Sonics owners push tax rebates

[solitude]

Solitude - what you described happens all of the time at Best Buy. They are called reward zone points.

No. Reward Zone points are for everybody. The rules are the same.

[solitude]

Once again this is not about taking away current tax dollars, but rebating 5% to 6% of payroll taxes on "NEW", high paying jobs.

That's truly funny. The NBA gives, "high paying jobs" for workers a whole new meaning on planet Earth. Please, keep in mind, we're talking celebrity millionaire salaries here - and a league and owners who are willing to pay them these absurd salaries. These are hardly the "high paying jobs" the Quality Jobs Program was all about. It was never intended to rebate payroll tax on "workers" like Kevin Garnett of the Celtics. This "workers" wage: $24,000.000.00 per year.

[Swake2]

You are assuming that all of this business is going to be in OKC, you need to check out the the Business & Transportation section of the Outlook 2008 in the Sunday paper. Since 1994, companies "across OK" have received more then $526 million dollars in rebates under this program. I'm not saying it's a perfect program, but other states are coping our model in order to bring new jobs to their states.

Once again this is not about taking away current tax dollars, but rebating 5% to 6% of payroll taxes on "NEW", high paying jobs.

The FC was not built with state tax dollar, but with tax dollar collected in OKC. Bought and paid for. Now the income derived from the FC go's to the city. The basketball team does not receive any income from other events held at the FC.

Now we can debate whether the team is getting a sweet deal on the whole package, and we are taking a lot on faith that this will improve OKC and the surrounding area, but wasn't what this whole MAPS thing was about in the first place. We took it on faith, that if we built all of these projects, that it would hopefully improve the quality of life for all. This was the vision that Ron Norick had for OKC.

You misunderstand. I am in favor of the quality jobs act. But not all new jobs are created the same and service industry jobs should be excluded entirely. Again, these NBA jobs may be “new” to the people that will occupy them but the money that will pay those salaries already exists in the Oklahoma economy today.

An example. Let’s say there’s a McDonald’s in Bugtown, Oklahoma. Would you give tax incentives and quality jobs money to someone wanting to open a Burger King next door? Bugtown only has so many people wanting to buy so many burgers. Burger King is not really going to add any new jobs or money into Bugtowns economy. It’s just going to divide the existing burger market in Bugtown between two stores. Over time the net impact of the Burger King is zero on the Bugtown economy.

The Sonics moving here bring no new money into the state economy. They are supported by local money. Now if Microsoft wants to move a design studio that is currently located in Seattle to Oklahoma City, that really would be new money in our economy and should be eligible for the Quality Jobs act. Microsoft would pay for that design studio through sales of their products around the world. The Sonics will be supported by local spending on tickets, ads, merchandise and the like. The number of tickets sold to people from out of state will be very small, and the likelihood that such a visitor would have come to Oklahoma City purely for an NBA game is even smaller. The Sonics should not be eligible for this tax rebate and the state should not be supporting them in this way.

Once again, these are NOT new jobs to the Oklahoma economy.

[Swake2]

You are assuming that all of this business is going to be in OKC, you need to check out the the Business & Transportation section of the Outlook 2008 in the Sunday paper. Since 1994, companies "across OK" have received more then $526 million dollars in rebates under this program. I'm not saying it's a perfect program, but other states are coping our model in order to bring new jobs to their states.

Once again this is not about taking away current tax dollars, but rebating 5% to 6% of payroll taxes on "NEW", high paying jobs.

The FC was not built with state tax dollar, but with tax dollar collected in OKC. Bought and paid for. Now the income derived from the FC go's to the city. The basketball team does not receive any income from other events held at the FC.

Now we can debate whether the team is getting a sweet deal on the whole package, and we are taking a lot on faith that this will improve OKC and the surrounding area, but wasn't what this whole MAPS thing was about in the first place. We took it on faith, that if we built all of these projects, that it would hopefully improve the quality of life for all. This was the vision that Ron Norick had for OKC.

You misunderstand. I am in favor of the quality jobs act. But not all new jobs are created the same and service industry jobs should be excluded entirely. Again, these NBA jobs may be “new” to the people that will occupy them but the money that will pay those salaries already exists in the Oklahoma economy today.

An example. Let’s say there’s a McDonald’s in Bugtown, Oklahoma. Would you give tax incentives and quality jobs money to someone wanting to open a Burger King next door? Bugtown only has so many people wanting to buy so many burgers. Burger King is not really going to add any new jobs or money into Bugtowns economy. It’s just going to divide the existing burger market in Bugtown between two stores. Over time the net impact of the Burger King is zero on the Bugtown economy.

The Sonics moving here bring no new money into the state economy. NBA teams are supported by local money. Now if Microsoft wants to move a design studio that is currently located in Seattle to Oklahoma City, that really would be new money in our economy and should be eligible for the Quality Jobs act. Microsoft would pay for that design studio through sales of their products around the world. The Sonics will be supported by local spending on tickets, ads, merchandise and the like. The number of tickets sold to people from out of state will be very small, and the likelihood that such a visitor would have come to Oklahoma City purely for an NBA game is even smaller. The Sonics should not be eligible for this tax rebate and the state should not be supporting them in this way.

Once again, these are NOT new jobs to the Oklahoma economy.

[andy157]

Why are we all fighting over things that have already happen? We should be making better, and more productive use of our time and energy. We need to find a way, or come up with a solution to reimburse the Sonics owners for the legel fees they have been out, or will be out, to get us our team. We are the ones who will benefit, why should they have to pay. It's not right.

[Saberman]

Why are we all fighting over things that have already happen? We should be making better, and more productive use of our time and energy. We need to find a way, or come up with a solution to reimburse the Sonics owners for the legel fees they have been out, or will be out, to get us our team. We are the ones who will benefit, why should they have to pay. It's not right.

I agree, we are arguing over something thats already done, but using their argument then we don't want any new business, because that takes away from existing businesses. The theroy is, the more variety of business and entertainment we have the more likely new business from out of state comes in, and new people move here, and less people move away because the quality of life is better.

Granted most of these guys are over paid, and this does not take away from what they pay in taxes. But for every player there are 10(guess)people employed(trainers, sales, maintenance, etc.), getting benefit, buying houses, paying taxes, and spending money. Not all of those people live here now. Do you think they will just stay in OKC and never go to Tulsa, the lake, Roman Nose, or live in Edmond, Midwest City, or Piedmont, or Norman. The list could go on and on. Now you say how much are these few people going to effect the economy, but it is a start, the hope is that it will start the snowball rolling.

Or NOT, but unless we make the effort, were pretty sure it won't happen if we do nothing. Our legislature is pretty good at reneging on deals if they don't work out. Ask GM, oh we can't their gone.

[andy157]

I agree, we are arguing over something thats already done, but using their argument then we don't want any new business, because that takes away from existing businesses. The theroy is, the more variety of business and entertainment we have the more likely new business from out of state comes in, and new people move here, and less people move away because the quality of life is better.

Granted most of these guys are over paid, and this does not take away from what they pay in taxes. But for every player there are 10(guess)people employed(trainers, sales, maintenance, etc.), getting benefit, buying houses, paying taxes, and spending money. Not all of those people live here now. Do you think they will just stay in OKC and never go to Tulsa, the lake, Roman Nose, or live in Edmond, Midwest City, or Piedmont, or Norman. The list could go on and on. Now you say how much are these few people going to effect the economy, but it is a start, the hope is that it will start the snowball rolling.

Or NOT, but unless we make the effort, were pretty sure it won't happen if we do nothing. Our legislature is pretty good at reneging on deals if they don't work out. Ask GM, oh we can't their gone.

No...No...No. Forget about all of the other crap thats happen. Thats water under the bridge. What's important now is that we the taxpayers of this City (OKC) but more especially the State, find a way to reimburse the Sonics owners for any, and all, out of pocket expenses they have incurred to bring us our team. The owners are going to need our financial support now more than ever. These lawsuits they are facing will be expensive.

[Kerry]

No. Reward Zone points are for everybody. The rules are the same.- Solitude

And the Quality Jobs prgram is for everyone also. If you meet the criteria of the program then your company qualifies. Just like Reqard Zone points at Best Buy. If you sign up for their program and spend $100 then you get a $5 gift card. But you have to spend the $100. Their program is designed to reward their customers that spend a lot of money at their store. Exacly like the Quality Jobs program is designed to bring quality jobs to Oklahoma.

[OU Adonis]

That's truly funny. The NBA gives, "high paying jobs" for workers a whole new meaning on planet Earth. Please, keep in mind, we're talking celebrity millionaire salaries here - and a league and owners who are willing to pay them these absurd salaries. These are hardly the "high paying jobs" the Quality Jobs Program was all about. It was never intended to rebate payroll tax on "workers" like Kevin Garnett of the Celtics. This "workers" wage: $24,000.000.00 per year.

So would you have the same problem if we could lure some high salary execs?

Or do you just have a problem with people in Basketball trunks making a lot of money?

[Swake2]

No...No...No. Forget about all of the other crap thats happen. Thats water under the bridge. What's important now is that we the taxpayers of this City (OKC) but more especially the State, find a way to reimburse the Sonics owners for any, and all, out of pocket expenses they have incurred to bring us our team. The owners are going to need our financial support now more than ever. These lawsuits they are facing will be expensive.

Is this satirical?

And the Quality Jobs prgram is for everyone also. If you meet the criteria of the program then your company qualifies. Just like Reqard Zone points at Best Buy. If you sign up for their program and spend $100 then you get a $5 gift card. But you have to spend the $100. Their program is designed to reward their customers that spend a lot of money at their store. Exacly like the Quality Jobs program is designed to bring quality jobs to Oklahoma.

The law had to be CHANGED for the Sonics. They did not qualify. Service industry jobs should not qualify.

I agree, we are arguing over something thats already done, but using their argument then we don't want any new business, because that takes away from existing businesses. The theroy is, the more variety of business and entertainment we have the more likely new business from out of state comes in, and new people move here, and less people move away because the quality of life is better.

I never said the team moving to Oklahoma City was not a good thing, but state support is inappropriate and the use of Quality Jobs to pad the bottom line is wrong.

[donuteyes]

my fear is that IF things don't work out, for whatever reason, bennett will jump ship, and leave us high and dry. if he doesn't want to fight a drawn-out legal battle with schultz AND pay to get out of the key arena lease, he may say, "to heck with this," and sell the team back. if he comes here and doesn't make the money he thinks he might in the long-term, he might sell the team to someone from, i don't know, kansas city, who has a debt-free arena now and wants a team.

and don't say it's a sure thing that an NBA team will thrive in OKC. if it was such a sure thing, we'd have a team. we did well with the hornets, but hosting and having are worlds apart. i'd love a team and will support them, but if you look at this objectively, it's not the way business is normally done with regards to relocation of a team.

and if a judge can be convinced that bennett did not make enough of an effort to keep them in seattle (per the agreement), bennett will lose the team, and we'll never get them.

i'm not saying any of this will happen, but you're lying to yourself if you think it couldn't. don't be blinded by excitement, and stay grounded and look at the overall picture. if this could happen in seattle, it could very well happen here, and that's what worries me.

[andy157]

Is this satirical?



The law had to be CHANGED for the Sonics. They did not qualify. Service industry jobs should not qualify.



I never said the team moving to Oklahoma City was not a good thing, but state support is inappropriate and the use of Quality Jobs to pad the bottom line is wrong.

Regarding your first question. Of course not. I think the owners have more than gone out of their way, and spent more than enough of their money, to get us our own team.

[Kerry]

If high paying service industry jobs were previously excluded from Quality Jobs then that was a mistake and I look at this change as a correction to a previous error. However, I think the change in the law had more to do with the Sonics getting a rebate on visting players salaries. I am opposed to that portion of the law. In fact, the whole idea of Quality Jobs is that when a company moves to Oklahoma they will bring with them certain related companies that won't qualify for the program, i.e. visiting teams. When you give the visting team a tax rebate it defeats the purpose.

[Swake2]

If high paying service industry jobs were previously excluded from Quality Jobs then that was a mistake and I look at this change as a correction to a previous error. However, I think the change in the law had more to do with the Sonics getting a rebate on visting players salaries. I am opposed to that portion of the law. In fact, the whole idea of Quality Jobs is that when a company moves to Oklahoma they will bring with them certain related companies that won't qualify for the program, i.e. visiting teams. When you give the visting team a tax rebate it defeats the purpose.

This is nonsense, what does it matter from an economic perspective what a service industry job pays. That job is still supported by local spending and adds no new money to the local economy.

[Swake2]

Regarding your first question. Of course not. I think the owners have more than gone out of their way, and spent more than enough of their money, to get us our own team.

In a poor state with crumbling infrastructure, woefully underfunded schools and poor public health care using state tax funds to ensure that a billionaire sports team owner (that has just gotten an inappropriate 100+ million dollar tax rebate) doesn't experience too much cost in a lawsuit related his for profit entertainment venture is beyond absurd and borders on immoral.

[Kerry]

In a poor state with crumbling infrastructure, woefully underfunded schools and poor public health care... Swake2

At least we now know the angle you are operating from. I guess until every sq inch of pavement in Oklahoma is perfect, and every child gets straight A's, and every person lives to 150 years and only dies from having too much sex then Oklahoma should never spend a single dollar on anything else. This subject bores me - I'm out.

[Swake2]

At least we now know the angle you are operating from. I guess until every sq inch of pavement in Oklahoma is perfect, and every child gets straight A's, and every person lives to 150 years and only dies from having too much sex then Oklahoma should never spend a single dollar on anything else. This subject bores me - I'm out.

Way to claim positions for me that I don't agree with.


Tell me Kerry, do you still beat your wife?

[andy157]

In a poor state with crumbling infrastructure, woefully underfunded schools and poor public health care using state tax funds to ensure that a billionaire sports team owner (that has just gotten an inappropriate 100+ million dollar tax rebate) doesn't experience too much cost in a lawsuit related his for profit entertainment venture is beyond absurd and borders on immoral.

Indeed we may be poor now, and yes our current infrastructure, schools, and health care may suck. But the Sonics are coming. Happy days are just around the corner.

[HOT ROD]

swake, et al.

Once and for all. the state is NOT using any money to get the Sonics. They are giving a rebate on a portion of payroll taxes that WOULD HAVE BEEN PAID.

In other words, the state IS NOT taking money from A to pay Bennett for bringing in the team. The state IS NOT subsidizing Bennett.

The state is ONLY capping the payroll taxes that Bennett will PAY with the NEW JOBS that Oklahoma City will get (but does not already have - so since OKC does not already have the team/jobs, right now - NO MONEY IS BEING PAID).

GET IT? The State is NOT SUBSIDIZING THE SONICS, THEY ARE ONLY MAKING IT EASIER FOR THEM TO BE PROFITABLE - BY LOWERING THE AMOUNT OF TAX THE TEAM WOULD HAVE TO PAY!!!!!!!!!

I can not say this enough for you Tulsa guys!!!! YOU ARE NOT SUBSIDIZING THE TEAM OR GETTING HOSED. The state does not get this money right now, and wont be giving anything away.

In all actuality, the state will get MORE TAX revenue (than currently) when the team comes and payroll taxes are paid on the 170+ jobs. IT IS JUST, THE AMOUNT WILL BE CAPPED!!!!!!!

Understand .........

Please inform your peers, Im really getting tired of this needless, ignorant whining!

[Saberman]

HR I understand your frustration, but there will always be people that will never get what your trying to say, even if you explain it to them in a million different ways.

It's the same reason political parties will never get along.

One says black, the other says white. All you can really do is explain your view, and hope to convince them to see things your way. We are all products of our environment, schooling, the way we were brought up, and the sum of our experiences.

Hopefully, we can convince enough people that this will be good for everyone in Oklahoma.

[Swake2]

swake, et al.

Once and for all. the state is NOT using any money to get the Sonics. They are giving a rebate on a portion of payroll taxes that WOULD HAVE BEEN PAID.

In other words, the state IS NOT taking money from A to pay Bennett for bringing in the team. The state IS NOT subsidizing Bennett.

The state is ONLY capping the payroll taxes that Bennett will PAY with the NEW JOBS that Oklahoma City will get (but does not already have - so since OKC does not already have the team/jobs, right now - NO MONEY IS BEING PAID).

GET IT? The State is NOT SUBSIDIZING THE SONICS, THEY ARE ONLY MAKING IT EASIER FOR THEM TO BE PROFITABLE - BY LOWERING THE AMOUNT OF TAX THE TEAM WOULD HAVE TO PAY!!!!!!!!!

I can not say this enough for you Tulsa guys!!!! YOU ARE NOT SUBSIDIZING THE TEAM OR GETTING HOSED. The state does not get this money right now, and wont be giving anything away.

In all actuality, the state will get MORE TAX revenue (than currently) when the team comes and payroll taxes are paid on the 170+ jobs. IT IS JUST, THE AMOUNT WILL BE CAPPED!!!!!!!

Understand .........

Please inform your peers, Im really getting tired of this needless, ignorant whining!

You are just plain dense or you just don’t want to get the point.

The taxes are not currently paid by the Sonics, but, the taxes are paid today by the places where the money that will be spent on Sonics tickets is being spent today. The Sonics are not going to bring new money into the Oklahoma economy. The Sonics will derive revenue nearly entirely from local sources. That money will be spent next year in the Oklahoma economy even if the Sonics don’t come, so the tax revenue on that spending already exists in the Oklahoma economy but WILL NOT once the Sonics move here. That is a net loss to the state budget and we all will have to make it up.

[Saberman]

You are just plain dense or you just don’t want to get the point.

The taxes are not currently paid by the Sonics, but, the taxes are paid today by the places where the money that will be spent on Sonics tickets is being spent today. The Sonics are not going to bring new money into the Oklahoma economy. The Sonics will derive revenue nearly entirely from local sources. That money will be spent next year in the Oklahoma economy even if the Sonics don’t come, so the tax revenue on that spending already exists in the Oklahoma economy but WILL NOT once the Sonics move here. That is a net loss to the state budget and we all will have to make it up.

Again you assume there will be the is only a finite amount of money to spend, and that there will be no new growth in our economy.

We hope that fewer people go and spend money in Dallas, and that others will come to OKC from out of state, because there is more going on

The Oklahoman reported today the unemployment is down to 3.2%, that mean that more people are working. As we have less people to work, businesses pay more, new people move hear for jobs.

Economies are not stagnate.

[Swake2]

Again you assume there will be the is only a finite amount of money to spend, and that there will be no new growth in our economy.

We hope that fewer people go and spend money in Dallas, and that others will come to OKC from out of state, because there is more going on

The Oklahoman reported today the unemployment is down to 3.2%, that mean that more people are working. As we have less people to work, businesses pay more, new people move hear for jobs.

Economies are not stagnate.

You are really struggling with basic economics here.

The amount of money gained or recaptured in the state economy (as opposed to the Oklahoma City economy) from other economies by the presence of an NBA team is very small. Locally for Oklahoma City the market impact should be slightly positive as there will be some small influx of money gained from other instate economies (for the most part Tulsa). I have read here that some 2% of Hornets season tickets were from people in Tulsa, double that for the number of tickets sold to other regional economies and you still have 96% of the revenue that feeds the Sonics will be locally derived from the Oklahoma City metro. Even so, that is a small net 4% gain to the local OKC economy, but this is not any gain at all for the state economy.

Consider that if you only got 2% of your ticket sales from a metro of almost a million people just 90 miles away then the number of ticket sales to people from 200+ miles away will be nearly non-existent. Therefore any positive impact from visitors to Oklahoma City would be a net wash to the state economy as nearly all visitors traveling to OKC for the NBA will be from other component Oklahoma economies. The facts that the positive marketing impact and any small positive tourist impact will be felt only locally in Oklahoma City are exactly why it’s inappropriate for the state to help fund this team.

All of this goes to show that the growth rate of the state economy is irrelevant to this conversation. The Sonics don’t add any substantive new money into the economy, even to OKC’s economy and will therefore actually act as a leach to that growth. In fact the salaries are so out of wack with local median incomes that that the presence of the team and it’s impact on the normal distribution of local discretionary spending should tend to actually increase local unemployment and decrease median incomes.

All the Sonics are going to do with local economics is change where discretionary spending is spent. That has nothing to do with growth. And there is zero economic growth tied to the Sonics at the statewide economic level.

[betts]

Actually, 20% of Hornets' season tickets were purchased by Tulsa residents. It is true that some of the Sonics' salaries will be paid with money derived from discretionary income in the region. However, there is now a $49 million revenue sharing package per team that comes from NBA television income. There will also be jobs created in administration, marketing and team management that will be new. I seriously doubt any or many people from Seattle will be moving here to fill those jobs. And, where a team actually does generate income from outside the state is when it hosts playoff games, which brings media people and fans in from outside the city or, even better, an All Star game.

[andy157]

exactly Saberman.

I don't know why we have people thinking the state is "giving" anything to the NBA, they're NOT. There is NO SUBSIDY.

We're not taking money from A or B or Tulsa to give to the Sonics. .. The ONLY place that could be said to be subsidizing the Sonics is the City of Oklahoma City (and even that is incorrect since the city is not giving money directly to the team but instead is paying for the arena upgrades, much of which would have been done anyways!)

Nope, as to the State - It's only a REDUCTION in what the Sonics would have to pay.

So Tulsa (and the rest of the state who think OKC owes them) can drop the state team name kick. SOMEONE WITH A TULSANOW ACCOUNT, PLEASE!!!! GO INFORM OUR SUPPOSEDLY ARTICULATE NEIGHBOURS.

It's NOT only a reduction in what the Sonics would have to pay. It's a "cash REBATE of up to 5% of the taxable wages the team pays in payroll".