Like airport to downtown or Tinker or OU or UCO. My fear is that they won't do that and then the thing will be proclaimed a failure because of low usage volume.

I agree Flinty.

That is one of the peeves of mine regarding our new Sound Transit "central link' light rail line that is under construction. It will only run from downtown Seattle to the Airport and is projected to have ONLY 15,000-25,000 riders per day. Now that includes commuters (as it does run through some populated areas of South Seattle).

My peeve is, aside from Downtown Seattle, the light rail goes to NO major employer, NO major attraction, and runs through the "poorer" sections of S. Seattle (we don't really have ghettos here, just 'poor' sections). While there's nothing wrong with being poor or living in the poor section of town (or ghettos in OKC, Chicago, NY, elsewhere for that matter); Im pissed (excuse my lingo) because we are spending $4B (yes billion) for a 14 mile line that will get max 30,000 riders daily. That's ridiculous!!!

How could we have fixed this? Well, there is a MAJOR attraction/employer 5 miles to the north of downtown Seattle - called the University of Washington. Also, along the way - is Seattle's most Densely populated 'hood known as Capital Hill. Even along its current alignment, they chose to AVOID a bedroom S. suburb known as Renton (which is known to have a Boeing assembly plant as well) and they avoid the largest mall in the state - SouthCenter - also in S. suburbs

At MINIMUM, the first light rail line should have gone from the UW to Downtown via Capital Hill. Im POSITIVE ridership projections would have been 4 fold! And the line would have cost the same (or cheaper, since originally the DT-SeaTac line was budgeted for $2B but has overrun to the current just shy of $4B total). If the line would have connected to Renton and Southcenter before hitting the airport; I'd imagine at least a 10 fold projection since those ARE DESTINATIONS!!!

It seems as though Seattle wants to become one of the handful of cities with transit to the airport (others include Chicago, NY, SF, Vancouver, PORTLAND OR, DCA) - yet what Seattle didn't understand IS those cities have lines elsewhere, NOT JUST TO THE AIRPORT!

I dont know ANYBODY who will park in downtown Seattle in order to take the light rail to the airport OR who would park at the airport to take the light rail to Downtown Seattle. ??? ..

So, I say - OKC should start with the downtown trolley; build up your central city. Get it dense and allow the streetcar trolley to build critical mass in downtown. The downtown streetcar trolley could funnel residents and visitors to work, to the games, to entertainment - all of which should grow and create critical mass of pedestrians - that could feed other forms of transit.

THEN from there, build commuter heavy rail along the BNSF corridor (from Guthrie to S. Norman via Downtown; with stops at Edmond downtown/UCO, S. Edmond PnR, N. OKC/Village PnR, Capitol, Capital Hill/Shields Transit Center, Crossroads PnR, N. Norman or Downtown Norman, S. Norman PnR). In all honesty, this commuter heavy rail should be easy to implement (you'd only need to build the stations/stops really and possibly double track some sections)/Amtrak could run it or at least get it started. ...

THEN with success from the downtown trolley and BNSF Commuter Rail, we could implement high-floor light rail (not heavy rail or low-floor trolley) to go E-W Yukon or El Reno to E. Midwest City/Choctaw via Downtown.

THEN or at the same time, we could implement a Streetcar (low-floor) line to go from the Airport to Downtown.

The key is, build critical mass - and what already is the most massive area of the state of Oklahoma? you guessed it, downtown Oklahoma City! But add in a transit line in downtown and you INCREASE pedestrian critical mass and improve options for workers, residents, and visitors which translate into MORE employment, More residents, and MORE visitors -- Downtown becomes the true economy and destination; which other areas desire to feed into. At that point, you build the other lines; FEED into your generator - Downtown OKC.

As for TOD, not all stops need to be. but I'd say the stops that are not PnR should be TOD (mostly those that are inner city or the downtown of a suburb).

[betts]

I would think fewer people take light rail to go to the airport in other cities than to go to work or shop. You've got to park your car regardless, and you've got all the baggage to handle. It's a pain hauling luggage through the airport if you've parked in the adjacent lot, much less from your car to the train, out of the train and into the airport. I seriously doubt a line to the airport would be that heavily used here, especially for those of us who would have to transfer trains, as the only through trains would be east-west. That should be the part of the line that is only done if we've got a bunch of money floating around, or it's part of a Midwest City to downtown, El Reno to downtown line that would be used regardless.

[flintysooner]

I had not really thought through the airport consideration and this is an interesting discussion. I was thinking about Washington D.C. when I visited there many years ago. I stayed out near the airport and took a shuttle from the hotel to the airport. Then I took the Metrorail, which was new then, into D.C.

Part of the attraction actually was riding the Metrorail just because of the novelty then.

But the other part was that there were hotels out there by the airport that were much more affordable than the ones closer to downtown. And parking in downtown was terrible even then.

Chicago was kind of that way for me, too. I'd fly in and stay at a hotel near the airport and take the train into town.

Airport idea for Oklahoma City needs more consideration for certain.

[Kerry]

A line to the airport is a must. I take my luggage on MARTA and I see lots of other people with luggage. It is very convenient for business travelers. Yes a family of 4 going on vacation for 2 weeks wouldn't want to bring 5 or 6 pieces aboard but a business traveler with one bag would. In London you can actually check your bag at the train station and get your boarding pass. You don’t see your luggage again until you pick it up at your destination. With self-service kiosks in Norman, Downtown, and Edmond you could check into your flight at the train station and check it with an attendant at the station and then you would not have bags to carry at all.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Sounds like a good idea. I was working on a project last semester in the Loop in Chicago. One of the features the client wanted in the building was a place to check luggage just like Kerry mentioned. Great idea.

An airport-city train connection is a MUST. Flying into Chicago, DC, and NYC, having a train into town is very helpful.

I have traveled with my wife (lotta luggage) in areas where I took the train and it wasn't that difficult. Especially since most trains acutally stop IN the terminal.

[BG918]

Just messing with Photoshop I have two lines for COMMUTER rail: the gray line (Edmond-downtown-Norman) and the orange line (downtown-airport). These would serve the suburbs of Edmond, Moore, and Norman and suburban parts of OKC as well as the airport. The gray line would connect with future urban light rail/streetcar (LRT) at Santa Fe downtown, Midtown (NE 10th), and at NW 63rd...see map above. Amtrak to Fort Worth and (hopefully) to Wichita and Tulsa/St. Louis would be accessible at the Santa Fe downtown and Downtown Norman stations.



Some notes:

The University of Oklahoma station at the southern end of the line would not have the same frequency of service as the other stations and would mainly be used for special events i.e. football games at the stadium.

All Norman stations would be well-integrated with CART bus routes.

The Crossroads station would be added only if a proposal to rework the mall into a transit-oriented development was developed.

The Britton and Memorial stations would make great TOD's with retail and residential surrounding them.

The NW 63rd station could be a key element in Aubrey McClendon's and CHK's mysterious "grand" plan for the Nichols Hills/Western/NW 63rd area.

Feel free to add your own comments...

[CuatrodeMayo]

I likey.

[metro]

any room for a Penn Square stop before hitting Nichols Hills at NW 63rd and Western?

[CuatrodeMayo]

I don't think the existing track right-of-way goes close enough.

[BG918]

Even if we don't build this thing for another 10-15 years we need to start planning now so TOD's can develop around future stations. An example would be Quail Creek shopping center north of Quail Springs Mall. That could have been built around a future Memorial Rd. station. Same goes for the Warren Theatre in Moore, could have been built near the downtown station where there is plenty of vacant land. Also the University North Park development in Norman, and others. If we build these along where the stops will go that will make the system that much better once trains are running...

Same goes for LRT in inner OKC, we need to get the routes planned NOW so development can start taking place.

[RabidRed]

A line to the airport is a must. I take my luggage on MARTA and I see lots of other people with luggage. It is very convenient for business travelers. Yes a family of 4 going on vacation for 2 weeks wouldn't want to bring 5 or 6 pieces aboard but a business traveler with one bag would. In London you can actually check your bag at the train station and get your boarding pass. You don’t see your luggage again until you pick it up at your destination. With self-service kiosks in Norman, Downtown, and Edmond you could check into your flight at the train station and check it with an attendant at the station and then you would not have bags to carry at all.

Love this idea!!

[flintysooner]

Same goes for the Warren Theatre in Moore, could have been built near the downtown station where there is plenty of vacant land.

The fixed guideway study has 20 commuter stations listed. The one in Moore is labeled "4th Street" and appears to be at Moore's SE 4th and the tracks. This station was actually the farthest south station in the Phase I plan as I recall. Here's the link to the PDF.

[BG918]

My plan is based on the FGS with a few differences. I've cut out a few stops just because I worry if you have too many it will take too long to get from, say, Edmond or Norman to downtown which defeats the purpose of rail. Moore, for example, would be best served by one station (IMO) in between the two main east-west streets and near the existing, albeit small, downtown that could become a TOD. Moore seems very I-35-centric though so that would be a big change for them, but one I think they could embrace. The more you build along I-35 the less of a chance that happens though which is why it is important to plan NOW.

I think some of the most exciting possibilities with this system will be the revitalization of rundown areas in south OKC. In Denver the area around where their LRT goes on the northside of downtown was once the worst part of the city and is now seeing new investment because of rail. Areas around SW 44th, Capitol Hill, SW 15th/Stockyards City, etc. could really benefit from this.

I also left out the line to MWC. That would happen so far into the future, if at all, I didn't feel the need to include it. I-35 corridor (gray line) is Priority #1 along with the LRT starter line from OUHSC to the blvd., then the airport (orange) line and then the Walker/Classen line from the river through downtown to inner city neighborhoods (midtown, Asian District, OCU, Crown Heights, Belle Isle) to Nichols Hills & Penn Square. Another line connecting NH/Penn Square to midtown/OUHSC would round it out. The Sheridan Trolley would be a way of connecting commuter rail and LRT into Bricktown, into the CBD (would run right by Devon's new tower), and into the Arts District/Film Row. That (the Sheridan Trolley) is not part of FGS but should be...

[traxx]

I'd definately take a light rail to work and back if it ran at the right times and the price was right. What would also be nice is to have bike rentals at the stops so you could bike to wherever you're going when you get off the commuter train.

[flintysooner]

In the Moore case the depot needs to be near the track. I don't know if they are using the track or just the right-of-way. 19th Street might be better though because you have Convergys there; a tremendous retail area with Wal-mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Penney's, Warren, and more planned; and 19th Street has a railroad underpass which is increasingly significant.

I would connect that area (the Riverwalk area) via trolley route to downtown Moore and then perhaps another trolley from downtown Moore north to 27th Street area.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BG918
"10th and Broadway are perfect for a light rail line connecting OUHSC to midtown to lower downtown. The median could be turned into a ROW and there is a fair amount of density. Still could use more though, and this project is a step in the right direction. "
Light rail would not be the appropriate solution. Inner-City circulation is better accomplished with other systems like trolleys or street cars. Fixed rail street cars are the most appealing, and fun to ride, but OKC will probably go for "modern street cars" which are buses designed similar in appearance to trains and they use elevated platforms at their stops.

A light rail system should already be under construction connecting Norman, OKC, Edmond and Guthrie, but there is a dearth of mass-transit leadership in Oklahoma. So vast hoards commuters will continue to squander their precious time and hard earned incomes on gasoline; driving their SUVs to work and back on bond funded highways that we have no money to maintain.

[BG918]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BG918
"10th and Broadway are perfect for a light rail line connecting OUHSC to midtown to lower downtown. The median could be turned into a ROW and there is a fair amount of density. Still could use more though, and this project is a step in the right direction. "
Light rail would not be the appropriate solution. Inner-City circulation is better accomplished with other systems like trolleys or street cars. Fixed rail street cars are the most appealing, and fun to ride, but OKC will probably go for "modern street cars" which are buses designed similar in appearance to trains and they use elevated platforms at their stops.

A light rail system should already be under construction connecting Norman, OKC, Edmond and Guthrie, but there is a dearth of mass-transit leadership in Oklahoma. So vast hoards commuters will continue to squander their precious time and hard earned incomes on gasoline; driving their SUVs to work and back on bond funded highways that we have no money to maintain.

Mick Cornett has stated that mass rail transit is a priority for the next MAPS referendum. Maybe OKC city government can lead the way pairing with cities like Edmond and Norman to fund rail?? And modern streetcars would be only slightly better than buses, we need light rail on the streets with its own dedicated ROW so it's FASTER than both a bus and driving your car...