OKC Zoo

[Jake]

This would be like if the new arena cost came out to be, what, 1.7 billion dollars? What's sad is that I could see people on here defending that too. A 93% overrun is unbelievable.

[mugofbeer]

Because the zoo gets funds from a dedicated sales tax and can not deliver what was promised.

If we get anything at all, it will be far less than what had been presented in numerous public meetings. And they will either over-spend by 93% and thus compromise the long list of future projects they have presented in a recent master plan, or cut half the project altogether.


Anyone with a job: Try submitting a project for approval, receiving a budget, then after getting everything approved, publish the plans to a broad audience including the press, then go back and tell your boss the project can't be done because you missed the budget by 93%.

See how long you keep your job.

Try putting together a proposal for a capitol improvement project so funds can be raised, seeing inflation of the rates we have suffered, then expecting it to come in within budget 3 years later. It would be impossible.

I will accept that the biggest error the director made was not warning of the cost inflation much sooner but, as was said, he seemed to be relying on costs coming down post covid, and post supply chain problems. And yes, construction costs can come down. Here are examples of inflation in the construction sector. Note that some cost did deflate but not nearly as much as they inflated. Also note, this doesn't include labor which apparently is expected to be in short supply.

it is a rare time construction projects in the public sector stay within budget.

https://edzarenski.com/2024/01/17/co...nflation-2024/

[mugofbeer]

This would be like if the new arena cost came out to be, what, 1.7 billion dollars? What's sad is that I could see people on here defending that too. A 93% overrun is unbelievable.

just wait........

[Pete]

Try putting together a proposal for a capitol improvement project so funds can be raised, seeing inflation of the rates we have suffered, then expecting it to come in within budget 3 years later. It would be impossible.

I will accept that the biggest error the director made was not warning of the cost inflation much sooner but, as was said, he seemed to be relying on costs coming down post covid, and post supply chain problems. And yes, construction costs can come down. Here are examples of inflation in the construction sector. Note that some cost did deflate but not nearly as much as they inflated. Also note, this doesn't include labor.

it is a rare time construction projects in the public sector stay within budget.

https://edzarenski.com/2024/01/17/co...nflation-2024/

I've managed bigger construction costs than this.

We've known about all these 'problems' for 4 years now. This project was recently unveiled and they demoed the existing structure to start work. So they didn't bother to recalculate? Not factoring all these issues into the budget is outrageously irresponsible. It's not like they cropped up a week ago.

None of these excuses would fly in the real world and this sort of thing should be handled in the same way: accountability. Again, imagine yourself standing in your boss's office trying to make these excuses. He or she would be furious and you'd be out of a job.

[mugofbeer]

Ignoring the realities of the last 4 years is wrong and, yes, they are and have been accepted in the real world because I see it in my own company. We recently dropped a major new site project due to huge construction cost overruns and availability of empty office space elsewhere. That is the current reality. The zoo project is construction of a unique structure of which there are no existing alternatives. Not spending $ and determining what is feasible was the right call.

[Plutonic Panda]

I have started to make a list of all the City projects that have gone very far over budget and well beyond stated timelines.

It's already a long list and predates the universal 'pandemic' and 'inflation' catch-all excuses.

The city frequently badly misses on projects and either makes huge value engineering compromises or moves money budgeted for other things. They also miss -- badly -- timelines, often by years.


I've been talking about this for at least 15 years. There needs to be reports against original budgets and timelines. They never do that and thus never learn. And we keep making the same mistakes over and over.

And these aren't little things; they are huge misses.


One current example: Union Station. Just asked David Todd about this a week ago and learned it's the same song: don't have enough money, value engineering, delays and more delays that just cost more money, will end up with a small fraction of what was proposed.

Also now happening with the Palomar MAPS 4 project (also delayed and over budget), and they can only build about 2/3rds of the Hefner Clubhouse, on and on.

Don’t forget about the county jail

[Pete]

Ignoring the realities of the last 4 years is wrong and, yes, they are and have been accepted in the real world because I see it in my own company. We recently dropped a major new site project due to huge construction cost overruns and availability of empty office space elsewhere. That is the current reality. The zoo project is construction of a unique structure of which there are no existing alternatives. Not spending $ and determining what is feasible was the right call.

Did they put out a press release a couple of months ago and then start work?

I seriously doubt we are talking about anything remotely comparable.

[mugofbeer]

Did they put out a press release a couple of months ago and then start work?

I seriously doubt we are talking about anything remotely comparable.

They took down a structure that was also unique and wasn't part of the new project. As we have seen with some other structures around town, demolition takes a fraction of the time as the reconstruction.

edit: of most things. Demo of the Myriad is going to be huge.

[Pete]

They took down a structure that was also unique and wasn't part of the new project. As we have seen with some other structures around town, demolition takes a fraction of the time as the reconstruction.

edit: of most things. Demo of the Myriad is going to be huge.

Demolition was part of the project budget, part of the project work.

They started and spent money, now can't go forward.


If the state or federal government had done this people would be throwing a royal fit and politicians would be demanding accountability.

[mugofbeer]

Demolition was part of the project budget, part of the project work.

They started and spent money, now can't go forward.


If the state or federal government had done this people would be throwing a royal fit and politicians would be demanding accountability.

Yes, demolition did start - of a mostly unused and possibly dilapidated structure. I'm sorry but site clearing happens frequently. As I've said, the director could\should have been more forthcoming about the rising construction costs but he can't be blamed for inflation, labor shortages, etc. The frequent reevaluations of cost also cost money.

[Patrick]

Yes, demolition did start - of a mostly unused and possibly dilapidated structure. I'm sorry but site clearing happens frequently. As I've said, the director could\should have been more forthcoming about the rising construction costs but he can't be blamed for inflation, labor shortages, etc. The frequent reevaluations of cost also cost money.

Yeah, but the old arena in the aquaticus facility wasn't entirely horrible and could've continued to be used for sea lion shows until the issue was resolved. Now we're left with nothing.

[mugofbeer]

but WAS it being used? (I don't know)

[jn1780]

but WAS it being used? (I don't know)

Yes, the sea lions and seals were sent away to other zoos. They were assets to the zoo. It may not be large, but there is some level of impact on guest attendance.

[cinnamonjock]

lol none of this is accurate

you have a habit of telling people they are wrong without saying why, which adds very little to the conversation.

[warreng88]

Can someone please explain to me like I'm 12 how something like this happens?

In my opinion, if I am bidding a job, I get three bids and I understand that they are cost plus or what the budget is. I would guess, the people placing the bids have their subs give them estimates and they build the bid based on the estimates. The bid comes to me and it is good through, whatever date...

What am I missing here?

[FighttheGoodFight]

Can someone please explain to me like I'm 12 how something like this happens?

In my opinion, if I am bidding a job, I get three bids and I understand that they are cost plus or what the budget is. I would guess, the people placing the bids have their subs give them estimates and they build the bid based on the estimates. The bid comes to me and it is good through, whatever date...

What am I missing here?

Depends on how they bid the projects. If it is a bond (I have some familiarity with this) then you have someone estimate the total cost of a project then bid it out to see who can come in under that. So if the original estimate is way off (post covid they have been pretty off) then the bids are all under that but can't build the building for that amount.

I dont think there is anything nefarious going on, construction is extremely hard to estimate properly even with padding. Then you have change orders come through from the ownership and that just adds up more and more. Also lots of unknowns once they get started. Sometimes the lot needs more work than they thought when they start digging. There are so many factors in construction that just add up. And if this is a government project they have to take the lowest bid and then you run into someone who underbid and tries to push change orders for everything to get their money back out of the project.

[Pete]

I don't think anything is nefarious, just horribly managed which raises much bigger concerns, especially since just in the last few months they paid for an elaborate Master Plan with associated budgets, which now has to be considered equally useless.

And a reminder, we only know about this because an email was leaked, not because anyone at the zoo has been forthcoming.

Also, we can probably forget about an aquarium at OKANA.


But hey, let's blame all this on inflation and just keep on keeping on.

[Paseofreak]

Sounds as though the director, who seems competent at feeding the animals and displaying them, is way out of his element in planning, procuring and overseeing design and construction services. that's not one bit surprising given the unique and complex nature of the project. He bit off way more than he could chew. It should have been assigned to a seasoned pro with a verified successful history.

[FighttheGoodFight]

I'd also say Zoos all probably use the same design group since it is a very specialty field. That for sure ups the cost

[Pete]

Yeah, they contract with all types of planning, construction, and architecture firms.

However, the buck stops with the Executive Director who hires and manages these groups, provides final approvals, and is responsible for budgets and timelines.


I held a similar position, effectively the COO for a large, national wealth-managment firm in L.A. I ran Finance, facilities, IT, HR, Compliance and a few other things.

And when we missed our budget and completion date for a huge new offices in the middle of downtown San Franciso, I was held personally accountable despite the fact there were millions of variables and unanticipated issues. You make a contingency budget exactly for that purpose and nobody wanted to hear about permitting issues, supply constraints, material overruns, or anything else. These are part and partial of managing these types of projects. Inflation? "Why did you not budget this correctly when the numbers weren't even finalized until we started work?" That is a completely fair question and a lack of answer would shake the confidence of anyone up the chain of command.

By the time we built offices in Palo Alto, Seattle, and Beverly Hills -- all very difficult places to build -- I had the budget figured out with plenty of contingency factored in. And I also held the architects, interior designers, and contractors accountable along the way to make sure I didn't have any overruns. If I had low-balled the numbers to get approval, then hope they came down even though we have been experiencing big challenges in the construction industry, how do you think that would have been received?


What I'm saying is this reporting and learning process never seems to happen with City projects and we keep making *big* mistakes over and over. Not reporting against budget with associated line-item variances is completely crazy -- I've never seen this in the private sector.

Another classic example is Project 180 which ended up completing only about half of what was promised and taking years longer. That was way before the pandemic. There have been many others that I will list later. I've regarded this as a huge issue for at least a decade and I've made these same points on many threads over the years -- I'm not singling out the zoo.

[BoulderSooner]

BTW, waiting always makes things more expensive so how is that a responsible strategy?


Anyone with a job: Try submitting a project for approval, receiving a budget, then after getting everything approved, publish the plans to a broad audience including the press, then go back and tell your boss the project can't be done because you missed the budget by 93%.

but of course the way the city does things is .. you apporve prelim plans you apporve demolation ..

you then get a bid for demo .. it happens

you get a design contract with cost estimates ..

you then put those out for the actually bid .. and only then do the true numbers come in


perhaps they should be able to do all that at once but that is NOT the way the city is allowed to operate ..

this is not like building a simple warehouse .. there are hundreds of different things needed and all need to be bid on ..

[Pete]

Another thing: I talk to a lot of architects, engineers, and contractors who work on City projects.

They *all* raise the same point about very poor budgeting and how it only seems to be getting worse, not better.

I'm telling you, this is a problem because even though most of these projects get done, the budgeting gap is only closed in one of two ways, or often both: 1) we get much less than was promised; and/or 2) we take money from elsewhere which means other important projects get reduced, delayed, or scrapped altogether.

[Pete]

but of course the way the city does things is .. you apporve prelim plans you apporve demolation ..

you then get a bid for demo .. it happens

you get a design contract with cost estimates ..

you then put those out for the actually bid .. and only then do the true numbers come in


perhaps they should be able to do all that at once but that is NOT the way the city is allowed to operate ..

This is not the way it works.

They had plans drawn up and bid before they ever did the demolition. I published them here long before they started work. I saw the project on the bid list.


I will reiterate what I have often said: if this was consistently happening (huge misses) at the state and federal level, people would be howling. Yet, happens at the City all the time and all anyone wants to do is make excuses. It makes zero sense to me.

[FighttheGoodFight]

I'd be interested on who they hired or used to do the construction estimate.

[Pete]

I'd be interested on who they hired or used to do the construction estimate.

The email from Lawson said JE Dunn.