University Town Center

[jedicurt]

so where was all the outrage on the TIF district to Main street to beautify it? why can't those business owners pay for that on their own? it's such a dumb idea to suggest, because even if this builds naturally over the next 30 years, public money is still going to be used for lots of it.

[bison34]

so where was all the outrage on the TIF district to Main street to beautify it? why can't those business owners pay for that on their own? it's such a dumb idea to suggest, because even if this builds naturally over the next 30 years, public money is still going to be used for lots of it.

It likely is 100% the amount, and who it benefits. Norman citizens don't love OU.

[BG918]

so where was all the outrage on the TIF district to Main street to beautify it? why can't those business owners pay for that on their own? it's such a dumb idea to suggest, because even if this builds naturally over the next 30 years, public money is still going to be used for lots of it.

Apples and oranges. The Main Street TIF has led to the urban revitalization of the city center which benefits all of Norman. UNP is an entertainment district next to a strip mall on the interstate.

[bison34]

Apples and oranges. The Main Street TIF has led to the urban revitalization of the city center which benefits all of Norman. UNP is an entertainment district next to a strip mall on the interstate.

With stores all of Norman goes.to frequently. I don't love the project, but UNP is the busiest shopping center in the state, by far. So to say this doesn't benefit all of Norman is borderline asinine, and should disqualify you from speaking on this project. Especially since you are in Tulsa, 140 miles away from UNP and Norman.

[Rover]

Apples and oranges. The Main Street TIF has led to the urban revitalization of the city center which benefits all of Norman. UNP is an entertainment district next to a strip mall on the interstate.

So, if it was moved a couple miles south and east it would all be okay then?

I’d check the sales tax records to see the relative financial impact on the city.

I’d also like to see a downtown Norman developer spend hundreds of millions to create a new venue and tax income stream for the city while enhancing its biggest city business, the University of Oklahoma. Please someone step up to partner both with the city and with the university. Don’t see anyone else doing it for a very, very long time.

[jedicurt]

Norman citizens don't love OU.

exactly this... and i have no clue why. most of the people on my block always complain about OU, but this city wouldn't be even remotely close to what it is, without the University. I have never lived somewhere before and see people so opposed to things that are good for it, and hate the very thing that makes it exist in the first place

[BG918]

With stores all of Norman goes.to frequently. I don't love the project, but UNP is the busiest shopping center in the state, by far. So to say this doesn't benefit all of Norman is borderline asinine, and should disqualify you from speaking on this project. Especially since you are in Tulsa, 140 miles away from UNP and Norman.

I own rental properties in Norman so as a taxpayer I think I can speak about developments in the city. And one that can continue the revitalization of Campus Corner/ downtown Norman vs suck energy from it (the UNP “entertainment district”) will 100% have my support.

I want OU to have a new arena, LNC is terrible. And the renderings look great - build that exact same thing at Brooks & Jenkins on land OU already owns, like every other university that has built a new arena in the past 30 years. Look at what schools with a lot less resources than OU have successfully done like Auburn, Baylor, Texas Tech, Ole Miss, etc

[bison34]

I own rental properties in Norman so as a taxpayer I think I can speak about developments in the city. And one that can continue the revitalization of Campus Corner/ downtown Norman vs suck energy from it (the UNP “entertainment district”) will 100% have my support.

I want OU to have a new arena, LNC is terrible. And the renderings look great - build that exact same thing at Brooks & Jenkins on land OU already owns, like every other university that has built a new arena in the past 30 years. Look at what schools with a lot less resources than OU have successfully done like Auburn, Baylor, Texas Tech, Ole Miss, etc

Money...no developer wants to help out and build it there, they want to build it at UNP. OU has a donor problem: their donors suck, and OU doesn't have many BMDs (big money donors). So yeah, until the money gets found, someway, this is the best option. Norman will never help OU, even though they would benefit immensely from a new arena for OU.

Again it comes down to this: OU has minimal big-money donors, so it would take years to fundraise for an arena. OU is smart to try this, and if it passes, great. If not, they will seek other alternatives, either another city or by some other method.

[BG918]

Money...no developer wants to help out and build it there, they want to build it at UNP. OU has a donor problem: their donors suck, and OU doesn't have many BMDs (big money donors). So yeah, until the money gets found, someway, this is the best option. Norman will never help OU, even though they would benefit immensely from a new arena for OU.

Again it comes down to this: OU has minimal big-money donors, so it would take years to fundraise for an arena. OU is smart to try this, and if it passes, great. If not, they will seek other alternatives, either another city or by some other method.

OU has plenty of big donors - present a plan to build a new arena on-campus and it will have support from donors, students and Norman residents. This would be the center piece of the largest TOD in the metro outside of downtown OKC.

[BimmerSooner]

Money...no developer wants to help out and build it there, they want to build it at UNP. OU has a donor problem: their donors suck, and OU doesn't have many BMDs (big money donors). So yeah, until the money gets found, someway, this is the best option. Norman will never help OU, even though they would benefit immensely from a new arena for OU.

Again it comes down to this: OU has minimal big-money donors, so it would take years to fundraise for an arena. OU is smart to try this, and if it passes, great. If not, they will seek other alternatives, either another city or by some other method.

OU has plenty of big money donors. This is a 100% business decision and has been in the works for many years. OU hasn't built a new arena because they don't have the money, they haven't built one because they are trying to get it built with minimal capital investment out of their own coffers. Why build one yourself for $350 million when you can possibly get someone else to build it for $100 million investment and, simultaneously, create a unique entertainment district around it? Not to mention a lease vs. the long-term ownership costs. It's a no-brainer. Don't mistake not having built an on-campus arena yet being because of a lack of money. That's a lazy, but predictable, take. The reality is much more complex.

They knew the path to this wouldn't be short and easy, and they'll continue to pursue this option if and until it is clear that it can't get done. Then they will either increase their ante to compensate for the lack of TIF, the project will get scaled back to something that can be done without TIF, or some combination of thereof. The last option, if these can't be worked out, would be to build it back on campus.

[bamarsha]

OU has plenty of big money donors. This is a 100% business decision and has been in the works for many years. OU hasn't built a new arena because they don't have the money, they haven't built one because they are trying to get it built with minimal capital investment out of their own coffers. Why build one yourself for $350 million when you can possibly get someone else to build it for $100 million investment and, simultaneously, create a unique entertainment district around it? Not to mention a lease vs. the long-term ownership costs. It's a no-brainer. Don't mistake not having built an on-campus arena yet being because of a lack of money. That's a lazy, but predictable, take. The reality is much more complex.

They knew the path to this wouldn't be short and easy, and they'll continue to pursue this option if and until it is clear that it can't get done. Then they will either increase their ante to compensate for the lack of TIF, the project will get scaled back to something that can be done without TIF, or some combination of thereof. The last option, if these can't be worked out, would be to build it back on campus.

Part of that is that OU is 100% a football school with some softball on the side (though gymnastics and golf should be mentioned more). Unfortunately, basketball is an afterthought (especially with the Thunder around). Why put a basketball facility on a football campus. Just leave it as is or let other people help in a location that benefits them (or the city).

[bamarsha]

Duplicate - please delete.

[BG918]

Part of that is that OU is 100% a football school with some softball on the side (though gymnastics and golf should be mentioned more). Unfortunately, basketball is an afterthought (especially with the Thunder around). Why put a basketball facility on a football campus. Just leave it as is or let other people help in a location that benefits them (or the city).

The LNC does not just hold basketball games. There are lots of other university and non-university events there throughout the year. Specifically graduation ceremonies, new student orientation and concerts that are better held on the OU campus vs. at LNC or UNP.

But these four items are the biggest benefit of an on-campus area:
1. Proximity to student housing - already more 8,000 students live within a mile radius and that number will only increase as additional student apartments get built along the Jenkins corridor from OU to downtown Norman, and around Boyd & Jenkins where there are two active proposals that will increase housing density by 500+ beds.
2. Proximity to Campus Corner and downtown Norman - an on-campus arena is walking distance from both of these areas which will increase business before/after games and lead to further revitalization of these areas.
3. Parking dispersal - the new arena would likely utilize existing surface parking at the Duck Pond but would also be able to leverage existing and future parking garages on-campus to disperse parking so people are coming and going from different locations, resulting in less traffic jams after games. UNP will be an absolute nightmare with traffic due to the lack of multiple ingress/egress points.
4. Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) - this arena would be less than 1/4 mile from a stop on the future Edmond-OKC-Norman commuter rail line allowing fans from OKC/Edmond the ability to park at a station further north and ride the train to games.

[David]

The LNC does not just hold basketball games. There are lots of other university and non-university events there throughout the year. Specifically graduation ceremonies, new student orientation and concerts that are better held on the OU campus vs. at LNC or UNP.

But these four items are the biggest benefit of an on-campus area:
1. Proximity to student housing - already more 8,000 students live within a mile radius and that number will only increase as additional student apartments get built along the Jenkins corridor from OU to downtown Norman, and around Boyd & Jenkins where there are two active proposals that will increase housing density by 500+ beds.
2. Proximity to Campus Corner and downtown Norman - an on-campus arena is walking distance from both of these areas which will increase business before/after games and lead to further revitalization of these areas.
3. Parking dispersal - the new arena would likely utilize existing surface parking at the Duck Pond but would also be able to leverage existing and future parking garages on-campus to disperse parking so people are coming and going from different locations, resulting in less traffic jams after games. UNP will be an absolute nightmare with traffic due to the lack of multiple ingress/egress points.
4. Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) - this arena would be less than 1/4 mile from a stop on the future Edmond-OKC-Norman commuter rail line allowing fans from OKC/Edmond the ability to park at a station further north and ride the train to games.

Pretty much all of this is why I would refer to the off-campus arena idea as silly.

[bison34]

Pretty much all of this is why I would refer to the off-campus arena idea as silly.

I have one counter: money. It's easy to say all of this when it isn't your money that's being spent.

No one has offered to help fund an on-campus arena. Most new arenas at the college level are funded by at least one pilot donation that is very large.

And there has not been one for a new arena for OU.

[bamarsha]

The LNC does not just hold basketball games. There are lots of other university and non-university events there throughout the year. Specifically graduation ceremonies, new student orientation and concerts that are better held on the OU campus vs. at LNC or UNP.

But these four items are the biggest benefit of an on-campus area:
1. Proximity to student housing - already more 8,000 students live within a mile radius and that number will only increase as additional student apartments get built along the Jenkins corridor from OU to downtown Norman, and around Boyd & Jenkins where there are two active proposals that will increase housing density by 500+ beds.
2. Proximity to Campus Corner and downtown Norman - an on-campus arena is walking distance from both of these areas which will increase business before/after games and lead to further revitalization of these areas.
3. Parking dispersal - the new arena would likely utilize existing surface parking at the Duck Pond but would also be able to leverage existing and future parking garages on-campus to disperse parking so people are coming and going from different locations, resulting in less traffic jams after games. UNP will be an absolute nightmare with traffic due to the lack of multiple ingress/egress points.
4. Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) - this arena would be less than 1/4 mile from a stop on the future Edmond-OKC-Norman commuter rail line allowing fans from OKC/Edmond the ability to park at a station further north and ride the train to games.

While the first 3 points are valid (very few people outside of this forum will likely ride a commuter train), that really doesn’t matter if the money isn’t there. LNC will do fine for a football school… at least until someone donates millions of dollars to make the basketball (plus) facility on campus… especially when McCasland Field House is still available for the non-revenue sports that want to be on campus.

[onthestrip]

I have one counter: money. It's easy to say all of this when it isn't your money that's being spent.

No one has offered to help fund an on-campus arena. Most new arenas at the college level are funded by at least one pilot donation that is very large.

And there has not been one for a new arena for OU.

And this is probably 80% of why Norman citizens dont support the UNP arena. They are asking themselves why should their city heavily subsidize an arena that OU cant or wont try to build on their own. So OU doesnt have a few big time donors to get a new arena going, or that they are redirecting donations to NIL, and so city of Norman should fund it instead? Its a simple as that.

[bison34]

And this is probably 80% of why Norman citizens dont support the UNP arena. They are asking themselves why should their city heavily subsidize an arena that OU cant or wont try to build on their own. So OU doesnt have a few big time donors to get a new arena going, or that they are redirecting donations to NIL, and so city of Norman should fund it instead? Its a simple as that.

Have you looked at OUs alumni base? It may be one of the smallest, poorest in the Power 4 conferences. So working them for a lot of money is very hard to do. Just my opinion.

They could, if given 5 years, raise for an arena, sure. But fundraising has been lagging, compared to other schools.

[jedicurt]

And one that can continue the revitalization of Campus Corner/ downtown Norman vs suck energy from it (the UNP “entertainment district”) will 100% have my support.

this is such a bad argument.... things that will come to UNP aren't going to be things that would go to CC or downtown... they are two completely different markets that would attract different businesses. it's not an either/or proposition. i want to support things that will help Downtown and UNP... because that is possible.

[BG918]

this is such a bad argument.... things that will come to UNP aren't going to be things that would go to CC or downtown... they are two completely different markets that would attract different businesses. it's not an either/or proposition. i want to support things that will help Downtown and UNP... because that is possible.

The land at UNP where the arena would be located is better for the City of Norman as sales tax-generating retail and/or apartments. Or build what was originally envisioned for this parcel which was an office park focused on advanced manufacturing and aerospace/engineering-related businesses which makes sense being next to an airport. That along with retail/apartments would be a significant revenue generator for Norman, and the off-the-interstate location makes it a perfect spot.

This is what was originally proposed:

[jedicurt]

The land at UNP where the arena would be located is better for the City of Norman as sales tax-generating retail and/or apartments. Or build what was originally envisioned for this parcel which was an office park focused on advanced manufacturing and aerospace/engineering-related businesses which makes sense being next to an airport.

This is what was originally proposed:

this is an idea that has just never come to fruition.... this isn't the land that the Arena was going to be on, this is back just north of the young center... that pond area was built like 10 years ago, and literally nothing has ever happened. the arena would go across 24th to the west.... so i'm not sure what you are saying???? Lets also not forget that this idea for that parcel you are talking about was envisioned over 15 years ago, and it never ever came close to being an actual idea of bringing a company in for it....

[Jeremy Martin]

It likely is 100% the amount, and who it benefits. Norman citizens don't love OU.

Lived in Norman from the age of 2-32 and now live just outside of Norman. I have numerous family and friends still in Norman. Not a single one of them doesn't love the university.
Some Norman residents may not but IMO they are a very small number.

[Boop]

It may get 11,000 signatures but I still think it will still pass anyway

[Rover]

And this is probably 80% of why Norman citizens dont support the UNP arena. They are asking themselves why should their city heavily subsidize an arena that OU cant or wont try to build on their own. So OU doesnt have a few big time donors to get a new arena going, or that they are redirecting donations to NIL, and so city of Norman should fund it instead? Its a simple as that.

And yet the citizens who will neverf suport activities at the U will gladly accept all the commerce and taxes generated by those that do from outside Norman, and they will gladly brag on the nice restaurants and businesses that exist because the university is there and provides them a market.

Support is a two way thing. Wanting it all in your favor with someone else footing the bill is wrong even if it is the “citizens”. Why should a donor in Altus write a big check that ultimately supports Norman? People can be so myopic.

[onthestrip]

And yet the citizens who will neverf suport activities at the U will gladly accept all the commerce and taxes generated by those that do from outside Norman, and they will gladly brag on the nice restaurants and businesses that exist because the university is there and provides them a market.

Support is a two way thing. Wanting it all in your favor with someone else footing the bill is wrong even if it is the “citizens”. Why should a donor in Altus write a big check that ultimately supports Norman? People can be so myopic.

"My town gets lots of benefits from this school thats been here for a long time so us citizens must approve a billion dollar incentive package for a new arena." Im sorry but this is just a ridiculous argument.

Its funny in another thread theres talk about how much it is to buy out Venables for $40+ million and Im sure some want it to happen. And then many of those same people think Norman must do everything for this new arena because OU just cant raise the money and Norman owes it to OU.