A little rant about urban sprawl

[PapaJack]

bdub02's analysis is "spot on." Maps for Kids put lipstick on the pig. You can buy new schools and computer labs, but you can't reverse twenty five years of decline and decadence. It took a generation for OKC schools to get in the mess they are in, so it will probably take at least that long to resolve the situation. Charter schools put control of education in the hands of parents who care, but I doubt if many of those parents moved into OKC School District to promote charter schools.

I prefer to use the term "Country Experience" rather than "Urban Sprawl." But am I also "putting lipstick on a pig"?

[PennyQuilts]

I am not going to stay in a nasty, crowded urban area just to make sure that the infrastructure is paid for. The people who live there can keep it up if that is where they want to live. The schools are crap and if I had kids needing to be educated, I'd have to put them in private school or stay up at night worrying. If I am going to have to shell out that kind of cash, anyway, I'm heading for a community that has nice schools and elbow room. My kids all live in NYC with access to the subways. They have strong opinions about going green (they're for it). That being said, I notice that anyone who can afford to takes cabs or hires cars - my kids, their friends and co-workers, included. They DO walk a lot and it keeps them in shape. That is a definite benefit. At the same time, as much as they love NYC, I don't see them wanting to raise kids there (none here, yet). We'll see, of course.

[FritterGirl]

I've got to say that I smell what GAWD AWFUL is cookin'. There have been times that I feel my "suburban" lifestyle has been put down by those who have a quasi-elitist attitude about life in "south of 50th," shall I say. It's not direct, but is subtly intoned in some comments about, well, rather random things sometimes. Call it "downtown/midtown/urban snobbism" if you will.

We moved "to the burbs" for two reasons:

1) more bang for our housing buck;
2) husband is not in any stretch of the imagination a "fixer-upper" type, and while I might have preferred a lovely little 1930s bungalow something in Linwood, Gatewood or the like, there was no way in heck I could ever get my DSO to get into anything more than 10 years old.

That aside, I work downtown, go to a lot of events, entertainment venues, restaurants downtown, and as some know, work for an organization involved in attracting tourism to downtown. I LOVE downtown and support all of the efforts that are being made to enhance it.

Oklahoma City offers lifestyles for a variety of folks. That, to me, is one of its greatest strengths. It adds to our diversity, and to our cultural appeal, especially for any businesses that might wish to relocate to a place where their employees can find a variety of viable housing options. Not everyone with a salary of say $60k with 2.4 kids, 2 dogs and 1 cat can afford some of the larger homes in the mid-down quadrant.

While I agree that the City probably needs to start curbing some of its urban sprawl, the "burbs" do have their place in the world, and aren't really such a bad thing.

I would simply ask that those that tend to have a somewhat "elitist" view on life in the "metro" understand that it is not the lifestyle for everyone.

[Pete]

I mean this in all sincerity: Can someone point out posts where anyone here has criticized others for living in the suburbs?

The only thing I recall was a "Is Edmond Snobby?" thread and even that didn't come down on people for living there.

What have I missed?

[FritterGirl]

Pete,

I'll try to dig through some threads and show you some examples via pm. Again, it's very subtle. More of a "if you're not living in the ''South 50 Zone,' you're part of the problem" type comments, but not that blatant.

It's more in the tone of the posts. And it's been in more than the "is Edmond snobby" thread.

[bandnerd]

I'm just sitting here thinking if I've ever put off that attitude...I hated living in Edmond...hated the traffic, the way people looked down on me for being a student (just my experience, I'm sure not everyone is that way), how no one ever seemed to eat at home and was always at Chili's, Outback, et al...and the strip malls....oh the strip malls...

I like living downtown because I can walk to my gym, hair place, bank, and in the summers, the farmer's market. It's fairly pedestrian-friendly, while in the suburbs I find it more difficult to get places on foot due to large expanses of housing or large intersections that are difficult to cross in the .8 seconds they seem to give you. I also work near here, and enjoy driving through the historic neighborhoods (though I can't afford to live there...yet...ha).

I have lived rural-ish life in southern OK, suburb life in Edmond, and urban in OKC. I would choose urban or rural over suburban any day, but that's just how I feel. I hope that I have not offended anyone. I know that my viewpoint may be hard for some to understand, though.

[Karried]

I've always thought it sort of depends on where you are in your life (stages).

I have kids... kids that I want to have the best education.. for me, that's Edmond schools, hence, living in Edmond.

Who's to say that when the kids go off to college I won't move downtown? ( that is if I have any money left after college!) lol

We all do what we do because it seems right at the time.. who really cares what other people say about it?

[Architect2010]

If education is the problem and you think the only good schools in OKC are private then your terribly wrong. There are several schools that cost nothing and achieve higher API scores than the suburb schools. Classen SAS, Astec, Dove Science Academy, Southeast High Specialty school of Technology, and Bell Isle. These are all nice schools that have high test scores, almost all of them scoring higher than suburb schools. Only a couple of them are private and the ones that are, are cheap. The other ones are either charter, or tech schools and they are considered "public" but you have to apply to get in and maintain a GPA. Schools should not be an issue with the amount of choices in OKC. Unless your children aren't smart enough to get in these schools then I can see your problem...=/

But unless you've been in every single school and know the daily activities of each school then you really don't know what OKC PS's are like. The only reason people think they're bad is because you hear about bad schools like CH or JM and it gives a horrible image of the rest of the schools.

But then there are better schools in suburbs than some of these honor schools, example:Edmond. But all in all, its just a lifestyle choice.

[Redskin 70]

interesting thread.
Urban sprawl is not a sustainable concept for two much longer.
Each spike in the price of gas coupled with the inherant unreliability of current autos vis via mileage causes one more family to pull up stakes and return to the inner ring burbs of yesteryear.
There was a time when the following were considered good locations to live.
Quail Creek, Bethaney and War Acres, Del City and Midwest City etc etc etc,
But over the last thirty years due to a lack of control on the housing builders
that sprawl was allowed ebcause the builders, correctly, bet the city would provide essential lservices as needed at no cost to the builder.
Now that cities are wising up especially on the fringe areas and requiring the builders to install the water ans swere systems rather than wells and septic,
I have noticed a resurgence of builders coming in
However, the inner rings burbs best friend will be $5 a gallon gas.
Then all the employees of Tinker wont want that house in Edmond and Guthrie because the commute will be a killer.
Just trends I am noticing from govt mags around the country and these trends do and will apply to OKC also.
Folks, I can remember when you drove south of 59th and there was nothing but farm houses.
I use to rabbit hunt at Meridian and Reno and
the Trip to NW Ok C Quail creek was like going to another city.

[onthestrip]

This argument can and probably will go on forever. It is just a lifestyle choice. Being a single man and in my mid-20s, I like living in the middle of the city. I want to be close to all entertainment/food options and because I hate rows and rows of houses that look just alike. Now when I have kids, it will be a different situation, but I cant really see myself ever moving to the burbs. Sure Edmond has good schools, but I have always thought a city school that has a more diverse student base offers many more things outside of whats considered your typical good education.
Not blasting anyone, these are just my opinions.

[Saberman]

Has anyone been to the Dallas area lately. People moving are moving out of Dallas so fast it would make your head spin.

My brother lives in McKinney, TX, and niece lives in Frisco, every time I go down there another square mile of housing development has gone up.

OKC, because of urban destruction, I mean renewal, destroyed development downtown 25 years ago. Forward thinking leadership has afforded us a chance to turn that kind of trend around. With proper future planning DT OKC could become a model of how a city can redefine itself. C2S offerers us the opportunity to change the face of OKC.

The baby boomers are starting to retire, gas price on the rise, and with kids leaving the nest, a lot of those people will be prime candidates for a well planned DT area to live. Lots of activity and events with walking distance. Even younger people will find this a great place to live.

OKC has a chance to make DT into urban cities of the future, we just have a long way to go..

[mecarr]

Maybe I'm just grumpy or something. Just tired of being picked at obliquely for an individual's choice I guess.

Hmm, I know you don't, but the way you talk makes it seem like you have some sort of an inferiority complex. I don't mind people who love the suburbs, I just think living downtown is more exciting and there's more to do. Being able to walk to places like the theatre, restaurants, etc, is a nice thing that's not found in suburbia..

[jbrown84]

The thing is, with gas getting where it is, it's going to be less and less practical to live in the outlying areas if you have ANY interest in shopping/entertainment beyond the big box stores and suburban movie theatres. If you work downtown or have any interest in the arts or nightlife or NBA or other recreational opportunities, it's going to start getting really expensive to live in the suburbs and drive to all that. If you work from home or nearby, and only ever shop at Walmart and Ross, they you're probably OK and it won't affect you.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I mean this in all sincerity: Can someone point out posts where anyone here has criticized others for living in the suburbs?

The only thing I recall was a "Is Edmond Snobby?" thread and even that didn't come down on people for living there.

What have I missed?

Off the top of my head (I've been out of town for two days though...So bear with me )....Midtowner got a sprawl jab in a few days ago, and metro does it from time to time as well. I'm not calling them out for any particular reason other than I've seen them do it. I'm sure there are others. And like I said...They weren't attacking anybody directly. It's never directed at individuals. I just saw three or four comments about it in the space of a few hours (I was reading old threads too). Just do a search with the term "sprawl" and a few will come up.

Think about this though...If I start taking shots at the general demographic (but not individuals) of people living downtown, I'd get pounded. "Boy, that's all we need...ANOTHER BAR downtown where nobody will go to it and beers will cost $8 each"...That statement would fly about as well as a lead balloon here.

Hmm, I know you don't, but the way you talk makes it seem like you have some sort of an inferiority complex. I don't mind people who love the suburbs, I just think living downtown is more exciting and there's more to do. Being able to walk to places like the theatre, restaurants, etc, is a nice thing that's not found in suburbia..

Actually, ask anybody...I've got quite a SUPERIORITY complex. And good on you for living where you like. My whole point of this thread was people taking pot shots at entire communities for not living up to their idea of utopia.

I'm not all up in a tiff or all bent out of shape about it. I was bored....I posted a mini-diatribe on something I'd noticed.

*shrugs*

[Pete]

I'm guilty of moaning about urban sprawl myself. The thing that frustrates me the most is that it is so incredibly extreme in OKC and there is no urban alternative.

For me, it would be far less of an issue if we already had a thriving central core. But now, we're pumping billions into an area that has been neglected for decades because it's the one place we all can come together as a community -- and that's very important to any city.


Having said all that, my entire 30 years in OKC were spent in what was definitely the suburbs at the time and I live in a suburban area now.

I think you can be an advocate for urban development (and for a community overall) regardless of where you live -- and I think that's what everyone is saying in different ways on this thread.


And finally, I think a clear distinction can be drawn between how you'd like to see a city planned and where people choose to live. Every city has thriving suburbs but any 'good' city is defined by a thriving central core and lots of great amenities for all members of the community.

[windowphobe]

I'm where I am because I like it here: it's convenient to both downtown and suburban mallage, there's some stuff within walking distance, and the houses come from the immediate post-WWII era, after they'd learned how to make workable single-story homes, but before they'd learned how to make them all look alike.