New Arena (formerly Prairie Surf)

[baralheia]

^

Except there is plenty of room all around the station for structured parking.

Except... there's not though. The station is on the west side of the tracks. The small parking areas directly north and south of the station building are not large enough for structured parking, and there are no other suitable plots of land immediately nearby for parking that aren't already committed to other uses.

And, who will be driving to downtown and then leaving their car in a garage? If there is ever commuter rail, it will work the opposite way.

If there were a safe, reliable, and convenient place to park my car for multiple days when I take Amtrak, I'd be parking downtown to take the train right now! If you're just going for a day trip, utilizing transit options to get to the downtown station is fine - but if you're hauling luggage around with you, driving to the station is vastly superior. Utilizing rideshare services (Lyft/Uber/taxi/etc) can be an option but I've found them to be less reliable than I'd prefer around the time of morning that Amtrak departs OKC.

Once the commuter rail line is built, that still won't take care of everyone needing to get to Santa Fe Station, either. You'll still have people who live in the downtown area who aren't efficiently served by public transport in order to get to the station - either they're not along any of the routes selected by the RTA, or a walk of more than a couple of blocks is necessary to even engage with transit. Like, imagine trying to get from the center of Mesta Park to Santa Fe Station. That's a half-mile walk to the nearest transit stop (the RAPID stop on 17th & Classen), which will take you to the downtown transit center, but then you'll need to walk another ~3 blocks from the downtown transit center to Santa Fe Station - a total trip time of 30-45 minutes depending on walking speed. That's enough friction to make driving to the station the preferred option for many - especially if luggage is part of that equation, or if you have a disability that makes walking longer distances difficult. Not including enough parking for the station's future needs will kneecap these services before they've even begun service.

[Pete]

Except... there's not though. The station is on the west side of the tracks. The small parking areas directly north and south of the station building are not large enough for structured parking, and there are no other suitable plots of land immediately nearby for parking that aren't already committed to other uses.


If there were a safe, reliable, and convenient place to park my car for multiple days when I take Amtrak, I'd be parking downtown to take the train right now! If you're just going for a day trip, utilizing transit options to get to the downtown station is fine - but if you're hauling luggage around with you, driving to the station is vastly superior. Utilizing rideshare services (Lyft/Uber/taxi/etc) can be an option but I've found them to be less reliable than I'd prefer around the time of morning that Amtrak departs OKC.

Once the commuter rail line is built, that still won't take care of everyone needing to get to Santa Fe Station, either. You'll still have people who live in the downtown area who aren't efficiently served by public transport in order to get to the station - either they're not along any of the routes selected by the RTA, or a walk of more than a couple of blocks is necessary to even engage with transit. Like, imagine trying to get from the center of Mesta Park to Santa Fe Station. That's a half-mile walk to the nearest transit stop (the RAPID stop on 17th & Classen), which will take you to the downtown transit center, but then you'll need to walk another ~3 blocks from the downtown transit center to Santa Fe Station - a total trip time of 30-45 minutes depending on walking speed. That's enough friction to make driving to the station the preferred option for many - especially if luggage is part of that equation, or if you have a disability that makes walking longer distances difficult. Not including enough parking for the station's future needs will kneecap these services before they've even begun service.

This is not the way it works in cities with real transit hubs. People don't drive to them, then park their cars. They take transit to them, then use the connections.

And even if you wanted to make that argument, wasn't the entire point of the streetcar to link many of the existing parking structures and lots with all the downtown amenities? There is already a stop right around the corner and another could be added directly in front of the station, as multiple plans have shown.

We have assloads of parking lots and structures in the immediate area, and very few are ever full. Yet another would be a tremendous misuse of the most important block in all of OKC.

[OkieBerto]

Anyone who is currently attending a game knows there are tons of people who will park a mile away in a garage, then walk to the game. The last time I went to a game I parked in Deep Deuce and walked. There is no reason for a giant amount of new parking.

[Pete]

I'm willing to bet the countless downtown parking structures are nowhere near full during a Thunder game or concert.

One of the great things about downtown parking is that Thunder games and concerts don't start until the evening or on weekends when all the downtown workers have long cleared out. And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, far fewer people are working downtown since the pandemic.

We don't need more parking, we need less.

[baralheia]

This is not the way it works in cities with real transit hubs. People don't drive to them, then park their cars. They take transit to them, then use the connections.

And even if you wanted to make that argument, wasn't the entire point of the streetcar to link many of the existing parking structures and lots with all the downtown amenities? There is already a stop right around the corner and another could be added directly in front of the station, as multiple plans have shown.

We have assloads of parking lots and structures in the immediate area, and very few are ever full. Yet another would be a tremendous misuse of the most important block in all of OKC.

Dallas, Fort Worth, St Louis, Kansas City, Albuquerque, El Paso, and Tucson (among others) all have either surface or structured parking immediately adjacent to their stations. I know the parking in Fort Worth is used a lot for Amtrak passengers. Sure, cities with effective transit systems like Denver or LA can funnel people to their downtown train stations using their transit network, but as it stands today, would you call our network effective? Maybe if EMBARK completely rebuilt their downtown bus routes to directly serve the station, or made the streetcar platform on the EKG bypass track a regular part of the route, but that would only address the downtown portion of the access equation. Sure the Streetcar has the Bricktown and Santa Fe Hub stops, but they're on the wrong side of the tracks and (last I looked) there was absolutely no wayfinding signage to tell you how to get from those stops to the Santa Fe hub - or from the various downtown parking garages to their nearest streetcar stop, for that matter. But besides that - what if (for example) you live in Bethany, or Mustang, or Del City and you want to take the train? There IS a need for adequate, immediately adjacent parking for Santa Fe Station to support the services it hosts today and will host in the future. It doesn't need to be massive (nor would I want it to be tbqh), and it doesn't need to be dedicated solely for the use of Santa Fe Station either. But without a massive overhaul to how this city thinks about transit, it's incredibly short-sighted not to have at least a small garage attached to the arena that can also be used for train passengers.

EDIT: I don't know if this is still part of the plan, but I do recall that in previous planning that's been done for Santa Fe Station, there was also a desire to lure Greyhound back into downtown, to be co-located with supporting facilities for the station building. The lower level of this garage could be used for exactly that sort of purpose too.

[Pete]

There is plenty of parking adjacent to Santa Fe Station; it is right in the middle of dozens of parking garages and lots and on two different sections of the street car line. This is a silly argument.

[dankrutka]

Dallas, Fort Worth, St Louis, Kansas City, Albuquerque, El Paso, and Tucson (among others) all have either surface or structured parking immediately adjacent to their stations. I know the parking in Fort Worth is used a lot for Amtrak passengers.

Which lots are you referring to next to Fort Worth Central Station? I've taken Amtrak to OKC quite a few times and the surface lots across the street are usually empty. I end up walking through those giant empty lots on my way into downtown Fort Worth.

[jn1780]

Its kind of a mute point, because there will be some kind of garage directly serving the new arena. The very low demand of the train station is easy fulfilled by the current surface lot to the south. The current Marriot/arena parking garage will be there too which they should probably demolish this one and replace it with a new one that is bigger and taller.

[HOT ROD]

Yes facts can lie when trying to assign cause and effect. There is no causality by coincidence.

Tell us how many patrons of these developments actually use the streetcar? Im guessing few of the Renaissance guests chose the hotel because it was near the streetcar and more because of the reservation system. In fact, I'm betting very few even were aware of the streetcar when they booked.

you dont have to use the streetcar for it to have been a catalyst for development. Im very surprised by this comment from you, Rover. .. And to be clear, I said the hotel itself was developed after the streetcar was built, likely aiding to its development, similarly Citizen tower. Whether patrons of the hotel use the streetcar is their choice - its a free country, but it IS available.

I'd argue that the Rapid NW has also contributed to development along Classen. Yes some of that was happening prior to it's launch, but like the streetcar, it was well known that a light rail or BRT would be built along Classen, again restoring its transit backbone. And like the streetcar, we're seeing development that while may not have transit users, does still improve the chance of development given the infrastructure investment.

[HOT ROD]

Dallas, Fort Worth, St Louis, Kansas City, Albuquerque, El Paso, and Tucson (among others) all have either surface or structured parking immediately adjacent to their stations. I know the parking in Fort Worth is used a lot for Amtrak passengers. Sure, cities with effective transit systems like Denver or LA can funnel people to their downtown train stations using their transit network, but as it stands today, would you call our network effective? Maybe if EMBARK completely rebuilt their downtown bus routes to directly serve the station, or made the streetcar platform on the EKG bypass track a regular part of the route, but that would only address the downtown portion of the access equation. Sure the Streetcar has the Bricktown and Santa Fe Hub stops, but they're on the wrong side of the tracks and (last I looked) there was absolutely no wayfinding signage to tell you how to get from those stops to the Santa Fe hub - or from the various downtown parking garages to their nearest streetcar stop, for that matter. But besides that - what if (for example) you live in Bethany, or Mustang, or Del City and you want to take the train? There IS a need for adequate, immediately adjacent parking for Santa Fe Station to support the services it hosts today and will host in the future. It doesn't need to be massive (nor would I want it to be tbqh), and it doesn't need to be dedicated solely for the use of Santa Fe Station either. But without a massive overhaul to how this city thinks about transit, it's incredibly short-sighted not to have at least a small garage attached to the arena that can also be used for train passengers.

EDIT: I don't know if this is still part of the plan, but I do recall that in previous planning that's been done for Santa Fe Station, there was also a desire to lure Greyhound back into downtown, to be co-located with supporting facilities for the station building. The lower level of this garage could be used for exactly that sort of purpose too.

OKC already has parking garage next to its Amtrak: the Santa Fe Parking Garage. It was originally built as an extension of the Santa Fe depot; (regardless of who owns it today) One can park there today, right?

I suppose we in the Pac NW didn't get the memo that 'people wont drive downtown to catch a train'. ...

In Seattle, there is a massive surface parking lot next to King Street Amtrak station, along with a garage topped with an Embassy Suites. In Tacoma, there is a massive parking garage next to its Amtrak station, with numerous TOD residential existing and being built. In Everett, there are parking lots next to its Amtrak station. Portland has parking garages and some surface lots next to its Union Train station.

Only Vancouver BC doesn't have parking garage/lot at its Pacific Centre Train/Bus Station (does have SkyTrain metro line right there).

Come to think of it, Union Station in Washington DC also has a parking garage next to it. These are all places I've personally been to, parked, and taken trains btw.

[PhiAlpha]

OKC already has parking garage next to its Amtrak: the Santa Fe Parking Garage. It was originally built as an extension of the Santa Fe depot; (regardless of who owns it today) One can park there today, right?

I suppose we in the Pac NW didn't get the memo that 'people wont drive downtown to catch a train'. ...

In Seattle, there is a massive surface parking lot next to King Street Amtrak station, along with a garage topped with an Embassy Suites. In Tacoma, there is a massive parking garage next to its Amtrak station, with numerous TOD residential existing and being built. In Everett, there are parking lots next to its Amtrak station. Portland has parking garages and some surface lots next to its Union Train station.

Only Vancouver BC doesn't have parking garage/lot at its Pacific Centre Train/Bus Station (does have SkyTrain metro line right there).

Come to think of it, Union Station in Washington DC also has a parking garage next to it. These are all places I've personally been to, parked, and taken trains btw.

Pretty sure the Santa Fe garage is restricted to BancFirst and Continental employees now but could be wrong. It might be open at night and on weekends but it is definitely restricted during work hours.

[bamarsha]

you dont have to use the streetcar for it to have been a catalyst for development. Im very surprised by this comment from you, Rover. .. And to be clear, I said the hotel itself was developed after the streetcar was built, likely aiding to its development, similarly Citizen tower. Whether patrons of the hotel use the streetcar is their choice - its a free country, but it IS available.

I'd argue that the Rapid NW has also contributed to development along Classen. Yes some of that was happening prior to it's launch, but like the streetcar, it was well known that a light rail or BRT would be built along Classen, again restoring its transit backbone. And like the streetcar, we're seeing development that while may not have transit users, does still improve the chance of development given the infrastructure investment.

Rover said it because is is most likely correct. I really don't think the hotel or the tower would have been built elsewhere (or not built at all) if the streetcar wasn't there. I would bet the streetcar was 99.999% irrelevant to the decision to build at these locations.

The streetcar in OKC is nothing more than a money wasting "status symbol" that says want to be like NYC and LA (or wherever)... or maybe 25+ years before people around here are more accepting of it (outside of this forum, anyway).

[OkieBerto]

Rover said it because is is most likely correct. I really don't think the hotel or the tower would have been built elsewhere (or not built at all) if the streetcar wasn't there. I would bet the streetcar was 99.999% irrelevant to the decision to build at these locations.

The streetcar in OKC is nothing more than a money wasting "status symbol" that says want to be like NYC and LA (or wherever)... or maybe 25+ years before people around here are more accepting of it (outside of this forum, anyway).

Progress in a City like OKC takes time. The streetcar will expand to all of these event venues to carry large amounts of people to those locations. We can't just make these things happen overnight. I do not think our city is trying to be NYC or LA. I am pretty sure we are just trying to be a little bit like Kansas City. Which is still a lofty goal. Last year we went to KC for new years and it was a wonderful experience. The Chiefs were playing the Bengals and the city was filled with out of towners. Most of which were not in their owned vehicles. They either rented a car or took an uber or they used the public transit there. We took our car, but rarely used it because the street car took us through many parts of the city for little cost. It is not a massive line of street cars, but it makes a ton of economic sense to make it easier for out of towners to spend money all over the city.

When we have the Olympics in 2028 we will need many different types of transportation for these people, especially those wanting to go to the Softball games. Not sure how investing in the future of this city is a waste of money!

[baralheia]

OKC already has parking garage next to its Amtrak: the Santa Fe Parking Garage. It was originally built as an extension of the Santa Fe depot; (regardless of who owns it today) One can park there today, right?

Door to door, it's 2 blocks away. If you've got luggage and you park in that garage (assuming they allow public parking anymore), you're gonna be walking from the garage's elevator core (in the plaza between the Skirvin and the BancFirst tower) down to Main, then over to EKG, and then down to the station. Depending on the exact route you take this could be as much as 1/3mi (measured via Google Earth). That doesn't sound like much but if you're carrying luggage, that's not a short distance. For comparison's sake, that's a similar distance to walking from the middle of the long-term/shuttle parking lot to the terminal at WRWA... but they use shuttles for moving people from that lot to the terminal building.

If OKC started an official partnership with the garage and offered a shuttle between the garage and Santa Fe Station (or an expansion of the elevated Underground walkway to Santa Fe Station) along with wayfinding signage for that purpose, I'd be far more okay with using it for Amtrak/RTA parking. But if the airport considers that distance too far to walk, then it should be considered too far for the train too, in my opinion.

It's also worth noting that back in 2011, ACOG's Intermodal Transportation Hub Master Plan identified an expected future need for 850 parking spaces for the station. This assumes the Santa Fe Station complex would host a combination of inter-city bus service, streetcar service, commuter rail, expanded Amtrak service, and future high-speed rail. Back then, they suggested this parking need could be fulfilled by building a garage either between the rail viaduct and the Plow building along Reno, or on the lot now committed to the Boardwalk at Bricktown / Legends Tower development (with the latter being the preferred option). (Source: Intermodal Transportation Hub Master Plan for Central Oklahoma, section 9 (pg 47) [https://digitalprairie.ok.gov/digita...ovpub/id/26598] and Intermodal Transportation Hub Master Plan for Central Oklahoma Appendix, section 4 (pg 19) [https://www.acogok.org/wp-content/up...dyappendix.pdf]).

I'm sorry for crossing the streams but due to the existing planning being done for Santa Fe Station combined with the Thunder leadership's desire for parking on-site, I feel it's relevant to this thread. Given the location, a shared garage really does make a lot of sense as part of the new arena development, especially if it looks good and the structure can be incorporated with other uses too (i.e. ground-floor retail/restaurant/event space and/or hotel/offices/etc above).

[DowntownMan]

Pretty sure the Santa Fe garage is restricted to BancFirst and Continental employees now but could be wrong. It might be open at night and on weekends but it is definitely restricted during work hours.

It’s open to public parking any time of day. First couple floors reserved but rest is open parking. It’s pretty full during workday but still available

[Elrenogolf]

Progress in a City like OKC takes time. The streetcar will expand to all of these event venues to carry large amounts of people to those locations. We can't just make these things happen overnight. I do not think our city is trying to be NYC or LA. I am pretty sure we are just trying to be a little bit like Kansas City. Which is still a lofty goal. Last year we went to KC for new years and it was a wonderful experience. The Chiefs were playing the Bengals and the city was filled with out of towners. Most of which were not in their owned vehicles. They either rented a car or took an uber or they used the public transit there. We took our car, but rarely used it because the street car took us through many parts of the city for little cost. It is not a massive line of street cars, but it makes a ton of economic sense to make it easier for out of towners to spend money all over the city.

When we have the Olympics in 2028 we will need many different types of transportation for these people, especially those wanting to go to the Softball games. Not sure how investing in the future of this city is a waste of money!

Kansas City’s street car is free which I am sure helps ridership.

[Laramie]

Progress in a City like OKC takes time. The streetcar will expand to all of these event venues to carry large amounts of people to those locations. We can't just make these things happen overnight. I do not think our city is trying to be NYC or LA. I am pretty sure we are just trying to be a little bit like Kansas City. Which is still a lofty goal. Last year we went to KC for new years and it was a wonderful experience. The Chiefs were playing the Bengals and the city was filled with out of towners. Most of which were not in their owned vehicles. They either rented a car or took an uber or they used the public transit there. We took our car, but rarely used it because the street car took us through many parts of the city for little cost. It is not a massive line of street cars, but it makes a ton of economic sense to make it easier for out of towners to spend money all over the city.

When we have the Olympics in 2028 we will need many different types of transportation for these people, especially those wanting to go to the Softball games. Not sure how investing in the future of this city is a waste of money!

That IMO is the whole point in getting out-of-towners to spent money in OKC; it's new money being infused into our local economy (not money being recirculated).

Good points. We also need to remember that K. C.'s streetcar is free (noted by Elrenogolf) ; IIRC financed by the businesses on the route.

Continue to see no more than 5 passengers on those streetcars in circulation. May as well have 15 or more on the cars since they are moving on the routes.

Would a free (no fee) streetcar be more beneficial to our community?

[Laramie]

You (IIFC) have to buy the tokens to ride the streetcars; can't use currency. A more traditional method of payment using currency as we do with Embark buses might increase ridership--like a dollar bill.

Forgive me for getting off the arena topic.

[Laramie]

Still say we need to take a page from Louisville's booK:


Something similar with about 18,500 minimum seating; Yum Center construction cost - $238 Million built in 2006.

We've building our new arena for the City of Oklahoma City as well as our NBA Oklahoma City Thunder; also the
City could partner with a hotel to have 200 luxury suites on site.

[mugofbeer]

This is not the way it works in cities with real transit hubs. People don't drive to them, then park their cars. They take transit to them, then use the connections.

This is not true in western US cities with light rail. In Denver amd Dallas, they have each. Stations where busses connect AND parking (some large garages) for cars. Before covid, the Lt. rail was heavily used. That has not been the case since covid.

[BG918]

One of the things that keeps getting missed in the parking garage discussion: remember, this is directly across EKG from Santa Fe Station. Any parking built on this site will be instrumental in supporting OKC's regional commuter rail ambitions, along with any expansion of longer-distance passenger rail options - both of which are currently in the works. So I'm not at all opposed to structured parking on this site, especially if it's integrated with other amenities like ground-level retail (among other things).

I see the proximity to Santa Fe Depot as a major plus in the coming years once commuter rail comes online. Lots of people in live in Edmond and Norman (and maybe eventually Moore if they join the RTA) will use the train so they can basically be dropped off next to the arena.

Another reason for OU’s future arena to be next to a commuter rail station..

[Laramie]

.



Louisville: Construction cost 2010: $238 million, Basketball: 22,090, Concerts: End stage: 17,500

^OKC will be working with a $900 million budget^

Oklahoma City Council approved MANICA Architecture as the Design Architect and TVS as the Architect of Record for the design and development of OKC's new arena.

Benefit the residents of Oklahoma City
Meet NBA specifications and requirements
Maximize team revenues, ensuring the sustainability of major league professional sports in Oklahoma City

The NBA average capacity is 18,790: should a minimum of 18,500-19,500 seats be or goal.

Pete's idea of an arena-stadium-entertainment district should be developed.

This is where I feel OKC should build an arena flexible for growth. Bring back 'The All College Tournament,' showcase our city; build the tournament to the level of the WCWS with an 8-team tourney.

[Pete]

This is not true in western US cities with light rail. In Denver amd Dallas, they have each. Stations where busses connect AND parking (some large garages) for cars. Before covid, the Lt. rail was heavily used. That has not been the case since covid.

We are talking about downtown transit hubs, not light rail stations in outlying areas.

[OkieBerto]

That IMO is the whole point in getting out-of-towners to spent money in OKC; it's new money being infused into our local economy (not money being recirculated).

Good points. We also need to remember that K. C.'s streetcar is free (noted by Elrenogolf) ; IIRC financed by the businesses on the route.

Continue to see no more than 5 passengers on those streetcars in circulation. May as well have 15 or more on the cars since they are moving on the routes.

Would a free (no fee) streetcar be more beneficial to our community?

Yes, it is free, but I don't think it necessarily needs to be free. However, it needs to be easier and more efficient to use. All transit should be under one payment system. I went to cities this year where even their parking is on one app that is run by the transit authorities. Having the ability to use one payment to get Streetcar, Bus, Bike, and even parking would make visitors love the city even more.

[TheTravellers]

Yes, it is free, but I don't think it necessarily needs to be free. However, it needs to be easier and more efficient to use. All transit should be under one payment system. I went to cities this year where even their parking is on one app that is run by the transit authorities. Having the ability to use one payment to get Streetcar, Bus, Bike, and even parking would make visitors love the city even more.

Pretty much inexcusable to not have an umbrella transit app (or just card to swipe) for all modes when we're almost 1/4 of the way into the 21st century.