Penn Square Mall

[Bunty]

I've lived in many parts of the country and seen many malls and I used to love to go to the mall, sit in common areas and relax, hang out. I have absolutely no desire to do that in PSM. Not relaxing, not an enjoyable experience. As soon as I get in I want to get what I came for and leave. Perhaps the common walking areas between stores isn't as grand as other malls I've been and if feels tight, don't know.

I think PSM used to have a fountain until they took it out with nothing there now. I don't think that helped anything.

[rte66man]

thank you that portion was just "highway grade" for lack of a better term .. going east ?

IIRC, there was an underpass at Western, then at-grade east from there where 44 is today.

[OKCTalker]

I remember my Dad and Uncles telling stories about walking to the Belle Isle Lake from their house. It is crazy to me that we drained that. How many lakes were drained for commercial real estate in OKC back then. Shephard Mall was a lake right?

Yes, regarding Shepherd Mall, a portion of the original 160-acre, 1889 homestead of George Shepherd was a lake. The homestead was sold off in various parcels over time, with the last parcel - on which the family’s original home stood - sold after his last daughter’s death around 1970 (current location of KFC). The home was moved around, but now is located on the Harn Homestead property just south of the State Capitol.

[Plutonic Panda]

IIRC, there was an underpass at Western, then at-grade east from there where 44 is today.

Wasn’t the entire loop around OKC converted to a freeway which was considered the grand Parkway?

[Bowser214]

A strategic alliance: The merger combines JCPenney's iconic department store presence with Sparc Group's portfolio of brands, including Forever 21, Brooks Brothers, and Eddie Bauer. Simon Property Group and Brookfield, who co-own JCPenney post-bankruptcy, are major stakeholders in both entities, enabling a streamlined approach to retail operations.

https://www.credaily.com/newsletters...-retail-brand/

[Mesta Parker]

Wasn’t the entire loop around OKC converted to a freeway which was considered the grand Parkway?

Grand Blvd was built as a loop around the city in the 1930’s but was never a freeway. A small portion of the loop parallels current freeway alignment.

https://i0.wp.com/www.rideok.com/wp-...pg?w=646&ssl=1

[bombermwc]

Grand Blvd was built as a loop around the city in the 1930’s but was never a freeway. A small portion of the loop parallels current freeway alignment.

https://i0.wp.com/www.rideok.com/wp-...pg?w=646&ssl=1

wasn't is part of the old trolley path too? I was not around back then, so i have no idea. But i remember someone saying something to that effect before.

[Urbanized]

wasn't is part of the old trolley path too? I was not around back then, so i have no idea. But i remember someone saying something to that effect before.

Not really, although an interurban line did go along NW 39th, of which a portion was aligned with the Grand Avenue loop. Here is a map of the historic streetcar alignments:

[Urbanized]

The Grand Boulevard loop was definitely replaced in many areas by interstate on the same right-of-way, most notably significant parts of I-44. But it still exists in multiple locations, including near Capitol Hill, Trosper and also the zoo, but most notably Nichols Hills, where a stretch of it exists much as it was originally envisioned; as a true garden parkway.

[OkieBerto]

Yes, regarding Shepherd Mall, a portion of the original 160-acre, 1889 homestead of George Shepherd was a lake. The homestead was sold off in various parcels over time, with the last parcel - on which the family’s original home stood - sold after his last daughter’s death around 1970 (current location of KFC). The home was moved around, but now is located on the Harn Homestead property just south of the State Capitol.

About a decade ago I was working at a real estate agency and they were selling a home just off of Villa to the West in the Cleveland Neighborhood. They said it had a flat roof patio so that it could have a lake view. I had no idea the Harn Homestead home was moved from this location. Thanks for the info!

[OkieBerto]

Not really, although an interurban line did go along NW 39th, of which a portion was aligned with the Grand Avenue loop. Here is a map of the historic streetcar alignments:

My favorite part about learning more about this streetcar alignment is the spots in the city where the tracks still show up. On Youngs Blvd there are many spots like this one!

[Pete]

It's always a little sickening to see these old maps because we threw away all this amazing infrastructure and are now spending billions to recreate a tiny fraction of it.

Similarly, lots of cities are tearing out interstate highways in their cores and trying to reestablish what had been great urban fabric.

And we are still in the process of trying to remove "modern" facades that cover up beautiful architecture.


Of course, European countries pretty much avoided all these mistakes in the first place. It's like the U.S. went completely brain-dead for about half a century.

[zefferoni]

My favorite part about learning more about this streetcar alignment is the spots in the city where the tracks still show up. On Youngs Blvd there are many spots like this one!

I've always assumed that Linwood Blvd was named as such because it was the streetcar track to the Linwood neighborhood (around where the line crosses I-44 on the west side of that map). You can definitely tell it ran along NW 12th St to Drexel to NW 19th St. At Wayman's Park there's a 'turn lane' that was definitely just the track paved over.

[OkieBerto]

I've always assumed that Linwood Blvd was named as such because it was the streetcar track to the Linwood neighborhood (around where the line crosses I-44 on the west side of that map). You can definitely tell it ran along NW 12th St to Drexel to NW 19th St. At Wayman's Park there's a 'turn lane' that was definitely just the track paved over.

Yes, Linwood Place was at the end of the line and they called the homes there, "Country Estates". I lived there for about 5 years a decade ago and it was clear some very prominent Oklahoma City residents built homes there. Like the home that Chris Schwab of Schwab Meat Company built and lived in back then. I have close friends who bought it and moved their family into it. They have been restoring it back to it's glory keeping most of the historic character. It is such an interesting neighborhood and by far one of my favorites.

[Urbanized]

Wayman’s Park was named Linwood Park until 1969. Renamed then after a young man (boy?) in the neighborhood who apparently died young, at the request of his parents, according to the City’s website.

Newspaper reports from the early 20th century don’t make it clear where the name Linwood came from, but I did find mentions of it as a street name as early as 1906, which was three years before the streetcar was extended as a part of what appeared to be a second phase of development in the area. There are newspaper ads from a real estate company - one that appears to have included William Skirvin - from 1906 promoting buying homes in Linwood Park, while in 1909 development started in Linwood Place.

Here is a clipping promoting the kickoff of the latter development, which included an extension of Anton Classen and John Shartel’s railway (in the article the specific line to be extended was called the Neas Line):

[Urbanized]

By the way, the “W.F. Hale” mentioned in that article is most likely a typoed W.T. Hales, who made a fortune selling mules and horses downtown (including to the U.S. military during the Spanish American War, the British during the Second Boer War in South Africa, the British and French during WWI, the 101 Ranch, plus coal mines back east and railroad builders throughout the west) and who later transitioned to banking and real estate. He did a lot of business aligned with Classen and also with Henry Overholser, his across- the-street neighbor on NW 15th in what is now called Heritage Hills. Oh, and he is Megan Mullally’s great grandfather.

[HOT ROD]

Pete, yes it does totally pain to see those old pics of OKC, including the transit and downtown where lots have been 'covered up'.

I wonder if it would be a consideration for the city to expand the OKC Streetcar utilizing some of the heritage routes we used to have. I'd imagine it'd be cheaper since the utilities were already accommodated for and then we could very well re-urbanize development along the lines; essentially restoring some of the urban fabric in a way that used to exist.

Looks like all of the inner city districts were well covered, Capital Hill, Stockyard's City, the downtown districts, Asian and Paseo, Eastside, and even the Adventure District. Maybe we could do a MAPS 5 for transit, restoring these areas to promote urban development. Since the routes existed and likely the track is just buried, couldn't we dig that up and install modern track cheaper than starting from scratch?

[ditm4567]

Glad to see Pete will delete political comments--that were clearly a joke since it was teed up and hit 315 down the center of the fairway--when said comments, well, you know what I won't even go there.

[Dob Hooligan]

Pete, yes it does totally pain to see those old pics of OKC, including the transit and downtown where lots have been 'covered up'.

I wonder if it would be a consideration for the city to expand the OKC Streetcar utilizing some of the heritage routes we used to have. I'd imagine it'd be cheaper since the utilities were already accommodated for and then we could very well re-urbanize development along the lines; essentially restoring some of the urban fabric in a way that used to exist.

Looks like all of the inner city districts were well covered, Capital Hill, Stockyard's City, the downtown districts, Asian and Paseo, Eastside, and even the Adventure District. Maybe we could do a MAPS 5 for transit, restoring these areas to promote urban development. Since the routes existed and likely the track is just buried, couldn't we dig that up and install modern track cheaper than starting from scratch?

I'm guessing the lines were abandoned 70 years ago, and no thought was given to preserving their land for future use. So, there are probably many areas where utilities and land usage have compromised easy installation. In my part of town (Fairgrounds area) there were a few lines, and I think it would be cool to have them back. But, I'm not sure how many would ride, and the cost, of restoring the lines, like NW 12th west from Pennsylvania to Drexel, north to 23rd, with cross lines on 19th, etc.

Pretty much make a circle 3 miles from the center of OKC, and if you are on a street with a median, then it was probably on a street car line.

[Plutonic Panda]

Surprise surprise, but count me as somebody that is very happy. Our freeway system was built.

[bombermwc]

It's always a little sickening to see these old maps because we threw away all this amazing infrastructure and are now spending billions to recreate a tiny fraction of it.

Similarly, lots of cities are tearing out interstate highways in their cores and trying to reestablish what had been great urban fabric.

And we are still in the process of trying to remove "modern" facades that cover up beautiful architecture.


Of course, European countries pretty much avoided all these mistakes in the first place. It's like the U.S. went completely brain-dead for about half a century.

It's that whole post WW2 era when anything that might be looked at as "old" was equated to bad. Cover it up and make it look "modern". Who cares if it's damaged. But remember, at that point there really wasn't that much that had true historic significance. The US is still so young compared to Europe. They have structures hundreds of years old that are still going strong. The US has started appreciating that we DO have historic gems out there and that we need to preserve them and not just doze or cover them up.

The challenge is also recognizing that when the structure is still in that in-between. It's fallen out of the "new" category but hasn't yet gotten to "historic". Same story as before....can you renovate and hold the charm without making it still feel like an old crappy building.....and it still financially make sense. It's soooo tough. We will have to decide at some point soon if those 1960's concrete brutalist structures are going to fit in to the "preserve" category or not. We have a ton of those office buildings around the city. Most have had some sort of renovations that added on or changed something about the facade. Think the Oil Center or First Fidelity on Classen. That building design is copy/paste all over OKC. Or at least one very close to it. You get to see a lot of different ideas on changes to it that way...but where do you draw that line for renovate to keep relevant, and preserve for what it is (in this case brutalism).

[baralheia]

Maintenance never gets completed (like the sewer line issue).

I don't have a dog in this fight since I haven't stepped foot in that mall for a few years now... but for what it's worth the plumbing issues are nothing new. I worked at the theater around 2005-2006-ish and Simon was constantly battling with the plumbing even back then.

[Teo9969]

I'm guessing the lines were abandoned 70 years ago, and no thought was given to preserving their land for future use. So, there are probably many areas where utilities and land usage have compromised easy installation. In my part of town (Fairgrounds area) there were a few lines, and I think it would be cool to have them back. But, I'm not sure how many would ride, and the cost, of restoring the lines, like NW 12th west from Pennsylvania to Drexel, north to 23rd, with cross lines on 19th, etc.

Pretty much make a circle 3 miles from the center of OKC, and if you are on a street with a median, then it was probably on a street car line.

Fascinating!!! That makes a ton of sense.