OAK (formerly Penn Central)

[Pete]

It goes to the same small group of developers because there are few developers in the city either qualified or brave enough to take on extremely complex projects of scale in the parts of town where the City wants to focus redevelopment efforts. Where are the other developers who are willing to take on projects in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in the City's areas of incentive? They don't exist.

There have been many developers who have built things in the core that didn't get TIF.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner needs to step into the shoes of developers to gain a more realistic perspective on real estate development. Unlike SimCity, it's a highly risky and complex business.

It's not so risky when you take from a school district which primarily serves disadvantaged children to pad your bottom line.

[Midtowner]

It goes to the same small group of developers because there are few developers in the city either qualified or brave enough to take on extremely complex projects of scale in the parts of town where the City wants to focus redevelopment efforts. Where are the other developers who are willing to take on projects in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in the City's areas of incentive? They don't exist.

Oh please.

So if I take on a plaintiff's case and it is extremely challenging and complex and I end up getting a defense verdict, I ought to be able to expect the public to bail me out at the expense of public schools?

Why are developers so special in this regard? Why do they get to be unique in that their business model is backed up by the taxpayers? Are developers the only kinds of businesses that take risks?

[Urbanized]

It’s not about specific developers or whether they are somehow special or deserving. You have this incredibly twisted. It’s about what is a strategic need for the community, and what pushes the city forward and builds the overall tax base in the bargain.

Oklahoma City had multiple generations of disinvestment in its core and in areas like the Eastside, which has the added burden of institutional redlining for decades.

Try to get a conventional bank loan for commercial real estate in NE OKC. Try to build residential in the core. Try to develop much-needed and much-desired retail or mixed use in the core. Try to renovate a historic structure with environmental issues. But…only do so if your renovation can meet stringent design guidelines that don’t exist AT ALL in the suburbs. Try workforce housing. These things are virtually impossible without significant assistance.

Oklahoma City has spent the past 30 years trying to overcome the radical disinvestment that happened here for more than half a century preceding MAPS, and despite the progress we’ve made this city still has a long, long way to go to catch up. TIF is simply one of the most effective tools to assist in this effort. Your mind and the minds of some others on this site have simply become poisoned to this concept in part because undue and extreme negativity towards TIF here goes largely unchallenged.

[Pete]

^

Except the huge percentage of all private development has been done without any TIF whatsoever.

Everyone realizes something like First National or the Skirvin needs help.

[Pete]

I took this yesterday of Mesero; they still have a long way to go.

I bet they are pushing for spring.

[bison34]

I took this yesterday of Mesero; they still have a long way to go.

I bet they are pushing for spring.

There seem to be a lot of stores/restaurants announced for this that have done very little towards opening, or even being ready to open. Any word on them? Is there something in the water, or just timing issues?

[Pete]

There seem to be a lot of stores/restaurants announced for this that have done very little towards opening, or even being ready to open. Any word on them? Is there something in the water, or just timing issues?

Under construction: Mesero, Restoration Hardware, Oil Tree, Shake Shack (presumed), and Blue Mercury.

The only one that hasn't started is Alo.

[bison34]

Under construction: Mesero, Restoration Hardware, Oil Tree, Shake Shack (presumed), and Blue Mercury.

The only one that hasn't started is Alo.

Ok. I had just heard that a couple were either paused or delayed, so i wasn't sure.

Thank you, Pete!

[Pete]

1. Shake Shack progress
2. Rink being dismantled
3. RH Gallery windows going in
4. Mesero

[sooner88]

Will Mesero have a patio? For some reason I was thinking the second floor was somewhat open air.

[Pete]

Will Mesero have a patio? For some reason I was thinking the second floor was somewhat open air.

There will be a patio facing the park and along the north side as well. Also, a bar that opens up to the outside.

Looks like the 2nd level is completely enclosed.

[mgharfeh]

So is it sure that’s shake shack now?

[Pete]

So is it sure that’s shake shack now?

It hasn't been officially announced, but it's presumed at this point.

[Pete]

Sign about to go up on Mesero. From the looks of things, they are moving fast now that the space is completely enclosed.

[Justthis]

I guess Alo is not coming. Was there yesterday and everything that said Alo was covered over. A worker with an Oak badge said they were told in their morning huddle that the cancelled their lease.

[Pete]

I guess Alo is not coming. Was there yesterday and everything that said Alo was covered over. A worker with an Oak badge said they were told in their morning huddle that the cancelled their lease.

My understanding is that Simon (Penn Square owner) found out about the Alo deal and killed it.

Basically used their leverage as landlord of many Alo locations. Not sure if Alo will be going to Penn Square instead.

Simon had to have been furious when OAK took Pottery Barn.

[OKCTalker]

My understanding is that Simon (Penn Square owner) found out about the Alo deal and killed it.

Basically used their leverage as landlord of many Alo locations. Not sure if Alo will be going to Penn Square instead.

Simon had to have been furious when OAK took Pottery Barn.

Although it wasn’t a direct, sequential move like Pottery Barn, don’t forget that Williams-Sonoma went from Penn Square to the OAK.

[Pete]

Yes, there is now a big rivalry between the two properties.

It's a big part of why OAK has been so quiet recently -- they don't want to provide advance information.

[bison34]

I hope Simon isn't able to dictate OAK tenants without bringing them to PSM. That only hurts OKC.

[Rover]

My understanding is that Simon (Penn Square owner) found out about the Alo deal and killed it.

Basically used their leverage as landlord of many Alo locations. Not sure if Alo will be going to Penn Square instead.

Simon had to have been furious when OAK took Pottery Barn.

Pete, couldn't that be construed to fall under "Restraint of Trade" in legal terms?

[Pete]

Pete, couldn't that be construed to fall under "Restraint of Trade" in legal terms?

I'm sure it was a mutual agreement and perhaps PSM gave them great incentives to go to the mall instead.

The main point is that Simon has a much bigger and longer relationship with Alo and that certainly played into this.


OAK poached Pottery Barn, so there is clear competition between the two properties, not necessarily anything nefarious.

[Urbanized]

The emergence of Oak in that location is one of the best things that could have happened to PSM, for what that’s worth.

[Pete]

[BoulderSooner]

pete do you know off hand what the SQFT is of this expanded building ??