University Town Center

[BoulderSooner]

"My town gets lots of benefits from this school thats been here for a long time so us citizens must approve a billion dollar incentive package for a new arena." Im sorry but this is just a ridiculous argument.

Its funny in another thread theres talk about how much it is to buy out Venables for $40+ million and Im sure some want it to happen. And then many of those same people think Norman must do everything for this new arena because OU just cant raise the money and Norman owes it to OU.

this costs the city 0.00 dollars ..

[Rover]

"My town gets lots of benefits from this school thats been here for a long time so us citizens must approve a billion dollar incentive package for a new arena." Im sorry but this is just a ridiculous argument.

Its funny in another thread theres talk about how much it is to buy out Venables for $40+ million and Im sure some want it to happen. And then many of those same people think Norman must do everything for this new arena because OU just cant raise the money and Norman owes it to OU.

I believe the city will only give up something it isnt going to get anyway, and still make money. Plus, the developer is putting up hundreds of millions of dollars to make it happen. City grows, city benefits, city risks nothing, city has much higher profile. Or the city can do nothing and stay as it is for a very long time.

The people who vote against this would likely turn down someone wanting to give them a free $100 preferring to hold out for $500 they will never get.

[jedicurt]

The people who vote against this would likely turn down someone wanting to give them a free $100 preferring to hold out for $500 they will never get.

this is a perfect comparison. this land has sat empty and ready for development for 20 years, there is now a proposal to actually develop it, and the people of Norman are like "we don't want to have to pay for it, even though we really won't be paying for it, because it will just develop on it's own, even though it hasn't in 20 years"

[BoulderSooner]

this is a perfect comparison. this land has sat empty and ready for development for 20 years, there is now a proposal to actually develop it, and the people of Norman are like "we don't want to have to pay for it, even though we really won't be paying for it, because it will just develop on it's own, even though it hasn't in 20 years"

well said

[FighttheGoodFight]

I will be honest, I didnt really know the arguments against this TIF until I read Cynthia Rogers blog outlining the funding and how it works. https://tif-ed.blogspot.com

Interesting arguments there where I see the most issue is the school funding as well as the shift in consumer spending to the area at the sake of other parts of town.

[Pete]

I will be honest, I didnt really know the arguments against this TIF until I read Cynthia Rogers blog outlining the funding and how it works. https://tif-ed.blogspot.com

Interesting arguments there where I see the most issue is the school funding as well as the shift in consumer spending to the area at the sake of other parts of town.

I explained how TIF works here:

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.p...605#post847605

[BoulderSooner]

I will be honest, I didnt really know the arguments against this TIF until I read Cynthia Rogers blog outlining the funding and how it works. https://tif-ed.blogspot.com

Interesting arguments there where I see the most issue is the school funding as well as the shift in consumer spending to the area at the sake of other parts of town.

the rent rates in this new retail .. are over 4x the average rent rate in Norman .. this will be be lots of new retail ..

[jedicurt]

Interesting arguments there where I see the most issue is the school funding as well as the shift in consumer spending to the area at the sake of other parts of town.

yes they always leave out that these parcels have not contributed to school funding for over 20 years now that it has been ready for development. So the statement is that they are saying empty land not contributing to school funding is better than developed land not contributing.

[Jersey Boss]

yes they always leave out that these parcels have not contributed to school funding for over 20 years now that it has been ready for development. So the statement is that they are saying empty land not contributing to school funding is better than developed land not contributing.

Where proponents fail in this argument is that with adding residences over there the need for more school resources will increase. Yet those residences will not be contributing financially for what will be needed, be it teachers, books or a new school. For 25 years. So either services will be cut or taxes on the rest of the city will increase. Undeveloped land has no need for contributing to school funding. Undeveloped land does not have a need for classrooms.

[onthestrip]

this costs the city 0.00 dollars ..

You're right, only if this area stays 100% undeveloped for the next 25 years. And thats not very believable with the rate that the southern portion of UNP has matured. Development will naturally keep occurring in this proposed TIF district even without an arena. This land is perfect for apartments, even without an arena, and I guarantee they will happen even if this is voted down. Yet its pretty clear OU is working in tandem with the apartment developer to see that they get built after the TIF district is approved so all the apartment ad valorem money will flow back to the arena costs/financing. Its just one thing OU is trying to tee up to add to their TIF collections. Just part of the games they are playing with the numbers to make it look as rosy as they can.

I still think most of you have Norman citizens all wrong. Its not that they hate OU, dont understand the TIF, or hate growth, they simply dont think the city should be responsible in a major way for what is a dedicated OU facility. City of Norman, the county, or some newly formed public body doesnt want or need to own and operate an arena.

[bison34]

You're right, only if this area stays 100% undeveloped for the next 25 years. And thats not very believable with the rate that the southern portion of UNP has matured. Development will naturally keep occurring in this proposed TIF district even without an arena. This land is perfect for apartments, even without an arena, and I guarantee they will happen even if this is voted down. Yet its pretty clear OU is working in tandem with the apartment developer to see that they get built after the TIF district is approved so all the apartment ad valorem money will flow back to the arena costs/financing. Its just one thing OU is trying to tee up to add to their TIF collections. Just part of the games they are playing with the numbers to make it look as rosy as they can.

I still think most of you have Norman citizens all wrong. Its not that they hate OU, dont understand the TIF, or hate growth, they simply dont think the city should be responsible in a major way for what is a dedicated OU facility. City of Norman, the county, or some newly formed public body doesnt want or need to own and operate an arena.

What does this cost Norman?

[onthestrip]

What does this cost Norman?

Immediately it costs them the sales taxes they collected at LLoyd Noble concessions.

And I just laid it out how it will cost them when anything that would naturally develop in this district would then go to pay for the arena rather than into the city's coffers. Not everything that will get built in this district will be because of a college arena. College arenas arent a huge attraction for new development. Almost zero prospective apartment dwellers make a decision to live there because of a college arena. A Harkins Theater would probably bring more ancillary development than this arena.

Again though, whether the costs to the city end up being minimal or not, Im guessing most citizens say no because they dont think the city should be involved in any way of the building of a new arena for OU. Asking, "Why do we need to bail them out just because they cant or wont do it on their own like almost every other college?" Its a simple as that.

[FighttheGoodFight]

Immediately it costs them the sales taxes they collected at LLoyd Noble concessions.

And I just laid it out how it will cost them when anything that would naturally develop in this district would then go to pay for the arena rather than into the city's coffers. Not everything that will get built in this district will be because of a college arena. College arenas arent a huge attraction for new development. Almost zero prospective apartment dwellers make a decision to live there because of a college arena. A Harkins Theater would probably bring more ancillary development than this arena.

Again though, whether the costs to the city end up being minimal or not, Im guessing most citizens say no because they dont think the city should be involved in any way of the building of a new arena for OU. Asking, "Why do we need to bail them out just because they cant or wont do it on their own like almost every other college?" Its a simple as that.

This makes an interesting point. Would this have been easier to sell if this was a Norman arena with an option to lease it to OU for a certain price. Would that go over better with citizens? Food for thought.

[Jersey Boss]

This makes an interesting point. Would this have been easier to sell if this was a Norman arena with an option to lease it to OU for a certain price. Would that go over better with citizens? Food for thought.

I don't think so. The $600M for 25 years is what the objection is. OU could sweeten the deal by deeding over the LNC to the City of Norman.

Possibly related/unrelated. Norman opened up a new library in 2019 that cost more than $39M. It is now closed because of mold with no reopen date known. I don't know the temp here on taking on something of this magnitude.

[BG918]

Keeping UNP as retail, apartments and businesses generates a significant amount of sales tax vs. building an arena that sits empty most of the year. The best option for Norman is for OU to build its own arena at Brooks & Jenkins on land that is currently surface parking. Then when there are events the existing local businesses in Campus Corner/downtown get the primary benefit which leads to additional development of local and national businesses in central Norman.

[bison34]

Keeping UNP as retail, apartments and businesses generates a significant amount of sales tax vs. building an arena that sits empty most of the year. The best option for Norman is for OU to build its own arena at Brooks & Jenkins on land that is currently surface parking. Then when there are events the existing local businesses in Campus Corner/downtown get the primary benefit which leads to additional development of local and national businesses in central Norman.

It's been 15 years, and nothing, and I mean nothing, has even been remotely proposed for south of Rock Creek in UNP. The only proposals have been OU, trying to activate an area where no one at all wants to develop.

Now, we will end up with some crappy strip malls that are not the best and highest use of the area.

Heck, there may be no other tenants for the types of retail that will end up there, so it will take forever to develop.

But way to go, Norman. Have fun with your empty lot for the next 15 to 20 years. Meanwhile, students leave Norman as fast as they can after graduation, since no companies are relocating or growing there, and job opportunities are dying.

[BG918]

But way to go, Norman. Have fun with your empty lot for the next 15 to 20 years. Meanwhile, students leave Norman as fast as they can after graduation, since no companies are relocating or growing there, and job opportunities are dying.

How about instead of TIF for arena entertainment district the same funds could go toward building infrastructure for the advanced manufacturing business park that has long been envisioned for the north part of UNP. That is a way to attract new businesses to Norman that want/need access to I-35 and/or the airport.

[Pete]

How about instead of TIF for arena entertainment district the same funds could go toward building infrastructure for the advanced manufacturing business park that has long been envisioned for the north part of UNP. That is a way to attract new businesses to Norman that want/need access to I-35 and/or the airport.

There is no reason Norman can't go the route of OKC and have multiple TIF districts.

[Rover]

Where proponents fail in this argument is that with adding residences over there the need for more school resources will increase. Yet those residences will not be contributing financially for what will be needed, be it teachers, books or a new school. For 25 years. So either services will be cut or taxes on the rest of the city will increase. Undeveloped land has no need for contributing to school funding. Undeveloped land does not have a need for classrooms.

So, the entertainment district will add students to the roll based on its development? I don’t get it. How many new students will the schools expect based on what is actually being developed on this land? I really don’t see a lot of kids living at a gymnasium or bar.

If the development spurs new housing, won’t that be nearby on sites which will contribute and not be part of the TIF? What am I missing? Does nearby housing get exempted from property taxes based on the TIF? How does this development drive up school costs?

[bison34]

So, the entertainment district will add students to the roll based on its development? I don’t get it. How many new students will the schools expect based on what is actually being developed on this land? I really don’t see a lot of kids living at a gymnasium or bar.

If the development spurs new housing, won’t that be nearby on sites which will contribute and not be part of the TIF? What am I missing? Does nearby housing get exempted from property taxes based on the TIF? How does this development drive up school costs?

And, a development like this will drive up property values of the surrounding already developed areas, living next to an arena and other stores, bars, and restaurants, yet out of the downtown core.

[Jersey Boss]

So, the entertainment district will add students to the roll based on its development? I don’t get it. How many new students will the schools expect based on what is actually being developed on this land? I really don’t see a lot of kids living at a gymnasium or bar.

If the development spurs new housing, won’t that be nearby on sites which will contribute and not be part of the TIF? What am I missing? Does nearby housing get exempted from property taxes based on the TIF? How does this development drive up school costs?

3000 new housing units in proposed district.
https://www.news9.com/story/66ecab71...etball%20arena.

[BoulderSooner]

This makes an interesting point. Would this have been easier to sell if this was a Norman arena with an option to lease it to OU for a certain price. Would that go over better with citizens? Food for thought.

the arena will be leased to OU at a price ..

[bison34]

3000 new housing units in proposed district.
https://www.news9.com/story/66ecab71...etball%20arena.

And they would only spend money in the distrust. They won't go to Target or Crest, right? Because that is what people think. Plus, Norman couldn't use that property tax revenue for operations, since that violates state law. Other places in Norman would receive a large uptick in sales tax revenue, but not anymore.

Not like Norman is swimming in new citizens or large developments.

[onthestrip]

So, the entertainment district will add students to the roll based on its development? I don’t get it. How many new students will the schools expect based on what is actually being developed on this land? I really don’t see a lot of kids living at a gymnasium or bar.

If the development spurs new housing, won’t that be nearby on sites which will contribute and not be part of the TIF? What am I missing? Does nearby housing get exempted from property taxes based on the TIF? How does this development drive up school costs?

3000 new housing units in proposed district.
https://www.news9.com/story/66ecab71...etball%20arena.

As the link from Jersey Boss shows, lots of housing it teed up for this district? Why so many so quickly? Because thats more ad valorem that will flow back to OU's arena. Build a bunch of apartments and welcome a high taxable assessed value from the county assessor and the money comes flowing back to pay for the arena and not to schools, county health, etc. If you think that 3,000 housing units would only be happening because of the arena then you are quite gullible. There is already a natural market for housing here without an arena.

[bison34]

As the link from Jersey Boss shows, lots of housing it teed up for this district? Why so many so quickly? Because thats more ad valorem that will flow back to OU's arena. Build a bunch of apartments and welcome a high taxable assessed value from the county assessor and the money comes flowing back to pay for the arena and not to schools, county health, etc. If you think that 3,000 housing units would only be happening because of the arena then you are quite gullible. There is already a natural market for housing here without an arena.

There is? Where are these developments you speak of? Norman literally just had a mixed-use development with retail over housing changed to a giant strip mall. Housing isn't being built like you think it is in Norman, at least not apartments.