University Town Center

[jedicurt]

and there is why it will fail and hurt norman. part of the opposition keeps talking about wanting it on campus to make it better for students, when students don't care. and the other doesn't want it to affect the norman budget, but can't seem to wrap their head around the idea that he won't affect the norman budget. even the money for schools piece just shows that it gets paid of significantly quicker and then the money can get to schools.

who have two groups of people who don't want to believe the facts and so are working together

[Rover]

and there is why it will fail and hurt norman. part of the opposition keeps talking about wanting it on campus to make it better for students, when students don't care. and the other doesn't want it to affect the norman budget, but can't seem to wrap their head around the idea that he won't affect the norman budget. even the money for schools piece just shows that it gets paid of significantly quicker and then the money can get to schools.

who have two groups of people who don't want to believe the facts and so are working together

Well, in fairness, Moore isn't so far away, so they can just drive there and into OKC for the quality of life developments. They don’t need development and growth in Norman. They can just live off of OU and live in their own little berg.

[Plutonic Panda]

Well, in fairness, Moore isn't so far away, so they can just drive there and into OKC for the quality of life developments. They don’t need development and growth in Norman. They can just live off of OU and live in their own little berg.

Haha for now. That is until the exurbs south of the river explode with the development if that ever happens, Norman will probably be singing a different tune.

[Rover]

Haha for now. That is until the exurbs south of the river explode with the development if that ever happens, Norman will probably be singing a different tune.

You do know i was being sarcastic, right?

[Plutonic Panda]

You do know i was being sarcastic, right?

No I didn’t. Ugh me and the internet.

[BoulderSooner]

^ And how many of those are tax paying full time residents of Norman?
The issue here is the $600M price tag that the city is on the hook for. When I collected signatures that was the concern. Folks signing did not care about the arena, they cared about the city budget.
Most felt it was on the State to pay for it.

as has been stated is in print and is real the city would not be on the hook ... the TIF and developers would PERIOD >>

[Jersey Boss]

The development agreement states that it is a "large, high risk venture" that is only feasible with public assistance in financing 230M in principal to build an arena. There is a high risk the OU foundation goals are not met. If 100 M has already been diverted to the TIF then the city has lost that money. There is no money back guarantee.

The proposed arena TIF grabs tax from 11 properties south of Rock Creek. These are adjacent to developed lots and the YAC. These will develop further w/o the arena. All government entities give up any revenue growth from these properties. The TIF impact is estimated to be over 1M annually after stabilization.

Another cost to Norman taxpayers is the loss of tax revenues from existing business outside of the proposed TIF. After the previous TIF for UNP was created the tax base on the ENP cratered when existing business moved to UNP. Reports that informed the project plan suggest 45% of activity in the Arena TIF would have happened naturally w/o an arena.

As far as schools go. A rough estimate is that the project would take $100M of school taxes from NPS. Take the $389M in estimated tax collections (from project plan) multiplied by the % of property taxes that go to schools (60%) and multiply the natural growth rate w/o the arena, 45%.

This is a horrible deal for the taxpaying residents and families with school kids.

This plan as is needs to be scuttled.

[Rover]

It will be decades before that estimated 45% eventual growth actually might happen and will likely not be of the quality as proposed. As well, the city can become known as an anti-growth provincial community that steers substantial development to other areas of the city growing faster and better than Norman. Meanwhile, the anti group can celebrate all the income they saved that isn’t there and won’t be for decades. Norman anti group is overplaying their hand substantially. Not saying they might not win as it is easier to be anti than to create and be for something.

[onthestrip]

It will be decades before that estimated 45% eventual growth actually might happen and will likely not be of the quality as proposed. As well, the city can become known as an anti-growth provincial community that steers substantial development to other areas of the city growing faster and better than Norman. Meanwhile, the anti group can celebrate all the income they saved that isn’t there and won’t be for decades. Norman anti group is overplaying their hand substantially. Not saying they might not win as it is easier to be anti than to create and be for something.

Speak more of this "quality" of growth, that can only happen with a small-ish college arena? They'll get bad retail and restaurants instead of good retail and restaurants if theres no arena? Apartments would be nicer with an arena?

UNP is a nice looking power center, and somehow has developed without an arena and according to Pete is the most visited shopping center in the state. Amazing how this happened without an arena, as well as against the anti-group of norman wishes.

I still think pro-arena people are looking at it wrongly. Most Norman people look at this arena as not the city of Norman's responsibility and the costs are too high. Its that simple.

[jn1780]

Speak more of this "quality" of growth, that can only happen with a small-ish college arena? They'll get bad retail and restaurants instead of good retail and restaurants if theres no arena? Apartments would be nicer with an arena?

UNP is a nice looking power center, and somehow has developed without an arena and according to Pete is the most visited shopping center in the state. Amazing how this happened without an arena, as well as against the anti-group of norman wishes.

I still think pro-arena people are looking at it wrongly. Most Norman people look at this arena as not the city of Norman's responsibility and the costs are too high. Its that simple.

That was what I was alluding to in post #2375. OKC just got done making its case on why any arena less than a billion dollars is 'garbage'. There's only so many chain restaurants and stores out there in the world.

[Rover]

Speak more of this "quality" of growth, that can only happen with a small-ish college arena? They'll get bad retail and restaurants instead of good retail and restaurants if theres no arena? Apartments would be nicer with an arena?

UNP is a nice looking power center, and somehow has developed without an arena and according to Pete is the most visited shopping center in the state. Amazing how this happened without an arena, as well as against the anti-group of norman wishes.

I still think pro-arena people are looking at it wrongly. Most Norman people look at this arena as not the city of Norman's responsibility and the costs are too high. Its that simple.

Everyone is so energized to stop OU that they ignore the developer bringing 100s of millions of dollars and new quality development to the city... willing to do in one fell swoop what will take others decades to do. It is silly to think they will make this huge investment to bring in inferior businesses. This small town protectionism of certain Normanites and their resentment of OU is pretty dangerous to the long term development of Norman as a high quality community. Norman won't die if they don't pass this, but they won't realize their potential either. It will be decades to match this .... decade and decades of lost potential. And people wonder why we can't have nice things in Oklahoma. It is this kind of provincialism. Fortunately there are other areas in the metro who would be glad to have this kind of shot in the arm.

[s00nr1]

and there is why it will fail and hurt norman. part of the opposition keeps talking about wanting it on campus to make it better for students, when students don't care. and the other doesn't want it to affect the norman budget, but can't seem to wrap their head around the idea that he won't affect the norman budget. even the money for schools piece just shows that it gets paid of significantly quicker and then the money can get to schools.

who have two groups of people who don't want to believe the facts and so are working together

To be fair, the product OU is putting out there right now is not going to put butts in the seats, regardless of facility type / location. For an arena that will be sitting quiet most nights of the year, and without the student base being adjacent / nearby, I don't see how additional development will just "explode."

[bamarsha]

To be fair, the product OU is putting out there right now is not going to put butts in the seats, regardless of facility type / location. For an arena that will be sitting quiet most nights of the year, and without the student base being adjacent / nearby, I don't see how additional development will just "explode."

Careful... the women are ranked #9 in both polls!!! (Yeah, they don't have CC, but they are good!)

[Rover]

To be fair, the product OU is putting out there right now is not going to put butts in the seats, regardless of facility type / location. For an arena that will be sitting quiet most nights of the year, and without the student base being adjacent / nearby, I don't see how additional development will just "explode."

Student attendance has never been the bulk of attendance. Growth in attendance from OKC population which enjoys better pre-game, in-game, and post-game experiences will drive commerce around and in the stadium and provide a robust entertainment area environment even when there are not events. Hopefully, students who fail to go because they aren't as rah rah loyal to their school teams as students of the 1950s will be coaxed back by the sushi restaurants and cocktail bars and general coolness of the experience. Entertainment areas surrounding venues are popular and being built all over the country because they draw consumers of entertainment and create fun environments. Oklahoma is often slow to recognize and support positive trends in real estate development and facilities. OKC is getting much better but Norman is still lagging due to a provincial mentality of a few but vocal people.

For all the on campus advocates, that kind of enhanced environment will never be developed on or south of campus which is inconvenient for most of the OKC population to get to. It isn't just about the students but also all us alums who would more often frequent a more convenient and engaging game experience.

Norman can stay stuck in the nostalgic 50s or try to grow with the times.

[jedicurt]

To be fair, the product OU is putting out there right now is not going to put butts in the seats, regardless of facility type / location. For an arena that will be sitting quiet most nights of the year, and without the student base being adjacent / nearby, I don't see how additional development will just "explode."

womens gymnastics had more sellouts last year in lloyd nobel than mens basketball. and that wasn't by students. again, students don't matter in this conversation because they just don't go. it's about making it easier for alum, who actually do go to events

[Rover]

womens gymnastics had more sellouts last year in lloyd nobel than mens basketball. and that wasn't by students. again, students don't matter in this conversation because they just don't go. it's about making it easier for alum, who actually do go to events

And make donations..... big and small. And send their kids to school there.

[TornadoKegan]

It looks like they are starting on the foundation for the main event. I will try to get photos later this week

[BG918]

womens gymnastics had more sellouts last year in lloyd nobel than mens basketball. and that wasn't by students. again, students don't matter in this conversation because they just don't go. it's about making it easier for alum, who actually do go to events

There hasn’t been an on-campus arena. LNC is a mile south of campus. You can’t compare something that doesn’t currently exist.

OU is in the midst of an historic building boom as it relates to student housing on-campus. When the master plan is completed in 2030 there will be over 5,000 students living along Lindsey. Another 2,000 students will be living in East Campus west of the RR tracks not to mention future private housing developments along University Blvd in CC that will house another thousand students. OU will have a concentration of students it has never had before that will be able to easily walk to football/basketball games. If the team is good the students will show up.

[BoulderSooner]

There hasn’t been an on-campus arena. LNC is a mile south of campus. You can’t compare something that doesn’t currently exist.

OU is in the midst of an historic building boom as it relates to student housing on-campus. When the master plan is completed in 2030 there will be over 5,000 students living along Lindsey. Another 2,000 students will be living in East Campus west of the RR tracks not to mention future private housing developments along University Blvd in CC that will house another thousand students. OU will have a concentration of students it has never had before that will be able to easily walk to football/basketball games. If the team is good the students will show up.

while I agree with your general thoughts ..... the LNC is very much on campus ..

[Rover]

while I agree with your general thoughts ..... the LNC is very much on campus ..

Techically, maybe . More accurately, it is on OU owned property far south of the academic campus and about a mile from the dormitories. Im curious as to what percentage of students who actually do go get there by walking. Im guessing very few.

[MagzOK]

Techically, maybe . More accurately, it is on OU owned property far south of the academic campus and about a mile from the dormitories. Im curious as to what percentage of students who actually do go get there by walking. Im guessing very few.

No maybe about it -- it is on campus. Also, there is OU housing a half block north of the Lloyd Noble Center and a half block west, not to mention apartments in the area. I walked to Lloyd Noble many times from Walker back in the day. It's not bad and really though it is a little further, it's not that much more of a walk from the quad as it is to the union.

[jedicurt]

You can’t compare something that doesn’t currently exist.

I mean we have something that currently exists... look at how many students just leave after the 1st quarter or the 1st half of football. it's pretty clear that students (for the most part) don't care about sports other than as a social event for a few minutes. To think that they will just magically stay for basketball in any real quantity is just fiction.

[Rover]

No maybe about it -- it is on campus. Also, there is OU housing a half block north of the Lloyd Noble Center and a half block west, not to mention apartments in the area. I walked to Lloyd Noble many times from Walker back in the day. It's not bad and really though it is a little further, it's not that much more of a walk from the quad as it is to the union.

My question still stands about students walking there. Never see foot traffic between the campus and Lloyd Nobel when I go to bb games. But parking lot is active. Bball being a winter sport is usually at night most likely discourages pedestrian activity when dark and cold and a pretty fair hike.

And yes, as I agreed it is technically it on campus but not central and not conveniently located. For the few dozen more students who might walk there are thousands of alums who would appreciate a more convenient and time efficient location, not to mention a lively atmosphere in and outside of the arena itself. Leaving the game and going next door for a beer and nachos waiting for traffic to clear is way more appealing than walking past darkened classroom buildings to a parking garage or out into a dark lot.

[MagzOK]

My question still stands about students walking there. Never see foot traffic between the campus and Lloyd Nobel when I go to bb games. But parking lot is active. Bball being a winter sport is usually at night most likely discourages pedestrian activity when dark and cold and a pretty fair hike.

And yes, as I agreed it is technically it on campus but not central and not conveniently located. For the few dozen more students who might walk there are thousands of alums who would appreciate a more convenient and time efficient location, not to mention a lively atmosphere in and outside of the arena itself. Leaving the game and going next door for a beer and nachos waiting for traffic to clear is way more appealing than walking past darkened classroom buildings to a parking garage or out into a dark lot.

Can't disagree with you on the modern student walking all the way down there. Many of us walked down there to watch during the Kelvin Sampson era. Never missed a game!

Personally, I don't mind a new arena there at the Town Center. I agree with what you're saying leaving to a fun lively atmosphere. That being said, I would rather it be on campus so I can directly impact my kids in the brainwashing while walking through campus to get to games. I would've liked the old field house to be renovated and added on to. Supposedly that wasn't an option so UTC will be cool. It will also be neat to see the OU branding right there for everyone to see on 35.

[bamarsha]

Can't disagree with you on the modern student walking all the way down there. Many of us walked down there to watch during the Kelvin Sampson era. Never missed a game!

The Minor Meter! Those were the days! I rarely missed a men's or women's game the 3 years I went there... I always drove, but I never lived on campus. The men's games were almost always sellouts while, other than employees and relatives, it seemed like I was the only other one at the women's games. How times have changed.