Why I am voting No.

[betts]

There is an additional fact that people might not know. Our elderly and the poor are eligible for a sales tax refund.

Oklahoma credit/refund of sales tax:
http://www.tax.ok.gov/it2007/538-S-07-W.pdf
credit/refund of $40 per person:
- persons with under $20,000 in gross household income
- persons with one dependent, or 65 years old or older, or physically disabled with under $50,000 in gross household income

People on TANF (welfare) get a sales tax refund in their monthly benefit.
- DHS makes sales tax refunds to those who are blind, disabled, or receive medicaid for nursing home care.

[Kerry]

I just can't figure this out. All of the economist tell us pro-sports teams don't have any economic value but for some reason every time a team moves the host city files a lawsuit to keep them. Go figure.

I understand the arguement that people only shift their disposable income from one venue to another when they go see a team play but what gets left out of the equations is the location of those venues. My guess is that a fair amount of people that attended Hornets games were from outside the OKC city limits. That would mean that people shift their spending from Edmond, Shawnee, Norman, etc to OKC and Bricktown. Sure, X number of dollars were spent but where it is spent is the key.

Don't get me started on the crumbling road, schools, and parks comment. Isn't OKC just finishing up a $500 million school renovation called MAPS for Kids and didn't the city just approve nearly $1 billion for roads, parks, etc? One thing I hate more than anything is mis-information. Just present the facts and let people make up thier minds.

[DavidGlover]

NBA economics, What they want to have happen, and what will probably happen. Have the tax payers pay for the the arena, turn over arena to team (for all concerts, tourneys etc.), make taxpayers pay for improvements - focus needs to be on revenue profit extracting improvements - that is the over riding reason for them, nba team keeps almost everything except pays city usually less than 1% return on the 100% taxpayer financed investment. That is how the game is played.

[SouthsideSooner]

Since you want to paint the NBA and team owners as bad guys and you're a self professed expert, I've got a few questions, David.

How much is the city making off the Ford Center now? How about the Bricktown Ballpark? How about the Civic Center? Should the city have entertainment venues? Should we have waited for billionaires to build those things for us?

How much is the NBA contributing to the new arenas in Tulsa, Wichita, Omaha, Louisville and Kansas City?

How much private investment followed the public investmest of MAPS 1 in our downtown area. Wouldn't that be considered economic gain? Weren't all those projects public amenities that would in one way or another be for entertainment?

Lastly, Since you want to portray the Sonics owners as trying to take advantage of the poor citizens of OKC maybe you can tell me how much they have contributed to our city and state through philanthropic means in the last 20 years? How much profit are they likely to make on the half-billion dollars they have spent to bring the NBA to OKC?

[Easy180]

Which theme, which sentence. Let me know, I will be able to tell you where it came from. I promise I have probably done more research into to this topic: Arena Economics, NBA Economics, Taxes, Corporate Welfare than anyone else on OKC Talk. I wish people could try to strip away the emotion and think and understand what is really going on.

It's pretty simple really...We continue paying a current tax for another 15 months and that lands us a great arena and our first ever major league sports team

Really no need to research this extensively...We are getting an NBA team for super cheap w/o paying anything extra...Ford even w/ the upgrades would be one of the cheapest arenas in the league

What is really going on is 8 guys spent a half billion combined on a team to move it to their hometown...Flip side is 1.5 million+ people aren't paying anything outside of what they currently shell out

Dam* those evil NBA owners!!!

[betts]

There are a lot of us who have done research into the economics of sports. In the interests of educating myself I suffered through Baade and Zimbalist and a few hangers on. I've read every argument, and I agree with a bunch of them. But it gets down to several things alluded to above. You cannot look at everything you support in a city in economic terms. Again, we get a terrible return on our investment in public parks, I'm pretty sure the Civic Center has events that are not only more expensive to attend than an NBA game, but it still needs financial support to stay afloat, I'm not sure what we're making on those overdue book fees at our public libraries, but I suspect it's not keeping them in the black. We support those amenities, and a multitude of others, because we know they improve quality of life for our citizens, even if we lose money on them.

The way I look at this, and you obviously look at it differently, having an NBA team is about having more options for leisure time activities, especially in the winter when here it's cold, dark and wet. We're not Miami. Our citizens can't loll on the beach in the winter. We're not Phoenix where you can actually go swimming or hiking. We're not Salt Lake City or Denver, where you can go skiing on the worst of days. Having an NBA team gives us 41 winter nights when there's something to do downtown that an entire family can enjoy together, that the city of Oklahoma City, and even the state, can enjoy together. You cannot put a dollar value on that.

The other problem with all the economists' work, is that there really isn't another city quite like Oklahoma City. We suffer under some fairly negtive labeling nationally. We're a hick town, it's a dustbowl here, we're rednecks, hillbillys, and worse. Even in less pejorative terms, if you did a national poll, we'd probably rank highest in recognition for the Murrah bombing, and then people who'd never been here would probably run out of adjectives. They don't know much about us. We're some small, maybe midwestern city without any distinguishing features. I've got a friend in commercial real estate, and this is obviously just anecdotal, but he told me that when the Hornets came here, and we started getting some national buzz, which was almost exclusively on ESPN and in major newspapers, the interest around the country in commercial real estate in OKC was off the charts compared to immediately prior to that time. This is something he told me without being prompted, and it was over a year ago. I'm not manufacturing a comment for this current argument. Obviously you don't have to believe me, but I'm not in the habit of inventing information. Quite frankly, Oklahoma City needs something to change the national perception of us, and in a country of sports fans, having an NBA team would give us a positive association to add to our national image.

Zimbalist had to admit, also, that there was something unique about Western cities that were located three or more hours away from other cities with professional teams. People outside that city actually came to events, and so there was positive cash influx that you could directly relate to having a sports team in that city. I know that at least the first year, 20% of the Hornets' season tickets were sold to people in Tulsa, and even some to people in Wichita and Kansas City, believe it or not. That doesn't count people from Stillwater, Enid, Lawton, etc who came to games, and I know there were those as well. Again, in a state without a lot of entertainment options, we'll drive to entertain ourselves. I used to go to a couple of Mavericks games in Dallas every winter, and I know that's unusual, but I also know I'm not the only one who's done that. My money stayed in Oklahoma City the two years the Hornets were here, instead of being spent in Dallas.

And, as Easy says above, "We are getting an NBA team for super cheap w/o paying anything extra...Ford even w/ the upgrades would be one of the cheapest arenas in the league." To that I say, "Why wouldn't we take advantage of this unique opportunity which is offered only to the few? Why wouldn't we want an NBA team?" And, as Kerry says, "All of the economist tell us pro-sports teams don't have any economic value but for some reason every time a team moves the host city files a lawsuit to keep them. Go figure."

That's because even cities like Seattle recognize a team has value. It always boils down to whether you want to pay for it or not. The problem is, if you don't pay, you don't play, as Seattle is learning. I don't know why anyone would think the rules are different for us, or we're somehow special and the rules don't apply to us.

[Karried]

betts, you always say exactly what I'm thinking.. only much better!

Great points and exactly what I've been thinking about for months.

I've said it before, civic pride is something that people are not associating with this move, but I've seen it and felt it when we had such positive and rave reviews for our city while hosting the Hornets.

I'm ready to have the nation finally recognize that OKC is a great city... and what better way to get recognition than to have our very own professional NBA team?

*Last week my husband was wearing a Dallas Cowboys sweatshirt and a friend from CA said, 'why are you wearing Dallas - oh wait, OK doesn't have any pro teams does it?' hahahahaha - ugh

Vote Yes!

[andy157]

After being away this past week, for one reason, or another, I decided to catch-up on how this topic was going. As I anticipated, not a lot has changed. Generally speaking, the same proponents of this issue are still respectivly, and for many legitimate reasons, touting the YES vote. While the few minority opponents to this issue maintain their positions, and continue to give ligitimate reasons for voting NO.

Some opponents, myself included, believe that at least a few of our reasons for voting NO are legitimate. Not all, but some. It's also been quite evident, that to get any of those on the Yes side to agree that any of us on the NO side has a legitimate reason to vote NO, period. Has been difficult at best. But who doesn't like a good challenge?

For the most part during this debate both sides have maintained a civil decorum and been able to stay on the high road. Sure, it's true some here have stepped down into the gutter from time to time with our remarks, and our comments. Again, I include myself. But Theo you have taken your dislike, and your lack of respect for those of us who differ from your opinion on this upcoming vote to a new low.

You refer to us as common, unintelligent, stupid, moronic retarded Islamic baboons. It's not so much the name calling that troubles me. No, it's your uncommon, unintelligent, stupid, moronic retarded baboon assed attitude.

[betts]

I think there's a very defensible reason to vote no. It is: "I don't want to pay that penny tax anymore." That's very tricky to rebut, so I'd suggest people who want to vote no and don't want to meet with any objections stick with that one.

I only object to gross exaggerations of how much the tax will cost individuals on the average, insistence that the team owners are going to make buckets of money without any data to back up that assertion, and people insisting we're getting an NBA team even if we don't pass the tax proposal who don't admit that it is their opinion as an individual, and they have no statements from anyone reputable to back it up.

I doubt anyone is going to change anyone's mind here, unless someone is reading who doesn't have any real information on the subject. And then, they've clearly been shown both sides of the issue.

Oh, and I agree that either side completely dimishes the quality of their argument with any name callling.

[jbrown84]

121 Million divided by 550,000 residents is the equivalent of $200+ on every man woman and child. Not all but most of the $200 will be on the citizens of OKC.

How you think that nobody outside the city buys things inside the city, I have no idea. Ever heard of Penn Square Mall? Quail Springs Mall? Crossroads Mall?

Do you think it is misleading that Cornett says - a yes vote won't raise taxes?

No. Penny sales tax. Period. Exactly the same as we've had for over 10 years.

[flintysooner]

Besides if you don't want to support the tax just come down to Moore and buy stuff or Norman or The Village or Warr Acres or Edmond.

[foiaokc08]

The publicity campaign is getting its a-- kicked.

I'm enjoying watching it.

This vote will NOT pass.

[Karried]

I hear Seattle is beautiful.

[betts]

The publicity campaign is getting its a-- kicked.

I'm enjoying watching it.

This vote will NOT pass.

If not, we don't deserve a team and are not ready for one. That's what David Stern thought five years ago, and I'll have to sadly agree with him if it happens.

[bornhere]

There's no such thing as "deserving" the NBA, any more than a city "deserves" Taco Mayo or O'Reilly's Auto Parts.

The NBA is just a business that provides television programming. There's nothing magic or special about that. The reason they flog this 'elite status' stuff is because there's really no 'there' there. If people looked at pro sports the way they look at every other spending decision in their lives, there probaby wouldn't be any pro sports beyond tennis and golf and the PBA.

[windowphobe]

If people looked at pro sports the way they look at every other spending decision in their lives, there probaby wouldn't be any pro sports beyond tennis and golf and the PBA.

I assume you got this statistic from the Bureau of Keister Extraction, because it doesn't make a lick of sense, and what's more, when did you become the arbiter of how people look at spending decisions? You been hiding in Ben Bernanke's linen closet or something?

Projection. Look it up.

[bornhere]

Well, it's not a statistic at all, as I suspect you realize.

I became the arbiter of how people look at spending decisions when they decided I needed to pay 15 months worth of sales tax so they wouldn't have to undergo the humiliation of being seen in out-of-town team jerseys.

[betts]

Well, it's not a statistic at all, as I suspect you realize.

I became the arbiter of how people look at spending decisions when they decided I needed to pay 15 months worth of sales tax so they wouldn't have to undergo the humiliation of being seen in out-of-town team jerseys.

As I've said, it's not so much fun paying your kids' tuition either. Let's make a deal. You pay a few cents a day for 15 months, and I'll help send your kids to school for 12 years. I think you're getting the better part of the bargain.

[bornhere]

No deal. I don't have kids and I pay property taxes like everyone else. And I don't mind supporting schools, because I think an educated populace contributes to the well-being of society as a whole.

I'm flabbergasted that I am continually seeing attempts to draw parallels between supporting schooling for our children and an NBA team, as if the two were of equal value.

[betts]

You missed the point completely, bornhere. Of COURSE they're not equivalent. I was being rhetorical, just as your prior statement was.

The point is that there are all sorts of things within our community that are not used by 100% of the populace, and yet they're supported by the taxes of 100% of the populace. Besides schools, which are obviously incredibly worthy of support, and which I also have supported without complaint (except this week, to prove a point), you do have streets and public services, which I have also obviously never complained about supporting, and which it's hard to argue about.

But then you get into all sorts of other things. Parks, the Civic Center, the Zoo, Museums, the Redhawks Stadium, the Botanical Tube, even public libraries, which are as much a place to be social and use the computer nowadays as they are places to read. As individual items, there are a lot of people in the city who never use them. As a whole, most people in the city have used or enjoyed at least one of them. We all support all of them with our taxes. Yes, you could remove one of them, and the city would not be much different. But remove them all, and you have a city which has nothing to offer.

Is leisure time valuable to us as a society? I would argue yes. Are we only defined by our jobs? Can there be an auto mechanic who also enjoys the ballet, and a college professor who likes basketball? Is one necessarily better than the other? I would argue no. I think leisure time activities are what most people work for, save money for. So, should I tell the auto mechanic that because I don't like the ballet and don't necessarily see it's cultural value that I think supporting the Civic Center is not our city's responsibility?

I see all leisure time amenities in our city as important, and I don't place value judgements on them. If the city asked me to support a NASCAR track, a "sport" that completely disinterests me, I would agree, because I know there are people in my community who love NASCAR. I feel the same way about the zoo, the Civic Center, etc. So, even if I hated basketball, I would think it's important for the city to support bringing a team here, because it's a source of leisure time enjoyment for many people. The fact that I also think it's good for a city like ours plays into it as well, as does the fact that I'd like to see the Ford Center updated and improved whether we get a team or not.

I don't believe, and I realize this is my opinion, that it's our place to pick and choose what is valuable to others. If we want to be a growing, vibrant city, with many leisure time acitivities for a diverse population, then, I think we can pass a 15 month tax that costs most of us a few pennies a day. If it were ten years, I might feel differently. Fifteen months. I'll never miss that money. I throw more change in my change jar every day than that tax is going to cost me.

[Karried]

betts, I think about 19 Thousand + other people who were able to get tickets to the Hornets games, agree with you... myself included.

For all of us, the NBA holds a lot of value.

After moving from CA, I was at a loss for things to do that the entire family could look forward to and enjoy together.

Like others have said, we don't have a lot of what other cities offer in terms of activities.

So for OKC to offer something as amazing, fun and enjoyable as the Hornets games (and for all ages) on a consistent basis was a godsend for our family.

When the Hornet's left, a void was left and for a penny sales tax, I'm more than willing to try to fill that void with another team.

I only hope that the NO voters don't ruin it for the entire community and state.

[Karried]

Not only does the NBA provide entertainment value, there are hundreds of examples of community service provided to locals by the team's players and owners.

Hornets Point Guard Chris Paul and His Foundation Feed 1000 Families

--Chris sponsored a Habitat for Humanity event in Winston-Salem, NC in June and will host another Habitat Fundraiser there over a weekend in September

Chris has held a basketball camp in Oklahoma City and just completed one in Winston-Salem.

“I was really curious whether they were going to have the camp because I knew the (Hornets) were going back to New Orleans. I think it means a lot that (Paul) stayed here and did this for the kids. And he's present at the camp. That was one of my concerns, would he actually be involved? And he is.”

Community News



Hornets Believe in the Season of Giving

Hoops for Homes Reaches Out to Teachers

Hornets Turkey Giveaway

Best Western International Drives Literacy in Gulf Coast Region With Hornets' Bookmobile

Hornets Lend a Hand on the Gulf Coast

Hilton Armstrong Makes 10,000 Donation



Hornets Debut Bookmobile In Oklahoma City


I could go on and on and I'm sure others can give examples of the value of a team that embraces the community.

[flintysooner]

We spent $52.4 million on the Civic Center. But I, along with thousands of others, got to see Yo-Yo Ma!! I doubt very seriously I would have had that opportunity without MAPS. I am grateful for that one performance alone.

I am quite certain not everyone appreciated the Civic Center improvements either nor cared anything about Yo-Yo Ma.

Not long ago several friends went to see the Ten Tenors. We had supper at an Oklahoma City restaurant where the tab was nearly $200. We filled up at an Oklahoma City gas station. We parked at a lot in Oklahoma City. We all decided we'd be back for other performances.

Just the other day my son and a group of other men took all their children to the Ford Center. I can't even estimate what they spent.

But economics aside it is the opportunity to experience such things that is beyond measure.

I am urging everyone I know that can to get out and vote for the Ford Center improvements.

[Watson410]

Alright everybody! My b-day is exactly one week away from today (March 4). I would really REALLY like to have a great b-day, nothing would be better than a YES vote from EVERYBODY... and i know you guys want me to have a good b-day right?!? Thanx in advance! Haha, Seriously though... Vote YES on March 4th.

[SouthsideSooner]

That's funny Watson, It's my sisters birthday as well.

Is anyone planning a watch party for next Tuesday night?