Chesapeake empire marches on

[gopokes88]

100% Gates and Allen needed a place with talent and they would have only moved to places that had it ..

Dell on the other had when they started and grew as a personal computer company didn't need much skilled talent at all .. ..

I mean they started in ABQ then went back to Washington, because culturally New Mexico isn't an educated state.

[BimmerSooner]

Great memories on that campus and in those buildings. I had offices in 13, 14, 15 and 5 during my time there. Still hard to believe how precipitously the company has shrunk and how vacant that once buzzing campus now is. Almost seems like a dream.

[CaptDave]

What is it about so many in this state that it devalues the importance of education? It is almost like a badge of honor to many. Are they are in denial, ignorant as to its importance, or is it a class/culture warfare thing?

The answer is 'yes' to all. Sadly it isn't just Oklahoma, that attitude has nearly gone national for reasons that if I state them would result in me ending up in the OKCTalk penalty box.

[ditm4567]

My daughter for personal/family reasons did a semester of school at the University of Tulsa while she was in college. I forget what the topic of class was, but she had a visiting professor who had worked at a big time think tank in DC. He was a complete arrogant ass and talked down to the class telling them that no one attending a school like TU could get a job like his at the think tank. Or any school in Oklahoma. He was mocking the whole state basically. Beyond being really rude, it's also kinda sadly true. And why brain drain happens. We certainly need to do better with education at all levels.

Anything that a DC think tank / higher education professor says isn't worth the toilet paper they wiped their @$$ with that morning. I couldn't think of a more-removed-from-society person than the one you described...

[bison34]

I saw where the brain drain has slowed significantly. It's a start. Nowhere near perfect, at all. But you know what they say about how to eat an elephant.

https://oklahoma.gov/ltgovpinnell/ne...%20the%20state.

https://www.kansascityfed.org/oklaho...20Star%20state.

[Pete]

The only people who devalue education are either uneducated or undereducated themselves (and thus threatened and insecure) or people who are taking advantage of them for their own agendas.

Education is the single best investment you can make in yourself and a community/state. Anyone arguing against this is doing so against even the most basic common sense.

And yet here we sit in Oklahoma, near the bottom of the barrel decade after decade, and the only momentum is downward.


Even though the solution is completely obvious, I have no reason to believe I will live to see any real change. So, OKC does what it can by taxing ourselves over and over but we are always, always going to be limited by the very real perception we are a backward, uneducated state. Harsh, but true.

[bison34]

The only people who devalue education are either uneducated or undereducated themselves (and thus threatened and insecure) or people who are taking advantage of them for their own agendas.

Education is the single best investment you can make in yourself and a community/state. Anyone arguing against this is doing so against even the most basic common sense.

And yet here we sit in Oklahoma, near the bottom of the barrel decade after decade, and the only momentum is downward.


Even though the solution is completely obvious, I have no reason to believe I will live to see any real change. So, OKC does what it can by taxing ourselves over and over but we are always, always going to be limited by the very real perception we are a backward, uneducated state. Harsh, but true.

I agree with you, and have never intended to argue otherwise. It will never be an easy fix, either. There are obvious solutions, but getting to those will take a tangential change at 23rd and Lincoln.

[ComeOnBenjals!]

Pete and others are spot on -- it's a culture thing. I was born and raised one state north, and I noticed a significant difference when I moved here. I find that most Oklahomans see institutions (higher ed, etc.) as something to rebel against. It's a culture of proud ignorance that absolutely hurts the state.

Culture can be created though. Just takes innovative and brave leadership to change. OU and OSU have the foundations, but I doubt the leadership will ever happen. I have a small child, and I'm very torn on if Oklahoma is the right place for him to grow up in. There are positives no doubt, but some significant challenges.

[runOKC]

I have a small child, and I'm very torn on if Oklahoma is the right place for him to grow up in. There are positives no doubt, but some significant challenges.

I have young kids and think about this often. My wife and I are both born and raised Oklahomans but we are also both big proponents of education. It’s really hard to see us moving but sometimes I want to just pack up and head to a state with top 10 education so I feel like my kids can get a good head start in life. It can happen here, as there are excellent educators for sure, but I always worry about the direction we’re heading.

[dankrutka]

It’s worth noting that the person who maybe did the most to raise OU’s academic profile just died in David Boren. He identified several strategies to do so such as recruit merit scholars, build an honors college and dorms around majors, campus beautification. I know he wasn’t perfect, but he at least tried to make OU more prestigious.

[bison34]

Pete and others are spot on -- it's a culture thing. I was born and raised one state north, and I noticed a significant difference when I moved here. I find that most Oklahomans see institutions (higher ed, etc.) as something to rebel against. It's a culture of proud ignorance that absolutely hurts the state.

Culture can be created though. Just takes innovative and brave leadership to change. OU and OSU have the foundations, but I doubt the leadership will ever happen. I have a small child, and I'm very torn on if Oklahoma is the right place for him to grow up in. There are positives no doubt, but some significant challenges.

As someone who has experience dealing with the Regents, they are working hard to reverse negative trends. Higher education enrollment has increased each of the years I have worked with them. They have numerous projects in place to help at risk youth work towards and afford a college education.

It will take a while to get to a top level, of course. But all of the 4 year universities are working hard to increase opportunities. The problem is at the secondary education level, where children just aren't at the levels they need to be. The cities are usually fine, but the rural areas are where the metrics are not great.

[Pete]

^

You have to understand that EVERY school and EVERY state is working hard to improve their standing.

OU and OSU are improving very incrementally and not keeping pace with the better schools and thus are falling further and further down the rankings.

Universities exist in a fantastically competitive market where information flows freely. You can argue the merits of various ranking systems but there is a direct correlation between that and the quality of students you attract, which is the most important thing of all.

In context, things are getting worse not better.

[Rover]

As someone who has experience dealing with the Regents, they are working hard to reverse negative trends. Higher education enrollment has increased each of the years I have worked with them. They have numerous projects in place to help at risk youth work towards and afford a college education.

It will take a while to get to a top level, of course. But all of the 4 year universities are working hard to increase opportunities. The problem is at the secondary education level, where children just aren't at the levels they need to be. The cities are usually fine, but the rural areas are where the metrics are not great.

2025 U.S. News & World Report Rankings:

Rice University: Tied at #18
University of Texas at Austin (UT Austin): Tied at #30
Texas A&M University (TAMU): Tied at #33
Southern Methodist University (SMU): Tied at #72
Baylor University: Tied at #75
Texas Christian University (TCU): Tied at #80
University of Oklahoma (OU): Tied at #127
University of Tulsa: Tied at #137
Oklahoma State University (OSU): Tied at #182

Not only are they considered better academic schools in Texas, but they graduate WAY MORE students. OU is the best in OK and it is known for being a pretty good school in several things and relatively inexpensive to attend. In the Texas schools they have world class studies in multiple fields, especially in engineering, IT, math, business and for being harder to get into.

My point isn't to bash OU or the other OKla schools, but to say that the Texas schools attract and graduate many more top level minds and they retain them. We aren't home growing enough to compete well in an ever increasingly difficult world. And our citizens seem to think it is because the Bible isn't taught in the schools, or that there are racy books in the library, or because men are changing sex to compete in girl's races.

Ignorance begets ignorance.

[bamarsha]

The problem is bigger than just the educational system, it's the direction the country has been going. It's why private schools are doing so well, as public education has gone way downhill across the board.

I remember when I went to school, the teachers forced you to learn and if you didn't, your parents would. Now, it's illegal for the teachers to force you to learn and the parents just don't care if their kids learn or not, as long as the kids get their way. That's not just an Oklahoma problem. Then you have this stupid "common core" crap. Just teach the way that has worked for hundreds of years and don't dumb it down.

[OkieBerto]

The problem is bigger than just the educational system, it's the direction the country has been going. It's why private schools are doing so well, as public education has gone way downhill across the board.

I remember when I went to school, the teachers forced you to learn and if you didn't, your parents would. Now, it's illegal for the teachers to force you to learn and the parents just don't care if their kids learn or not, as long as the kids get their way. That's not just an Oklahoma problem. Then you have this stupid "common core" crap. Just teach the way that has worked for hundreds of years and don't dumb it down.

"Force you to Learn" As someone who is related to multiple teachers and administrators in this State it has nothing to do with forcing someone to learn. How I learn is completely different than the way my siblings learned. My Sister is only a few years older than me and we went through the same school system. I never finished college and she has a masters degree and was at the top of her class at all levels of education.

A kid in school today has so much more information going through their brains than I did in the 80's and 90's. You can not teach kids today the way they taught us back then. Such an ignorant statement!

[bison34]

2025 U.S. News & World Report Rankings:

Rice University: Tied at #18
University of Texas at Austin (UT Austin): Tied at #30
Texas A&M University (TAMU): Tied at #33
Southern Methodist University (SMU): Tied at #72
Baylor University: Tied at #75
Texas Christian University (TCU): Tied at #80
University of Oklahoma (OU): Tied at #127
University of Tulsa: Tied at #137
Oklahoma State University (OSU): Tied at #182

Not only are they considered better academic schools in Texas, but they graduate WAY MORE students. OU is the best in OK and it is known for being a pretty good school in several things and relatively inexpensive to attend. In the Texas schools they have world class studies in multiple fields, especially in engineering, IT, math, business and for being harder to get into.

My point isn't to bash OU or the other OKla schools, but to say that the Texas schools attract and graduate many more top level minds and they retain them. We aren't home growing enough to compete well in an ever increasingly difficult world. And our citizens seem to think it is because the Bible isn't taught in the schools, or that there are racy books in the library, or because men are changing sex to compete in girl's races.

Ignorance begets ignorance.

I wish Oklahoma had those public schools, sure. But it is impossible to compare those private schools to anything Oklahoma has.

I am not demeaning this listing, at all. The colleges in Oklahoma have to improve, greatly. That is not arguable. I am just saying that private schools are different. They are, by virtue of their name, not public, so it is hard to compare them to public schools. You could put Stanford on that list, if you wanted to.

Again, I am not belittling you or your post, as it shows OU and OSU are not at the level they need to be, compared to UT and TAMU.

And to be fair, your last few sentences are also majorly being discussed in Texas, as well. They just have more money to plug their issues with than Oklahoma does.

It is a culture issue, for sure.

[bamarsha]

"Force you to Learn" As someone who is related to multiple teachers and administrators in this State it has nothing to do with forcing someone to learn. How I learn is completely different than the way my siblings learned. My Sister is only a few years older than me and we went through the same school system. I never finished college and she has a masters degree and was at the top of her class at all levels of education.

A kid in school today has so much more information going through their brains than I did in the 80's and 90's. You can not teach kids today the way they taught us back then. Such an ignorant statement!

Your statement is just another example of the lack of self-responsibility I was talking about. Kids these days simply do not have any self-responsibility because they were never taught any. Parents at home are too busy and teachers aren't allow to (can't hurt these poor kids' feelings these days). Teacher may try, but may get fired if they even think about discipline or correcting the kid (other than a mere suggestion).

[Rover]

The problem is bigger than just the educational system, it's the direction the country has been going. It's why private schools are doing so well, as public education has gone way downhill across the board.

I remember when I went to school, the teachers forced you to learn and if you didn't, your parents would. Now, it's illegal for the teachers to force you to learn and the parents just don't care if their kids learn or not, as long as the kids get their way. That's not just an Oklahoma problem. Then you have this stupid "common core" crap. Just teach the way that has worked for hundreds of years and don't dumb it down.

I think it would shock most people at how much of the political stereotype falls away if they actually visited the classrooms to see what is going on. Teachers could NEVER "force" a student to learn. But if students think their society doesn't value education, they won't either. If their parents excuse and condone poor or no educational achievement, the students won't even try. If bad behavior of a student towards their teacher is ignored by the parent, bad behavior grows. If the parents don't bother to take the time to become part of the educational process except to fight imagined cultural wars, the students won't invest their time either. If the parent has low expectations it will be realized in their child.

[Pete]

I am just saying that private schools are different. They are, by their name, not public, so it is hard to compare them to public schools. You could put Stanford on that list, if you wanted to.

Oklahoma has plenty of private schools (Tulsa, OCU, OCC, OBU, SNU, and a bunch of others) and none are remotely competitive.

It's a STATE problem, not a public/private issue. We don't have ANY well-regarded universities, at all.


We can all sit here and hope some big company moves to OKC or buys the old Chesapeake campus and creates tons of highly-paid jobs because it happens in other cities, right?? 100% unrealistic and education is absolutely the reason why.

We aren't even in the discussion for these things, as Musk's dismissive email about Oklahoma proved after the fact. And of course we aren't. When has that even been a realistic possibility?? In the entire history of the state, it's never turned out that we were really close on something great. It's not that we are losing contests, we're never in the ballgame to begin with. Worse yet, there is nothing on the horizon that is going to change that. And I'm not counting factory jobs, even though we don't attract many of those either. I'm talking about well-paid white collar positions that people are constantly posting about going elsewhere.


It's not the end of the world. OKC will continue to try and work around these massive limitations and have small wins. But that's all it will ever be.

[OkieBerto]

Your statement is just another example of the lack of self-responsibility I was talking about. Kids these days simply do not have any self-responsibility because they were never taught any. Parents at home are too busy and teachers aren't allow to (can't hurt these poor kids' feelings these days). Teacher may try, but may get fired if they even think about discipline or correcting the kid (other than a mere suggestion).

So you are saying these children who were raised by older generations, have no self responsibility? Then who is to blame, the Parents or the Students? Not all kids can learn at the same level and speed. Your statements clearly shows that one can earn an education, but that education doesn't necessarily mean one learned anything from it.

[Jake]

Losing Panasonic to Kansas should have been a wake up call (as well as the state repeatedly falling flat on its face regarding any large employer locating here) but of course it wasn’t. OKC’s humiliation after losing the United plant to Indianapolis helped spur major changes that allowed the city to transform.

This needs to be done at a state level. Businesses would rather locate to Kansas than Oklahoma for a better standard of living and quality of life. And that’s a battery plant. Not even getting into HQs where as Pete mentioned Oklahoma isn’t even on their radar. The state and powers that be should be embarrassed. Are they? Of course not.

Until then get excited about more warehouses being built.

[Pete]

Losing Panasonic to Kansas should have been a wake up call (as well as the state repeatedly falling flat on its face regarding any large employer locating here) but of course it wasn’t.

Just look at the news coming out of Oklahoma since then.

Does anybody think we learned and are now have at least started down a better path? The exact opposite is true.


And what happened with Canoo -- which is arguably the only 'win' we've had in a very long time -- was completely embarrassing and only made the entire state look like a bunch of rubes (which in that situation is a pretty accurate description).

And the legislative response? Let's introduce a bill banning public incentives for EV companies. Absolutely brilliant.

[Jake]

Just look at the news coming out of Oklahoma since then.

Does anybody think we learned and are now have at least started down a better path? The exact opposite is true.


And what happened with Canoo -- which is arguably the only 'win' we've had in a very long time -- was completely embarrassing and only made the entire state look like a bunch of rubes (which in that situation is a pretty accurate description).

And the legislative response? Let's introduce a bill banning public incentives for EV companies. Absolutely brilliant.

It’s admirable what OKC (and Tulsa to an extent) has been able to do considering the state government has done basically everything in its power to make things difficult for the city. Without OKC the state would be a flat, more barren West Virginia. Or a land-locked American Samoa maybe.


I wonder what the population of the state and OKC would be if state leadership wasn’t horrible my entire life.

[Pete]

I wonder what the population of the state and OKC would be if state leadership wasn’t horrible my entire life.

I've broken this down elsewhere but without OKC, the state of Oklahoma would be near stagnant in population growth and certainly in terms of progress in general.

[Mesta Parker]

I mean they started in ABQ then went back to Washington, because culturally New Mexico isn't an educated state.

That wasn't the reason.

Just finished Gate's new book "Source Code". It is a great read. Micro-Soft located in ABQ because their first customer (MITS) was located there. MITS was acquired by a larger company who tried to violate the MITS exclusive license agreement with Micro-Soft. Micro-Soft won in arbitration and was free to do business with anyone. Micro-Soft then left ABQ because Gates and Allen were homesick, not because NM was an uneducated state.